TGEA 1.7 dif vs. dts, shadows and foliage questions
by Frank Geppert · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 04/08/2008 (2:35 am) · 30 replies
Dear friends,
I am testing the demo of TGEA 1.7 and I am impressed. I would like to get a license soon. But before I would like to ask some questions, if you don't mind:
1a) DIF vs. DTS (collision and shadows)
Since I read there is poly-collision for dts now I believe I could make outdoor structures like huts, towers, walls and similar with DTS models now. Is that right? Or do you recommend still to use DIF for faster collision detection, better static shadows or somehting else?
1b) DIF vs. DTS (scene management)
If I create an indoor level is it possible to use DTS for that or do you still recommend to use DIF for static shadows and scene management with zones / portals?
2) shadows / lights
The forge demo does not show much shadows except on the character. So is it possible to see the same static shadows from Constructor in a level with normal-maps applied?
Is there any plan to use dynamic shadows on level geometry in the future or do you recommend to go with static shadows for a while now?
3) foliage replicator
If I create forests, bushes, gras with lots of replicators is this possible or do you suggest to use it rarely? Is LOD and culling possible in the replicator zones?
Thanks in advance. I am looking forward to communicate with you.
Regards,
Frank
I am testing the demo of TGEA 1.7 and I am impressed. I would like to get a license soon. But before I would like to ask some questions, if you don't mind:
1a) DIF vs. DTS (collision and shadows)
Since I read there is poly-collision for dts now I believe I could make outdoor structures like huts, towers, walls and similar with DTS models now. Is that right? Or do you recommend still to use DIF for faster collision detection, better static shadows or somehting else?
1b) DIF vs. DTS (scene management)
If I create an indoor level is it possible to use DTS for that or do you still recommend to use DIF for static shadows and scene management with zones / portals?
2) shadows / lights
The forge demo does not show much shadows except on the character. So is it possible to see the same static shadows from Constructor in a level with normal-maps applied?
Is there any plan to use dynamic shadows on level geometry in the future or do you recommend to go with static shadows for a while now?
3) foliage replicator
If I create forests, bushes, gras with lots of replicators is this possible or do you suggest to use it rarely? Is LOD and culling possible in the replicator zones?
Thanks in advance. I am looking forward to communicate with you.
Regards,
Frank
About the author
#2
Interesting questions. I would also like to read a answer from GG.
TGEA 1.7.x sounds very interesting but the answers of the above questions are essential.
Greetings
Thomas Bang
Germany
04/10/2008 (4:09 am)
HiInteresting questions. I would also like to read a answer from GG.
TGEA 1.7.x sounds very interesting but the answers of the above questions are essential.
Greetings
Thomas Bang
Germany
#3
1a. I think the main reason they want you to use DIFs is for speed, I think it is easier on the engine in terms of computing time because of the BSP nature of the DIFs makes it easier to compute shadows, etc. I am planning to use DTS objects for both character's, trees, and buildings. I recently had a discussion with some of the other TGEA owners, and they say the engine can handle a polycount of 37200 tris on a modern gaming rig.
1b. I think if you are going to make an indoor scene it is better to use DIFs, but it is possible with DTS, just going to be more CPU/GPU cycles spent.
2. I don't know about Constructor and normal maps, but I am making DTS buildings with Normal maps and the shadows work fine on those. My plan is to have an Oblivion-esque situation, where when you are walking around the buildings are all DTS, but when you open a door to go inside, you switch to a DIF environment for indoor stuff.
3. Once again I don't have much experience with replicators, but from what I have seen others do, it is possible to have rather large amounts of foliage, grass, etc. with occlusion on and not have much a frame rate hit.
04/10/2008 (6:24 am)
I can try and answer a few of them...but I may be wrong...as this is only from my own experience.1a. I think the main reason they want you to use DIFs is for speed, I think it is easier on the engine in terms of computing time because of the BSP nature of the DIFs makes it easier to compute shadows, etc. I am planning to use DTS objects for both character's, trees, and buildings. I recently had a discussion with some of the other TGEA owners, and they say the engine can handle a polycount of 37200 tris on a modern gaming rig.
1b. I think if you are going to make an indoor scene it is better to use DIFs, but it is possible with DTS, just going to be more CPU/GPU cycles spent.
2. I don't know about Constructor and normal maps, but I am making DTS buildings with Normal maps and the shadows work fine on those. My plan is to have an Oblivion-esque situation, where when you are walking around the buildings are all DTS, but when you open a door to go inside, you switch to a DIF environment for indoor stuff.
3. Once again I don't have much experience with replicators, but from what I have seen others do, it is possible to have rather large amounts of foliage, grass, etc. with occlusion on and not have much a frame rate hit.
#4
I am wondering though how you create shadows for your DTS buildings (plus shaders) if you don't make them static meshes in a Constructor scene. I am really interested to check that out.
I did not find a shadow flag in the editor. So there must be some material definition that I missed so far.
Regards,
Frank
04/10/2008 (7:54 am)
Thank you Gerard, this is very interesting.I am wondering though how you create shadows for your DTS buildings (plus shaders) if you don't make them static meshes in a Constructor scene. I am really interested to check that out.
I did not find a shadow flag in the editor. So there must be some material definition that I missed so far.
Regards,
Frank
#5
I'm making some DTS-environments as well...but I don't think they're ready to be lightmapped as for now - just cast baked shadows into the terrain/DIF's...hence you (at least I think) will have to bake 'selfshadows' into the textures. I'm not a *.hlsl programmer/shader wiz...so I can't say if this is doable with shaders...probably.
04/10/2008 (8:21 am)
I agree - interesting questions.I'm making some DTS-environments as well...but I don't think they're ready to be lightmapped as for now - just cast baked shadows into the terrain/DIF's...hence you (at least I think) will have to bake 'selfshadows' into the textures. I'm not a *.hlsl programmer/shader wiz...so I can't say if this is doable with shaders...probably.
#6
1a: I would still recomend dif as dts shadows aren't as good.
1c: same answer
2: I can't anser this
3: It's doable just like it is in tge.
I have a game world that uses a dts as a hut (inside and outside). It also uses the foliage replicator. Everything works fine.
04/10/2008 (2:33 pm)
This is from my experience with tgea 1.7.01a: I would still recomend dif as dts shadows aren't as good.
1c: same answer
2: I can't anser this
3: It's doable just like it is in tge.
I have a game world that uses a dts as a hut (inside and outside). It also uses the foliage replicator. Everything works fine.
#7
I am also no shader programmer. But I know from experience that an engine could theoretically support shadowmaps and normal-mapping at the same time via a second uv-set and a blending mode.
There are even some more advanced techniques like "directional lightmapping" that allow something like that:
stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e9907459/directionalLightmaps.pdf
Regards,
Frank
04/11/2008 (12:28 am)
Thanks Mike and Tobias.I am also no shader programmer. But I know from experience that an engine could theoretically support shadowmaps and normal-mapping at the same time via a second uv-set and a blending mode.
There are even some more advanced techniques like "directional lightmapping" that allow something like that:
stud3.tuwien.ac.at/~e9907459/directionalLightmaps.pdf
Regards,
Frank
#8
04/12/2008 (4:03 pm)
Do you have constructor, that will make dif out of dts.. Dif's shadows are better
#9
But I have problems to use the resulting DIFs in the engine. In TGE they get no or wrong lighting and the map2dif plus tse compiler just crashes.
This could become a real show stopper. But I am sure there are solutions to that. But I don't know where to start to find them.
04/13/2008 (1:19 am)
Thank you Noah Gomes. Yes, I have Constructor and I love it. It feels good, works efficiently and is easy to use.But I have problems to use the resulting DIFs in the engine. In TGE they get no or wrong lighting and the map2dif plus tse compiler just crashes.
This could become a real show stopper. But I am sure there are solutions to that. But I don't know where to start to find them.
#10
04/13/2008 (2:19 pm)
I haven't play with the lighting in constructor, but they in tgea has a good lighting.. I just started redoing my land in 1.7
#11
But I still have problems with them in TGEA. They look great after import. But if I re-light the scene then it mixes colors randomly and some brushes become look-through. If I use the export tgea dif option in Constructor then it becomes even worse.
Is there any trick I did not find in the manual?
04/13/2008 (2:36 pm)
I played around with it at weekend and I found out that re-installing Constructor solved some issues. Now the DIF files work great in TGE.But I still have problems with them in TGEA. They look great after import. But if I re-light the scene then it mixes colors randomly and some brushes become look-through. If I use the export tgea dif option in Constructor then it becomes even worse.
Is there any trick I did not find in the manual?
#12
04/17/2008 (9:33 am)
Are you using the 1.4 version of C'tor? Jaimi has fixed a number of issues with missing faces and collision.
#13
04/17/2008 (12:35 pm)
Yes. I checked the download version (1.0.3) and the update (1.0.4). Though I heard there are several 1.0.4 editions. This is a bit confusing to me
#14
One thing I've noticed though - when a DTS is embedded in Constructor and then exported as a DIF, the object don't recieve dynamic lighting anymore (in contrast to *real* DIF's that can from both...).
04/22/2008 (6:04 pm)
I don't know if anyone is interested...but I've been playing around with making some DIF's out of imported Static shapes, and I really like the ability to make a DTS able to receive shadows from other objects (even though they are not always as accurate).One thing I've noticed though - when a DTS is embedded in Constructor and then exported as a DIF, the object don't recieve dynamic lighting anymore (in contrast to *real* DIF's that can from both...).
#15
Did some different objects to test what they're *capable* of...and noted some stuff worth mentioning I think;
...and the test:
From left>right;
TSStatic
Pro's - Recives dynamic light, good performance...I guess.
Con' s - No shadows ON object itself, poor shadows cast with more complicated objects since they're cast from the col-meshes (not a great example with this one....but you'll understand)
DIF
Pro's - Good shadows cast/recieved - both onto others/terrain and it self, dynamic shadows recieved, lit by dynamic light, good performance (able to zone/cull)
Con' s - Hard to model more complicated geometry due to BSP-limitations
Static Shape
Pro's - Sharp shadows onto others, able to selfshadow (not seen here though), dynamic lighting
Con' s - Performance hungry, hard to tweak and get good selfshadowing
Static Shape imported to Constructor and exported as DIF
Pro's - Shadows onto others (bad shadow at terrain though), selfshadow, ability to model in your 3D-app of choice, dynamic shadows
Con' s - HUGE con is the lack of dynamic lightning, bad shadows onto terrain (probably caused by shadows - in contrary to shadows onto DIF's - are generated from col-meshes
Polysoup
Pro's - Dynamic lighting/shadows, good shadows baked onto others - including terrain, ability to model in 3D-app of choice
Con' s - No recieved static/baked shadows, no selfshadow
04/23/2008 (7:06 am)
@Frank: Just thought you might be curious of further test...Did some different objects to test what they're *capable* of...and noted some stuff worth mentioning I think;
...and the test:
From left>right;
TSStatic
Pro's - Recives dynamic light, good performance...I guess.
Con' s - No shadows ON object itself, poor shadows cast with more complicated objects since they're cast from the col-meshes (not a great example with this one....but you'll understand)
DIF
Pro's - Good shadows cast/recieved - both onto others/terrain and it self, dynamic shadows recieved, lit by dynamic light, good performance (able to zone/cull)
Con' s - Hard to model more complicated geometry due to BSP-limitations
Static Shape
Pro's - Sharp shadows onto others, able to selfshadow (not seen here though), dynamic lighting
Con' s - Performance hungry, hard to tweak and get good selfshadowing
Static Shape imported to Constructor and exported as DIF
Pro's - Shadows onto others (bad shadow at terrain though), selfshadow, ability to model in your 3D-app of choice, dynamic shadows
Con' s - HUGE con is the lack of dynamic lightning, bad shadows onto terrain (probably caused by shadows - in contrary to shadows onto DIF's - are generated from col-meshes
Polysoup
Pro's - Dynamic lighting/shadows, good shadows baked onto others - including terrain, ability to model in 3D-app of choice
Con' s - No recieved static/baked shadows, no selfshadow
#16
04/23/2008 (1:23 pm)
Baked dts don't really exist, think of them as 'ghost images'. I tore apart one of the StarWars games awhile back, and found they were using 'clip' brushes roughly shaped like the detailed objects, and then baking in dts-like models over them. The clip brushes (non rendering solid brushes) handled the collisions and shadows, while the overlaying model image handled the eye-candy.
#17
Thank you very much for this very interesting review of rendering and shading modes.
But it still does not solve my issues that I have with re-lighting a scene in TGEA. But maybe I have to start with a new scene or just look for some problems in my DIF structure. I will try to create some new structures and check that out.
04/24/2008 (10:46 am)
Tobias Niva:Thank you very much for this very interesting review of rendering and shading modes.
But it still does not solve my issues that I have with re-lighting a scene in TGEA. But maybe I have to start with a new scene or just look for some problems in my DIF structure. I will try to create some new structures and check that out.
#18
That is with you permission of course.
04/28/2008 (12:40 pm)
@Tobias, don't know if you have access to TDN (Torque Developer Network, it is like Wikipedia for Torque) but if you don't I think it would be useful to go ahead and put some of your pics up there, along with the pros and cons of the different mesh options, just to provide a way for people to see what the differences are.That is with you permission of course.
#19
Yes, I have 'some' permission to TDN...but I've never tried to put an article up there.
So...if you think it's useful - you definitely have permission to use pictures and text from this post!
On the other hand...as Erik Madison mention 'baked' DTS's do not really exist...and there's probably some more things I don't really understand about the more technical issues with how different objects/settings render in the engine (the dynamic lighting on some objects can most likely be achieved with some shader hacking and so forth).
But once again - if you think this could be appriciated up at TDN, you have full permission. Anyway I assume one can change/add things to the article in the future - if someone will come up with additional info or more tests...
Cheers.
04/28/2008 (1:28 pm)
@Gerard:Yes, I have 'some' permission to TDN...but I've never tried to put an article up there.
So...if you think it's useful - you definitely have permission to use pictures and text from this post!
On the other hand...as Erik Madison mention 'baked' DTS's do not really exist...and there's probably some more things I don't really understand about the more technical issues with how different objects/settings render in the engine (the dynamic lighting on some objects can most likely be achieved with some shader hacking and so forth).
But once again - if you think this could be appriciated up at TDN, you have full permission. Anyway I assume one can change/add things to the article in the future - if someone will come up with additional info or more tests...
Cheers.
#20
According to the test above, Polysoups should be able to receive dynamic lighting and shadows as well as cast them, right?
Can anybody shine some light on that?
05/20/2008 (9:27 am)
How do I get Polysoup models to cast shadows on Terrain and/or onto other objects?According to the test above, Polysoups should be able to receive dynamic lighting and shadows as well as cast them, right?
Can anybody shine some light on that?
Torque 3D Owner Frank Geppert
Maybe I did not explain good enough because English is not my mother language. But I really would like to know what you recommend for the perfect workflow.
Thanks