1.8 BugFixUpdate
by Caylo Gypsyblood · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 01/22/2009 (1:28 pm) · 10 replies
I have found many little bugs with TGEA1.8 in the C'code and especially with using the mission editor. Im sure with a bit of work i could fix some/most of them; but honestly i dont want to spend my time that way.
My question is; Are the TGEA SDK holders going to get all the little annoying bugs fixed BEFORE T3D? I kinda feel the little annoying bugs should have been fixed before T3D was a dream on the tip of someones tongue. It discourages me to read so much about the NEXT GG product, yet read nothing about finalizing TGEA.
I just received word that i should make ready to head back to work (will be in Alaska for 1week to 3 months with little to no internet), free time could be spent playing with TGEA- if it were not so frustrating.
I may have missed such information as i just got back on the 11'th from a similar job, but it would be nice to know what I can expect so i know what toys to pack.
My question is; Are the TGEA SDK holders going to get all the little annoying bugs fixed BEFORE T3D? I kinda feel the little annoying bugs should have been fixed before T3D was a dream on the tip of someones tongue. It discourages me to read so much about the NEXT GG product, yet read nothing about finalizing TGEA.
I just received word that i should make ready to head back to work (will be in Alaska for 1week to 3 months with little to no internet), free time could be spent playing with TGEA- if it were not so frustrating.
I may have missed such information as i just got back on the 11'th from a similar job, but it would be nice to know what I can expect so i know what toys to pack.
#2
As TGEA1.8 is right now, the mission editor is a horrible mess. I DIFF the script files from 1.7.1 and 1.8 and can see the bugs are not NEW. Some functions are FRESH busted in 1.8; others are still busted from 1.7. It would be plain and simple cheating to not see these bugs fixed. And soon.
It may seem like im just being a bitch; but i expect a minimal level of quality from the products i USE and spend money on. TGE1.5's mission editor was 98% bug free, lead me to expect the same from an "UPGRADE" TGEA. Am i wrong here? Also dont ask me to make a bug list or something; YOU take the time, explore the mission editor. Try all the functions. And be sure to grab one from the 1.8 SDK BUILD you have posted to your customers for download. If im unreasonable here let me know...
01/22/2009 (6:42 pm)
strong possibility of a TGEA 1.8.1 bug fix update is just NOT very reassuring. As TGEA1.8 is right now, the mission editor is a horrible mess. I DIFF the script files from 1.7.1 and 1.8 and can see the bugs are not NEW. Some functions are FRESH busted in 1.8; others are still busted from 1.7. It would be plain and simple cheating to not see these bugs fixed. And soon.
It may seem like im just being a bitch; but i expect a minimal level of quality from the products i USE and spend money on. TGE1.5's mission editor was 98% bug free, lead me to expect the same from an "UPGRADE" TGEA. Am i wrong here? Also dont ask me to make a bug list or something; YOU take the time, explore the mission editor. Try all the functions. And be sure to grab one from the 1.8 SDK BUILD you have posted to your customers for download. If im unreasonable here let me know...
#3
01/22/2009 (6:48 pm)
Bug list have been made and made and made ... do not hold your breath. you will get responses like "yep I am on it ... will roll the changes into the next update" and 2 versions will come and pass with the same bugs. Don't believe me? then go back through all these post in theses forums since before 1.7
#4
But it is not the silent little sneaky bugs that persist who bug me(yet it will be these bugs who cripple a project for no immediately obvious reason). Some bug are unavoidable, hard to even find/notice unless in the right situation; i understand that. It is the ones that great me as soon as i start TGEA for the first time ever, the bugs that ANY QA pass should have noticed. (QA is quality assurance, in the case anyone did not know)
I might have higher expectations then GG believe they need to meet. But it is only because i have worked with $500,000 AAA engines and know what the rest of the industry considers reasonable.
But if GG needs more QA, i WILL work for free. Matt already have the NDA i signed about a year ago.
01/22/2009 (7:23 pm)
Well, i have review community posted bug fix going back to after TGE1.5 was released. Some seem to be in the code other not. Its quite hard to compare alot of 1.8 as much of it is not at all the same.But it is not the silent little sneaky bugs that persist who bug me(yet it will be these bugs who cripple a project for no immediately obvious reason). Some bug are unavoidable, hard to even find/notice unless in the right situation; i understand that. It is the ones that great me as soon as i start TGEA for the first time ever, the bugs that ANY QA pass should have noticed. (QA is quality assurance, in the case anyone did not know)
I might have higher expectations then GG believe they need to meet. But it is only because i have worked with $500,000 AAA engines and know what the rest of the industry considers reasonable.
But if GG needs more QA, i WILL work for free. Matt already have the NDA i signed about a year ago.
#5
If you see more bugs then post them.
01/22/2009 (8:39 pm)
@Caylo - If by "horrible mess"... you mean the 2 bugs you've posted over the last week... your entitled to your opinion.If you see more bugs then post them.
#6
01/22/2009 (9:19 pm)
Quote:If by "horrible mess"... you mean the 2 bugs you've posted over the last week...Well...one of those "bugs" -- if it's one of the ones that I paid attention to -- wasn't an actual bug but just a side affect of how the New Mission Template was created and saved, what one would call expected behavior.
#7
Inspector fields that no longer WORK at all, enter DATA or tick an on/off box and nothing happen- sometimes it dont even effect the mission file and i end up editing what i want with Torsion not at all an example of productivity.
-Mission Objects -Environment; Many of these dont work at all, some of them crash the exe. If this is a KNOWN issue why not save everyone some time and put it in a .txt file located someplace common?
General Hotkeys; Some work some of the time. Some dont work at all.
Like i say, spend some time actually USING the mission editor and its built in functions and you will find other problems also.
I should note some of the things i have found to be just fine; I love the new terrain system, im very excited about this. I find TGEA1.8 to light missions quite quickly, some were 5minuts long in TGE1.5, and over 2minuts in TGEA1.7.1 when TGEA1.8 calculate light in 90 sec, that is a great improvement! 1.8 load to main menu much faster then any other TGE version(my main menu is heavy with animated shapes, music and other FX). In 1.8 i can pan from a near empty view to a poly loaded view without the annoying 100MS to 200MS pause that TGE1.5 and even TGEA1.7.1 had. So you see, there are MANY things that TGEA1.8 have gotten RIGHT.
01/22/2009 (9:27 pm)
I had said, Quote:the mission editor is a horrible mess, i will expand on this:
Inspector fields that no longer WORK at all, enter DATA or tick an on/off box and nothing happen- sometimes it dont even effect the mission file and i end up editing what i want with Torsion not at all an example of productivity.
-Mission Objects -Environment; Many of these dont work at all, some of them crash the exe. If this is a KNOWN issue why not save everyone some time and put it in a .txt file located someplace common?
General Hotkeys; Some work some of the time. Some dont work at all.
Like i say, spend some time actually USING the mission editor and its built in functions and you will find other problems also.
I should note some of the things i have found to be just fine; I love the new terrain system, im very excited about this. I find TGEA1.8 to light missions quite quickly, some were 5minuts long in TGE1.5, and over 2minuts in TGEA1.7.1 when TGEA1.8 calculate light in 90 sec, that is a great improvement! 1.8 load to main menu much faster then any other TGE version(my main menu is heavy with animated shapes, music and other FX). In 1.8 i can pan from a near empty view to a poly loaded view without the annoying 100MS to 200MS pause that TGE1.5 and even TGEA1.7.1 had. So you see, there are MANY things that TGEA1.8 have gotten RIGHT.
#8
01/22/2009 (9:35 pm)
@Michael that is still a bug, you posted a 'work around' not a FIX. And I examined your .ter file it is NOT built in TGEA1.8 from a hightmap .png but imported as a already generated .ter file. The bug i was talking about in that case was importing hightmaps. Two different functions, see? (And if you dont call that buggy behavior; what do you call an overflowing toilet? Unexpected Bidet?)
#9
The terrain I posted was only in case anyone wanted a flat one for their New Mission Template -- it was just a "freebie" -- with the initial camera & heightmap position already correctly centered for the importation process, and I never presented it as anything other than that.
I have extensively used the Mission Editor and only noticed a few minor issues that in no way crippled it's usability. Some were easily fixed on my part and others have been reported before with fixes provided for most. Instead of vague references to this or that problem or a "sometimes" problem, why not detail for us reproducible steps that result in your problems? Do so and you will find that there are plenty of people willing to help you resolve them or at least point you in the right direction.
Surely you don't expect the QA and Support of a professional $500,000 engine that you've "worked with before" with a $300 product geared for Indies, students, and hobbyists do you? That's like demanding a refund because your new kit car doesn't handle like the Cadillac that you test drove once before.
Instead of arguing, criticizing, or playing games with semantics, I will wait to pass judgment on GarageGames' commitment and ongoing concern for TGEa once the "strong possibility of a TGEA 1.8.1 bug fix update" comes to pass... or doesn't.
01/22/2009 (11:00 pm)
Once the maps are recentered as i described in that thread then your "heightmap import is busted bug" would have been resolved. Again, that whole issue was an erroneous interpretation on your part of behavior based on how the original New Mission template was created and saved. Recenter + resave = no problems with off-center heightmaps. Learn to properly use the tools at hand before crying bug and demanding fixes. Call it a "work around" if you must, but there is really nothing there to be fixed once you understand what was causing that particular problem; thus, not a bug. The terrain I posted was only in case anyone wanted a flat one for their New Mission Template -- it was just a "freebie" -- with the initial camera & heightmap position already correctly centered for the importation process, and I never presented it as anything other than that.
I have extensively used the Mission Editor and only noticed a few minor issues that in no way crippled it's usability. Some were easily fixed on my part and others have been reported before with fixes provided for most. Instead of vague references to this or that problem or a "sometimes" problem, why not detail for us reproducible steps that result in your problems? Do so and you will find that there are plenty of people willing to help you resolve them or at least point you in the right direction.
Surely you don't expect the QA and Support of a professional $500,000 engine that you've "worked with before" with a $300 product geared for Indies, students, and hobbyists do you? That's like demanding a refund because your new kit car doesn't handle like the Cadillac that you test drove once before.
Instead of arguing, criticizing, or playing games with semantics, I will wait to pass judgment on GarageGames' commitment and ongoing concern for TGEa once the "strong possibility of a TGEA 1.8.1 bug fix update" comes to pass... or doesn't.
#10
I have posted what my problems are, mentioned the bugs im having, and even let everyone know how they also can experience the same bugs.
Im not arguing, i AM being critical; but just you wait until you have product you expect people to pay money for and see if your customers are critical or not over your QA. Im basing my expectations for TGEA1.8 on PAST experiences with other versions of Torque, not any other tech I have access to. I DO expect the same QA from anyone who is aiming for professional quality.
And im done explaining myself on this subject, but totally open to more discussion about the original topic of this post, what is all about being sure GarageGames knows about the problems, and asking for a timeframe that can be expected for resolution. See how simple that actually is? I dont know why reporting bugs and requesting feedback continuously seems to be a battle, never happens on any other forums, or the people i work with.
01/22/2009 (11:45 pm)
Michael, none of the past TGE import terrain like that, no other engine i have ever used have that "function". I cant even see that behavior as being desirable. Thank you for your heartfelt feelings on the matter.I have posted what my problems are, mentioned the bugs im having, and even let everyone know how they also can experience the same bugs.
Im not arguing, i AM being critical; but just you wait until you have product you expect people to pay money for and see if your customers are critical or not over your QA. Im basing my expectations for TGEA1.8 on PAST experiences with other versions of Torque, not any other tech I have access to. I DO expect the same QA from anyone who is aiming for professional quality.
And im done explaining myself on this subject, but totally open to more discussion about the original topic of this post, what is all about being sure GarageGames knows about the problems, and asking for a timeframe that can be expected for resolution. See how simple that actually is? I dont know why reporting bugs and requesting feedback continuously seems to be a battle, never happens on any other forums, or the people i work with.
Associate Tom Spilman
Sickhead Games
Matt and Brett have both mentioned the strong possibility of a TGEA 1.8.1 bug fix update around the time of Torque 3D release.
Any improvement you make to TGEA outside of lighting, terrain, and the editors will probably also apply to Torque 3D if we didn't fix it first.
So time spent with TGEA 1.8 is not a wasted effort.