Nice Product
by Scott Johnson · in Torsion · 10/08/2007 (4:01 pm) · 33 replies
Up until now I'd been using Textpad with a TS syntax file to do my editing/debugging...
I can tell you that I'll never go back!!
This is a really solid product, and makes TS Editing life sooo much easier..
Thank you!
Scott
I can tell you that I'll never go back!!
This is a really solid product, and makes TS Editing life sooo much easier..
Thank you!
Scott
About the author
#2
Can configure it for debugging? Im almost happy with Codeweaver/TorqueDev for now, but never discard new options...
Edit: Wow, I comment here after seeing this thread on the "lastest threads" of "Whats new", but I dont think its very polite to comment and recommend other IDEs on the Torsion forums...
10/08/2007 (4:41 pm)
Thats it. I think we reach the 5 million options to work with TorqueScript.Can configure it for debugging? Im almost happy with Codeweaver/TorqueDev for now, but never discard new options...
Edit: Wow, I comment here after seeing this thread on the "lastest threads" of "Whats new", but I dont think its very polite to comment and recommend other IDEs on the Torsion forums...
#3
10/08/2007 (6:36 pm)
@Novack - No harm done... really we're not that sensitive. I fully welcome comparisons and criticism of Torsion.
#4
10/08/2007 (7:01 pm)
Thanks Tom, I know you are not that sensitive :) but beeing polite still cost nothing... Although you are right, good comparisons never hurt. :)
#5
I've always been an advocate of using the best tool for the job, regardless of where it comes from.
I've been puttering around here (GG forums) for just over 6 years now... Nothing to show product/project wise for it, but then again this is much more a hobby / compulsion / therapy than anything else ;)
Of course I was editing TS in Tribes 2, and building levels for said game in worldcraft before GG actually existed as a company.. :D For me it's about being able to build stuff, and see it "in engine" and make quick changes and see instant results.
However things are now really starting to shape up for having an actual production quality art/dev pipeline, after just having purchased the Constructor, and the TGE 1.5.2 engine...
With Torsion, the ability to set breakpoints, view the run time variables, call stack, and actually debug script really fills the development gap considerably. I can't tell you how much time I've wasted using echo() based debugging, that's probably what I will NOT miss the most.
@Tom
Just wanted to pass on my respect for your attitude towards the community, you've been a great asset on these forums to a lot of folks, keep up the good work! Looking foward to more software from Sickhead!! :D
10/08/2007 (10:44 pm)
Glad to see some folks are actually trolling the forums still... I've always been an advocate of using the best tool for the job, regardless of where it comes from.
I've been puttering around here (GG forums) for just over 6 years now... Nothing to show product/project wise for it, but then again this is much more a hobby / compulsion / therapy than anything else ;)
Of course I was editing TS in Tribes 2, and building levels for said game in worldcraft before GG actually existed as a company.. :D For me it's about being able to build stuff, and see it "in engine" and make quick changes and see instant results.
However things are now really starting to shape up for having an actual production quality art/dev pipeline, after just having purchased the Constructor, and the TGE 1.5.2 engine...
With Torsion, the ability to set breakpoints, view the run time variables, call stack, and actually debug script really fills the development gap considerably. I can't tell you how much time I've wasted using echo() based debugging, that's probably what I will NOT miss the most.
@Tom
Just wanted to pass on my respect for your attitude towards the community, you've been a great asset on these forums to a lot of folks, keep up the good work! Looking foward to more software from Sickhead!! :D
#6
Today, -although I see Torsion with a brillant future- I can say I like more Codeweaver, but I know the credit for the debugging workflow is thanks to Tom.
Speaking of truth, I miss a lot some characteristics of Torsion (to the point of some times use both IDEs), but there are some of Codeweaver features that are like the air for me.
10/09/2007 (6:08 am)
Well in fact, is not only that, but he also make his improvements to the TelnetDebugger available to the community. In the end, as good as Torsion be, that was the real deep good: to allow others to buid on top of his own work.Today, -although I see Torsion with a brillant future- I can say I like more Codeweaver, but I know the credit for the debugging workflow is thanks to Tom.
Speaking of truth, I miss a lot some characteristics of Torsion (to the point of some times use both IDEs), but there are some of Codeweaver features that are like the air for me.
#7
On a side note, glad to see Tom is back, can't wait for the next release
10/09/2007 (7:02 am)
Codeweaver definitely looks fancy, but it not being maintained (and my inability to get debugging up and running quickly) was a big stopping point for me, and the Torsion Alpha worked (almost) flawlessly.On a side note, glad to see Tom is back, can't wait for the next release
#8
Anyway the time for difficult setup for debugging is behind, both IDEs have wizards for those who cannot make it work. But that its true, Torsion was ever more easy to setup for debug.
10/09/2007 (7:13 am)
Mantained or not, CW has some useful features that Torsion dont.Anyway the time for difficult setup for debugging is behind, both IDEs have wizards for those who cannot make it work. But that its true, Torsion was ever more easy to setup for debug.
#9
I keep hearing that, but no one ever really seems to say what--if Tom doesn't mind, I'd love to hear what features are "missing" from Torsion :)
10/09/2007 (7:57 am)
Quote:
Mantained or not, CW has some useful features that Torsion dont.
I keep hearing that, but no one ever really seems to say what--if Tom doesn't mind, I'd love to hear what features are "missing" from Torsion :)
#10
(Please forgive me if these already exist, I haven't exhaustively used the editor yet!)
1) Refactor Code (Rename): The ability to easily change the name of a function/variable/datablock etc... and have that change automatically made throughout the project.
2) Refactor Code (promote/remove) Parameter: The ability to promote a locally scoped variable into the parameter list of a function, and remove a parameter to make it a locally scoped variable.
3) Find All References: Finds all occurances of variable/function etc.. and displays the file and line number in a search list. Where you could click on a line and it takes you to that source location...
4) Insert/Surround with snippit: For easily wrapping code with if/for/do structures, just another productivity convienience.
Within VS, I use these functions a lot, I like them because it streamlines the actual coding time. It also keeps me more focused on the code/requirements/intent, rather than mundane editing tasks (ala search/replace).
Anyhow, these are really only suggestions to add to the feature list down the road... :D
10/09/2007 (8:44 am)
Although I've never used CW, I did find a few features that would be *nice* to have compared to VS2005...(Please forgive me if these already exist, I haven't exhaustively used the editor yet!)
1) Refactor Code (Rename): The ability to easily change the name of a function/variable/datablock etc... and have that change automatically made throughout the project.
2) Refactor Code (promote/remove) Parameter: The ability to promote a locally scoped variable into the parameter list of a function, and remove a parameter to make it a locally scoped variable.
3) Find All References: Finds all occurances of variable/function etc.. and displays the file and line number in a search list. Where you could click on a line and it takes you to that source location...
4) Insert/Surround with snippit: For easily wrapping code with if/for/do structures, just another productivity convienience.
Within VS, I use these functions a lot, I like them because it streamlines the actual coding time. It also keeps me more focused on the code/requirements/intent, rather than mundane editing tasks (ala search/replace).
Anyhow, these are really only suggestions to add to the feature list down the road... :D
#11
Sometimes I fear that you even heard what I think Stephen :)
But you really heard that? I feel like Im the last CW user...
Lets see...
One feature I love are the Code Snippets (and the posibility to make new ones, in an standard format).
Then there is the preferences customizations (especially the keyboard shorcuts)
Checking syntax on the fly
file templates
Output-Report as new Tab
code regions (although I dont remeber if Torsion finally got this)
A little better intellisense
Its free...!
And of course the UI itself, which I can arrange at whim. I can post screenshots if you want, but the posibility to drag any window (including editor tabs) and dock it where and how I want is very useful.
And! I forgot plugins capacity
Nevertheless, I could enumerate in the same way features I love from Torsion, that CW dont have. Without doing much memory:
Inside Explorer Menu
Copy-able Output (Jesus! I dont know what Sam was thinking by no-allowing to select-copy on the output)
Low memory demands
More stable
Useful context menus on editor tabs
Output clickable on errors (!)
So both are useful, but in the day-to-day work I feel like CW is more handy.
@Scott I dont think this is the proper thread to make features request...
Edit: typo... and "plugins" item on CW list
10/09/2007 (9:24 am)
Wow! you are everywhere :DSometimes I fear that you even heard what I think Stephen :)
But you really heard that? I feel like Im the last CW user...
Lets see...
One feature I love are the Code Snippets (and the posibility to make new ones, in an standard format).
Then there is the preferences customizations (especially the keyboard shorcuts)
Checking syntax on the fly
file templates
Output-Report as new Tab
code regions (although I dont remeber if Torsion finally got this)
A little better intellisense
Its free...!
And of course the UI itself, which I can arrange at whim. I can post screenshots if you want, but the posibility to drag any window (including editor tabs) and dock it where and how I want is very useful.
And! I forgot plugins capacity
Nevertheless, I could enumerate in the same way features I love from Torsion, that CW dont have. Without doing much memory:
Inside Explorer Menu
Copy-able Output (Jesus! I dont know what Sam was thinking by no-allowing to select-copy on the output)
Low memory demands
More stable
Useful context menus on editor tabs
Output clickable on errors (!)
So both are useful, but in the day-to-day work I feel like CW is more handy.
@Scott I dont think this is the proper thread to make features request...
Edit: typo... and "plugins" item on CW list
#12
Customizable keyboard shortcuts would be nice, there have been a few times where an introduced shortcut was actually a standard windows shortcut (like the whole Ctrl-Delete thing, which is still broken) Ctrl-clicking on a selection still doesn't behave live Visual Studio.
Intellisense in Torque is touchy because of its open nature, but CodeWeaver does have a very elegant way of setting up common intellisense actions through that // #DECLARE system.
Snippits and templates would be nice to have, as would plugins, Torsion has Tools, but I haven't seen any examples of them or any inkling of how to use them
Things I'd really like to have are:
// TODO: or something recognition (or VS bookmarks) with a task list tab, give you a nice way to mark lines of code that you need to come back to.
Find in Find in Files (or Filter Find in Files) for finding things within a set that you have searched, as well as a Find in Project.
Find and Replace in files/selection
Find in files thread starving on single core machines
Ctrl-click/drag and Shift-delete working like they do in windows/VS/word/notepad2
@Scott - Where do you get these Visual Studio enhancements? So far as I know, refactoring and snippiting are part of Visual Assist X. Visual C++ only has find all references from your list
10/09/2007 (9:43 am)
I remember Tom saying Refactoring was on the list for Torsion 2, as were Regions.Customizable keyboard shortcuts would be nice, there have been a few times where an introduced shortcut was actually a standard windows shortcut (like the whole Ctrl-Delete thing, which is still broken) Ctrl-clicking on a selection still doesn't behave live Visual Studio.
Intellisense in Torque is touchy because of its open nature, but CodeWeaver does have a very elegant way of setting up common intellisense actions through that // #DECLARE system.
Snippits and templates would be nice to have, as would plugins, Torsion has Tools, but I haven't seen any examples of them or any inkling of how to use them
Things I'd really like to have are:
// TODO: or something recognition (or VS bookmarks) with a task list tab, give you a nice way to mark lines of code that you need to come back to.
Find in Find in Files (or Filter Find in Files) for finding things within a set that you have searched, as well as a Find in Project.
Find and Replace in files/selection
Find in files thread starving on single core machines
Ctrl-click/drag and Shift-delete working like they do in windows/VS/word/notepad2
@Scott - Where do you get these Visual Studio enhancements? So far as I know, refactoring and snippiting are part of Visual Assist X. Visual C++ only has find all references from your list
#13
VS 2005 Pro has them by default (at least I didn't do anything special to make it show up...).
@All
My apologies for hijacking my own "Kudos to Tom" thread for a feature comparison/request debate, although since this is the only Torsion Forum, I actually did think about creating a new thread, however I'm a lazy programmer, and folks were already reading this one.. :D
10/09/2007 (10:12 am)
@JamesVS 2005 Pro has them by default (at least I didn't do anything special to make it show up...).
@All
My apologies for hijacking my own "Kudos to Tom" thread for a feature comparison/request debate, although since this is the only Torsion Forum, I actually did think about creating a new thread, however I'm a lazy programmer, and folks were already reading this one.. :D
#14
I didnt related you with the original post, thats why the confusion.
Stephen are you still there? I wanna know your opinions now (your turn) :D
10/09/2007 (10:32 am)
Scott sorry, seeing that you in fact created this thread well... write what you want!I didnt related you with the original post, thats why the confusion.
Stephen are you still there? I wanna know your opinions now (your turn) :D
#15
A lot of what you said does make sense, and I can see the benefits of those I understand (not sure what exactly CW does with "code snippets" for example).
Personally, I'd like to see output filtering (during development, breakpoints are nice, but when you are working with 32 ms frequency on some callbacks, it's next to impossible to keep track of input derived states)--let me put in tags in my echo statements, and have Torsion only display the tags I have active in the output window.
Intellisense is a "so so" feature for me personally--most of the time, it gets in my way. Either I'm not coding to benefit from it, or I'd rather have a more active role in determining when it's offered as a type.
I also think a "locals" window very similar to what MS Studio has would be a huge benefit--most of my add watches are for arguments that are being provided to the specific method I'm debugging--and it's a pain to add/remove/build up dozens of arguments per call stack.
Other than that, I'm pretty happy :) I need to upgrade to latest beta (I tend to stay with "release" builds for everything I do, to keep in touch with what the end user is working with regarding products when I teach), since the one I have has a couple of performance issues (1.0.852 Final), but just need to get around to doing that.
10/09/2007 (11:07 am)
I'm here, but we have IGC prep going on--so pretty hectic! Board interaction is going to be late night/early morning only the next several days for me at least.A lot of what you said does make sense, and I can see the benefits of those I understand (not sure what exactly CW does with "code snippets" for example).
Personally, I'd like to see output filtering (during development, breakpoints are nice, but when you are working with 32 ms frequency on some callbacks, it's next to impossible to keep track of input derived states)--let me put in tags in my echo statements, and have Torsion only display the tags I have active in the output window.
Intellisense is a "so so" feature for me personally--most of the time, it gets in my way. Either I'm not coding to benefit from it, or I'd rather have a more active role in determining when it's offered as a type.
I also think a "locals" window very similar to what MS Studio has would be a huge benefit--most of my add watches are for arguments that are being provided to the specific method I'm debugging--and it's a pain to add/remove/build up dozens of arguments per call stack.
Other than that, I'm pretty happy :) I need to upgrade to latest beta (I tend to stay with "release" builds for everything I do, to keep in touch with what the end user is working with regarding products when I teach), since the one I have has a couple of performance issues (1.0.852 Final), but just need to get around to doing that.
#16
but yeah @Stephen, setting a filter on the output window would be nice, only display lines containing a certain string, and you could set up that string with all your echo statements, so far as I know the output window only mirrors the console.log file. I wonder about having that many echo statements though, in my experience, a lot of echos will slow Torque down pretty quickly as it writes all the stuff to the console, though it might be my console buffer is too big.
A locals window would be amazing, I have plenty of times where I am watching function calls of a set of variables, and if any other breakpoint is hit out of context, I get a slew of console errors.
definitely try 1.1.130, it fixes the performance problems (but brings in some quirks with the new features that were added)
One last suggestion is the Check for Updates in Torsion, so far as I know it is non-functional, none of the betas are sent through it for updating (and I guess we haven't had another "release" build to try)
10/09/2007 (11:22 am)
@Scott - looks like Refactoring is really only done well in C#, not C++. Considering Visual Studio's C++ usually get handy features last, I missed it. I do remember code auto-completing in VB.NET which was really nice, make an If, it adds an End If.but yeah @Stephen, setting a filter on the output window would be nice, only display lines containing a certain string, and you could set up that string with all your echo statements, so far as I know the output window only mirrors the console.log file. I wonder about having that many echo statements though, in my experience, a lot of echos will slow Torque down pretty quickly as it writes all the stuff to the console, though it might be my console buffer is too big.
A locals window would be amazing, I have plenty of times where I am watching function calls of a set of variables, and if any other breakpoint is hit out of context, I get a slew of console errors.
definitely try 1.1.130, it fixes the performance problems (but brings in some quirks with the new features that were added)
One last suggestion is the Check for Updates in Torsion, so far as I know it is non-functional, none of the betas are sent through it for updating (and I guess we haven't had another "release" build to try)
#17
The code snippets: I used a lot that feature in Java/Eclipse environment, but I didnt know how to call them till I read that name from Sam, are those pre-made code schemes that you fill with your real values. A pic is better than a thousand words:
What Sam did on CW, is to support the standard MSVS snippet format to use and create snnipets. Can be used with ANY type of code block, btw.
About the filtered output, you (both Stephen and James) have a really good point/idea.
What you say about intellisense its true, but for me, it happens with Torquescript, cos in other environments, it results an awesome tool (intimate bonded with the code snippets).
And finally, about the "locals", you should try the "Variables" window of the CW, it has a very close functionality to what you mention.
Good luck with the IGC preps!
Edit: crap what was the img tag?
Ha! it was [image], instead of [img]
10/09/2007 (11:52 am)
Lol, I was just joking, no need to post now if you are in trouble ;)The code snippets: I used a lot that feature in Java/Eclipse environment, but I didnt know how to call them till I read that name from Sam, are those pre-made code schemes that you fill with your real values. A pic is better than a thousand words:
What Sam did on CW, is to support the standard MSVS snippet format to use and create snnipets. Can be used with ANY type of code block, btw.
About the filtered output, you (both Stephen and James) have a really good point/idea.
What you say about intellisense its true, but for me, it happens with Torquescript, cos in other environments, it results an awesome tool (intimate bonded with the code snippets).
And finally, about the "locals", you should try the "Variables" window of the CW, it has a very close functionality to what you mention.
Good luck with the IGC preps!
Edit: crap what was the img tag?
Ha! it was [image], instead of [img]
#18
The "day job" keeps me in the C# side of things... which is why the refactoring, auto complete etc are like second nature to me... :D I know that once we finally moved from the 6.0 Visual Studio (actually I changed jobs internally) to use the 2005, my coding productivity shot up considerably.. Since I mainly work on an existing code base, refactoring is the *only* way to hammer that stuff into shape.
BTW, I totally agree on MSVC++ always getting the nifty tools last, if ever...
I'll also put my vote in for a locals window.
I always liked Textpad's find in files feature, it opens the results up into a document window, and allows find within the document, as well as double click the line to take you to file position.
The ability to have options to restrict and filter the find in files would be great as well.
I also make use of the VS "Task List" for TODO: items mainly, but I don't use it as much as I should, this could be especially useful for code review type of tasks..
Bookmarks are something I use on rare occasion, however when I need to use them, they are a great time saver. (I think that having multiple documents open have somewhat mitigated the usefullness of bookmarks)
Another feature I use on occasion (also further mitigating bookmarks) is the ability to open another editor document in a side by side mode (ala new vertical split in VS) so I can easily compare two files side by side, or copy/paste code etc...
Once again, I'm just providing these as suggestions, I think the editor as it stands now is in really good shape, and will of course be my choice for quite some time, any improvements will just be gravy... :D
10/09/2007 (12:04 pm)
LOL...The "day job" keeps me in the C# side of things... which is why the refactoring, auto complete etc are like second nature to me... :D I know that once we finally moved from the 6.0 Visual Studio (actually I changed jobs internally) to use the 2005, my coding productivity shot up considerably.. Since I mainly work on an existing code base, refactoring is the *only* way to hammer that stuff into shape.
BTW, I totally agree on MSVC++ always getting the nifty tools last, if ever...
I'll also put my vote in for a locals window.
I always liked Textpad's find in files feature, it opens the results up into a document window, and allows find within the document, as well as double click the line to take you to file position.
The ability to have options to restrict and filter the find in files would be great as well.
I also make use of the VS "Task List" for TODO: items mainly, but I don't use it as much as I should, this could be especially useful for code review type of tasks..
Bookmarks are something I use on rare occasion, however when I need to use them, they are a great time saver. (I think that having multiple documents open have somewhat mitigated the usefullness of bookmarks)
Another feature I use on occasion (also further mitigating bookmarks) is the ability to open another editor document in a side by side mode (ala new vertical split in VS) so I can easily compare two files side by side, or copy/paste code etc...
Once again, I'm just providing these as suggestions, I think the editor as it stands now is in really good shape, and will of course be my choice for quite some time, any improvements will just be gravy... :D
#19
10/09/2007 (12:15 pm)
Novack what are you talking about who did what?
#20
Most suggestions, as Tom stated in other threads, will be put on the wishlist for Torsion 2.0. Last we heard from him on Torsion, 1.1 Final was being ironed out, and the Mac port was being worked on.
Torsion as it is is very good, couple of bugs here and there, but by far a good dev environment. I can't wait to see what Tom has in store for Torsion 2.0
10/09/2007 (12:16 pm)
Yeah, I missed vertical split, as well as horizontal split of the same fileMost suggestions, as Tom stated in other threads, will be put on the wishlist for Torsion 2.0. Last we heard from him on Torsion, 1.1 Final was being ironed out, and the Mac port was being worked on.
Torsion as it is is very good, couple of bugs here and there, but by far a good dev environment. I can't wait to see what Tom has in store for Torsion 2.0
Torque 3D Owner Neill Silva