Importing of DTS files into LightWave: Discussion

#1 Personally I think that possible abuse of a tool should not get in the way of the tool creation, assuming the tool has genuine uses.

There are 1000's of things in the world which can be misused - but we still have them, cos they also have a genuine use. eg,

CD/DVD burners - downside: piracy
morphine - downside: recreational drug use
airplanes - transportation of all manner of illigal stuff
the list goes on forever......

If you can make it and it has a genuine use - go for it.

#2 Personally my thought is that it is probably best to leave the format closed.

I know that there are a lot of people who think that this will benefit them, but to be quiet honest it will not, if someone is going to learn from the model they are going to need the original file with all the settings (ie. as a Max user if I imported the model I would want all the modifiers, selection set, etc. in their original format that they were initially created in). There are plenty of example models, shapes, and documentation to cover to creation of DTS files that clearly cover the "I want to learn" aspect of a DTS importer.

If you want the importer because you need to modify the file the question has to be asked why you do not have the original working files that the DTS was generated from in the first place? Even if the model was generated in a 3D program you do not have, there are plenty of tools on the market for moving this data around between applications.

If someone wants to modify (or learn from) a DTS file they can contact the author and request it, if the author has no problems sharing the file they likely will. If they cannot share they usually do at the very least offer many helpful suggestions, hints, and help.

Another possible issue that arises is the artists IP, but this is an issue that can be argued until we are six feet under the ground. As Chris Walters has said, there is too much of a possibility that this will be misused and abused by "those types" of people. Artists would be protecting their work like hawks instead of concentrating on their work and helping the community out.

Thats my two cents on the subject.

Logan

#3 Whatever I could say has already been said by the above posters, but I feel the need to back them up.

Don't do it. Nobody responsible should need this tool; Back up your work so you always have an original.

#4 If this were relased to the public, there would be no way to prevent asset theft. I would not want end users able to modify the assets in the games I am making unless I want them to.

I do not see how useful this would be the the developer as they should have access to the source they are creating it from, and as Logan pointed out, it will make artists less liley to share knowing that their work can be taken back to the source without their knowledge and consent.

If there is a legitimate use for this, I would need a better argument to convince me that this is worth doing. I think the idea has merit, and I want to see more people making games and gettings assets into the TGE, but I think the nagatives outweigh the positives in this situation.

Perahps a small fee would discourage end users (i.e. game purchasers) from getting the tool?

#5 Personally, I like the licenses used in a number of games (such as Half-Life and Unreal) that only allow non-commercial use for their content, and often only in conjunction with the original software product.

As to supplying the source for the importer, that would be a very different thing that would depend on whether or not the GarageGames staff want the format revealed.

Of course, I may have misread the topic. I'm extremely tired and have been unravelling someone else's Perl code all day.

#6 HHmm... tough call. Certainly don't want to have apathy ("I only make the tool--I don't make them abuse it"), but not go the other way ("I won't even make the tool--everyone will do nothing but abuse with it").

I think gamers love to mod and change things. Polycount alone shows how much so. I tend to think it would benefit a game and extend it's life. Would certainly make it easier to do simple mods.

And, what is the lifetime of these models anyway? A few years?

I think the idea is kind of neat. I do realize, though, that my "we've gone IP-nuts" sentiment isn't shared by all. :-) I just think that some good things could come from it, with only a little concern of misuse.

Would it be possible to add a flag to the DTS format? 1=unlocked; 0=locked ?

-Eric Forhan, MRT

#7 I'm voting, "do it," but I'm not saying why, yet. I'm waiting until tomorrow, when we're all bright-eyed and bushy-tailed, before I get involved in *this* holy war :)

#8 I could definately see the usefullness of it... but the abuse potential is pretty high.

I would only vote "do it" if a DTS file could be locked, like Eric suggested. Otherwise, no.

#9 I say no. I agree with those above that if you have a legitimate right to the model you should have it in a format other than DTS and can nodify it there thus protecting the format.

#10 Something to consider: Since it can be done, would it be better to do it in a semi-controlled environment (as Dave has been kind enough to inform everyone) rather than the 'rogue' programmer?

Of course, most programmers won't have the intimate knowledge of the DTS format that Dave does. So, possibly the 'rogue' is really a non-issue?

-Eric

#11 since the format is available to anyone that can buy the Torque SDK what is stopping someone else from doing their own implementation themselves.

I have already been discussing this with my team and we are probably going to create our own signed "dts" format that would really then be private.

I think that would be the "best" solution, if you want to protect the file extend it with some sort of digitial signing or encryption.

Note: None of this will stop a really determined hacker from reverse engineering the format reading/writing code anyway. It just might make it so difficult so as not to be worth the trouble.

Personally I don't care either way, I have very little use to load up other peoples .dts models and animations anyway and muck about with them.

Just don't assume that if Dave does not write this, that no one else will be able to!

#12 Greetings!

Thanks for replying, everyone. It appears we have a decent cross-section of people here and a lot of well thought-out discussion.

It sounds like the majority of people here would prefer to treat the DTS and DSQ file formats in the same manner we do the DSO format: closed.

Based on this response, I've decided to not release such a product.

I'm glad I brought the topic up and was able to gather your opinions.

I also believe that Jarrod has some valid points that anyone who is concerned about the DTS/DSQ format for their games should consider.

Now, if someone does want to have a LightWave importer/export for their game variant DTS/DSQ format, feel free to give me a shout...I'm sure we can work something out. :o)

- LightWave Dave

#13 Can I dig this topic back up?

I say yes. Make the importer.

I am a C++/Python programmer and LightWave user (non-artist) and I am new to the Torque Engine team. I would love to start with a character DTS file (like the one that comes with the engine) and complete modify the model, textures and the animation sequences. As for the argument on IP... Hell. Nothing is stopping someone from using the DTS and textures files directly which is even more of a problem. If someone is worried about IP either encrypted the files for your app or hell... do not develop in an Open Source Environment.

I have the LightWave SDK and would like to write the importer my self but being so new I need to focus on my game and TGEPython.

Dave,

Sweet job on the exporter! Your plugin was the deciding factor for me to buy the Torque Engine. (Besides the fact that Torque kicks ass!)

#14 hmmm, well having a public importer would benefit this community more then it would hurt it, my bet is there would only be a handful of people that would misuse it , compared to the amount that would actually learn from it.

The models I have for my project were not made by me, though I did pay for them. If someone where to import them and make them better by adding new animations/skins/nodes/whatever, you think I'm going to be mad? Hell no.

This world was built on a single idea, and I see no reason why that single idea shouldn't be improved upon.

If the first car ever made would have been made so you cant open the engine compartment, or look under it to see how the drive train works, then we all would be driving around in a model A type vehicle still. (Yes, this reference is extreme but the principle is the same)

So I totally disagree with the skeptic's, having a dts importer will more then likely help then hurt, and just may be the reason why such a huge "coding" community like this is having a hard time with finding modeler's for there projects. (Well maybe not "the" reason but could be part of it.)

#15 But _how_ would the importer benefit the community, Ace? The assumption is there, but the reasoning isn't clearly stated.

Anyone who created a .dts should have the original .max or .ms3d or whatever. If they don't mind others modifying the file, then they can include the source files in their download. If they choose not to do this, who are we to make the decision for them?

#16 As Mark said : you have the .max file for the blue guy in the SDK, so you do not need an importer for it.
And if you need to modify an existing .dts, you really need to ask yourself where it's from, as the only time you'll have a .dts without the files in the original modeller's format is when you take an existing .dts shape from a game, or someone's project. It is then really dubious that you have any rights to modifying it, even if it's for internal use, ie placeholder art ? Then use it as is, or better yet, contact the author, and ask him either for the original files, or to commission work on the model you like so much :)
I really fail to see how anyone cannot realize the pandora's box that would be opened by such an importer, and the danger of conflicts resulting from this.
Worst case : because an importer exists, someone could have grounds to litigation if one of your shapes strongly ressemble another one, even if it was built from scratch, as who's to say that it was or wasn't imported, and then built upon ?
I think this is a good case of having something that could be really useful to individuals or teams at first glance, but having the potential of being seriously disruptive for the community.
I'd even go to the point that such disruption will happen if such an importer was made available.
Just my 0.02 Can :)

#17 as a guy who isnt an artist ..
and really needs content before he can make anything..
im glad you are not gonna release this :)
... wait a minute .. you didnt say import to milkshape therefore im out! :)

#18 I'm pretty sure the decision has been made. However, those who would like such an item might be able to hire Dave to create one--one which would likely require a non-standard DTS format.

-Eric

#19 Here is my grain of salt on this topic.

Indeed i think like most of the people who wrote before me, this kind of tools could be use for bad purposes. And usually people that have done the work keep their original (geez i hope so, i cant imagine having done that wonderfull piece of code in C then delete all my .H, .C files and only keep the executable) so they can easily load it up again to modify them.

In my opinion if you want the rest of the community make mod to your game you can let them create their own material from scratch (like the way it work now if i want to do some change in T2). Or you could also give out your original work model/texture with your distribution in the format they were (LW, Maya, 3D Max, etc...). Then let them play around with them, then simply add a license to warn them that they can only use them for mod in your game. (of course anyone can decide otherwise, but thats is like everything in life!)

Ohhh and what i think developpers should concentrate their energy on is to build more exporter to the DTS format. For now we have 3DMax, LightWave, MilkShape. But they are other modeler like Maya, Softimage XSI that still dont have one which mean 2 thing : one further step in the workflow and to buy 1 more software (quite expensive if you consider you just use the 2nd one as an exporting tools!)

#20 I think it would be a grave mistake not to make the importer. i mean if you dont whats to prevent a cracker or black hat hacker from reverse engineering it as is. plus most games now adays make more money off the ability to make modifications of the game, than the original game itself. look at Half-life:Counter Strike for example, how many copys would have been sold without the ability to mod the game in a graphical way.

when a gamer buys a game, they dont just buy it cause its new and looks pretty, they buy it to make it thiers, and part of making it thiers is thier ability to customize its look and feel to what they please.

by all technicality once they by the game they have every legal right to do with it as they please provided thier not pirating it or selling it and or mods to it. so what does it matter if they modify it, provided thier not violating the DMCA in the process, nor making a profit off of your work

-c0rTx