ESD Again...
by Jerane Alleyne · in General Discussion · 08/19/2002 (8:08 am) · 16 replies
Well, I got a little time, so thought I'd talk about this. Hope others come in :)
I recently read an interview with Scott Miller over at ingaming.com, where he gives his opinion on the Garagegames model and on ESD, basically saying that ESD is a long ways off, and can't stand up next to commercial/retail products.
To a degree, I agree with this. ESD, at least in its curent state, is not really visible as a serious purchase platform. I would venture a guess that this might be because there is really no one with industry strength that has either been willing or able to promote ESD. Whether its because of fear that the profit turn around will be less, or they are unwilling to take it seriously, I don't know...but obviously, if ESD is to succeed, it must be treated correctly, and promoted properly. In many ways, it is ideal for distribution, especially for independent developers, but I think the other part of the job is getting them to realize what benefits there can be to it, and getting them to support it as a primary form of distribution.
Probably something that has to be done is assess where you can take ESD to get the most exposure. Although I'm a little loathed to admit it, RealArcade kind of had a good idea, with their game launcher and being able to purchase/download games through it. It gave you all the info in one setup, it was promoted pretty well (had a recent segment on them on CNN during E3), and if I'm not mistaken, is doing/has done pretty well. I know Realnetworks is a coporate whore (hmm, maybe corporate pimp is a better term...), and they are well known, but in order to expand, you do need muscle. Granted, the majority of their games are small, simple, or puzzle games, but I think that's relatively inconsequential.
I think that GG is in a good position to spearhead ESD for the more serious game developer. I know their not corporate whoes(or pimps), but are probably in a better position to direct the course of ESD, possibly seek alliances with other distribution forces (gamespot, amazon, gamebuyer?). Making it worth their while would have to come into play, but it might not be as bad as the normal retail route.
Other issues such as piracy, which I think Tim Gift was looking into protection/validation for GG games, so hope does remain for ESD in general on this front. Convincing gamers to accept this might be a step...hopefully not a big one tho. We download patches, demos, movies, and God knows what else. There are some demos that are bigger than some games, so it might just be getting them to see the quality. They might also be more open to get a game that they can play immediately, and is not as expensive (another issue..getting public to realize that cheaper price does not equal cheaper quality).
No doubt a lot of work has to be done to really make this work, on all sides. In some ways, its not unlike the rise of CDs over Vinyl, or DVDs over VHS. Nobody wanted to change, but they got rammed down out throat and other orifaces, and now they dominate (there is next to no Vinyl anymore; Blockbuster has phased out VHS rentals). They had so much force behind them that the public soon realized that they were beneficial products. These are different circles, but not so far off that they can't work for ESD. Anyway, just wanted to talk...so lonely over here :(
Appreciate your opinions :)
I recently read an interview with Scott Miller over at ingaming.com, where he gives his opinion on the Garagegames model and on ESD, basically saying that ESD is a long ways off, and can't stand up next to commercial/retail products.
To a degree, I agree with this. ESD, at least in its curent state, is not really visible as a serious purchase platform. I would venture a guess that this might be because there is really no one with industry strength that has either been willing or able to promote ESD. Whether its because of fear that the profit turn around will be less, or they are unwilling to take it seriously, I don't know...but obviously, if ESD is to succeed, it must be treated correctly, and promoted properly. In many ways, it is ideal for distribution, especially for independent developers, but I think the other part of the job is getting them to realize what benefits there can be to it, and getting them to support it as a primary form of distribution.
Probably something that has to be done is assess where you can take ESD to get the most exposure. Although I'm a little loathed to admit it, RealArcade kind of had a good idea, with their game launcher and being able to purchase/download games through it. It gave you all the info in one setup, it was promoted pretty well (had a recent segment on them on CNN during E3), and if I'm not mistaken, is doing/has done pretty well. I know Realnetworks is a coporate whore (hmm, maybe corporate pimp is a better term...), and they are well known, but in order to expand, you do need muscle. Granted, the majority of their games are small, simple, or puzzle games, but I think that's relatively inconsequential.
I think that GG is in a good position to spearhead ESD for the more serious game developer. I know their not corporate whoes(or pimps), but are probably in a better position to direct the course of ESD, possibly seek alliances with other distribution forces (gamespot, amazon, gamebuyer?). Making it worth their while would have to come into play, but it might not be as bad as the normal retail route.
Other issues such as piracy, which I think Tim Gift was looking into protection/validation for GG games, so hope does remain for ESD in general on this front. Convincing gamers to accept this might be a step...hopefully not a big one tho. We download patches, demos, movies, and God knows what else. There are some demos that are bigger than some games, so it might just be getting them to see the quality. They might also be more open to get a game that they can play immediately, and is not as expensive (another issue..getting public to realize that cheaper price does not equal cheaper quality).
No doubt a lot of work has to be done to really make this work, on all sides. In some ways, its not unlike the rise of CDs over Vinyl, or DVDs over VHS. Nobody wanted to change, but they got rammed down out throat and other orifaces, and now they dominate (there is next to no Vinyl anymore; Blockbuster has phased out VHS rentals). They had so much force behind them that the public soon realized that they were beneficial products. These are different circles, but not so far off that they can't work for ESD. Anyway, just wanted to talk...so lonely over here :(
Appreciate your opinions :)
#2
08/19/2002 (7:12 pm)
What is "ESD"?
#3
08/19/2002 (7:55 pm)
Electronic Software Distribution?
#4
You can also call it EDS, I believe, for "Electronic Distribution Service."
08/19/2002 (8:16 pm)
Yep.You can also call it EDS, I believe, for "Electronic Distribution Service."
#5
08/19/2002 (8:21 pm)
Ah ok, thanks.
#6
@Greg: its true that broadband still isn't the standard that it was supposed to be by this time. Frankly, I wouldn't expect something like Neverwinter Nights, like +1GB in size to be the optimum type of game for ESD. Alternatively, segmented downloads could be used for low bandwidth users, or maybe something close to the shareware system, with episodes, depending on the type of game.
I'm not sure on the specifics of Valve's Steam system, but that might be something to keep an eye on.
08/19/2002 (8:28 pm)
You are correct sir!@Greg: its true that broadband still isn't the standard that it was supposed to be by this time. Frankly, I wouldn't expect something like Neverwinter Nights, like +1GB in size to be the optimum type of game for ESD. Alternatively, segmented downloads could be used for low bandwidth users, or maybe something close to the shareware system, with episodes, depending on the type of game.
I'm not sure on the specifics of Valve's Steam system, but that might be something to keep an eye on.
#7
Scott would probably say something like: "People should use Quake 3 to make games" or "People should not worry about ESD and go retail in store". Scott, you're not dealing with people who have hundreds of thousands of dollars to invest into a project. Of course, you're working on Duke Nukem Forever.
I'm trying to be nice, but I don't think that the gaming industry as a whole even tries to understand what's going on here. GarageGames isn't banking on a Warcraft III. No one using the Torque Engine expects millions in sales, nor do they worry at night about their two-page ad in PC Gamer.
Too many apples to oranges comparisions.
Although, I can say that I'll be doing my part to prove him wrong. Failure? A failure is taking too long on a game that has been eternally hyped and not living up.
Success is measured on expectations.
What is expected of teams who don't have millions to spend, paid employees, or a marketing department?
08/20/2002 (2:00 am)
One thing I find humorous about the complaints regarding GarageGames are the fact that the person doesn't seem to realize the target audience for the engine. In Scott's case, I don't think it's ignorance.Scott would probably say something like: "People should use Quake 3 to make games" or "People should not worry about ESD and go retail in store". Scott, you're not dealing with people who have hundreds of thousands of dollars to invest into a project. Of course, you're working on Duke Nukem Forever.
I'm trying to be nice, but I don't think that the gaming industry as a whole even tries to understand what's going on here. GarageGames isn't banking on a Warcraft III. No one using the Torque Engine expects millions in sales, nor do they worry at night about their two-page ad in PC Gamer.
Too many apples to oranges comparisions.
Although, I can say that I'll be doing my part to prove him wrong. Failure? A failure is taking too long on a game that has been eternally hyped and not living up.
Success is measured on expectations.
What is expected of teams who don't have millions to spend, paid employees, or a marketing department?
#8
I don't think he's wrong.
08/20/2002 (8:36 am)
The 'point' I got out of it was that he believes that indy devs can't compete with the big boys with massive budgets. And that instead of trying to compete with them in the fps/rts/etc genre, indies are better off targetting niche markets.I don't think he's wrong.
#9
I just felt that his responses were more towards why large-budget projects wouldn't do well ESD than anything else... which of course, wasn't really the question. A lot of people (gamers and developers) tend to turn the conversation to large-budget games, and don't realize that GarageGames is focussing on a completely different market than the Quake 3 engine.
I mean, what's better? No sales, sales on your small website, or sales on a large portal site with the support of a company made up of industry veterans?
08/20/2002 (1:50 pm)
I got that point Jeremy, and I don't think anyone could disagree there.I just felt that his responses were more towards why large-budget projects wouldn't do well ESD than anything else... which of course, wasn't really the question. A lot of people (gamers and developers) tend to turn the conversation to large-budget games, and don't realize that GarageGames is focussing on a completely different market than the Quake 3 engine.
I mean, what's better? No sales, sales on your small website, or sales on a large portal site with the support of a company made up of industry veterans?
#10
Don't count out small games, either in terms of appeal or in terms of game play. Those who develop smaller games are serious game developers - have no doubts about that. Not every game needs to be Warcraft III, nor is every gamer really interested in terribly complex game play. And sometimes you just want to waste some time on break playing a mindless game like Bejewelled. ;)
08/20/2002 (2:57 pm)
I believe that it is possible to make a reasonable living as an indie making smaller games if you can reach a reasonably-sized audience (through Real or later GG or whoever). I also believe you need to have more than one of these games out there simultaneously to help that effort. In addition, the games should be timeless so that they are selling strong years from now, and these types of games make up the bulk of the games on the RealOne Arcade site. Don't count out small games, either in terms of appeal or in terms of game play. Those who develop smaller games are serious game developers - have no doubts about that. Not every game needs to be Warcraft III, nor is every gamer really interested in terribly complex game play. And sometimes you just want to waste some time on break playing a mindless game like Bejewelled. ;)
#11
I do agree that an ESD game doesn't have to be the next WC3 in terms of budget or complexity...but it doesn't mean it can't be seen in the same category, or not possess the same quality in gameplay.
I look at creators of mods like Firearms and Counterstrike, that in some ways, are in the same boat as indie developers: no budget, scattered team, limited resources, etc. yet these games were more like trendsetters at their time, with current games actually taking concepts from these models (I remember an old article in PC Gamer that mentioned this...mods/total conversions being better than the current games of the time).
Granted, these examples aren't terribly complex, but still exist on a level of competition with the big budget games in terms of quality (of course they tried to turn CS into a retail game and pretty much failed in that attempt, as with other mods..but that is REALLY an entirely different story, based pretty much on stupidity).
08/20/2002 (4:01 pm)
I must admit...the term 'niche market' makes me shiver. I do agree that an ESD game doesn't have to be the next WC3 in terms of budget or complexity...but it doesn't mean it can't be seen in the same category, or not possess the same quality in gameplay.
I look at creators of mods like Firearms and Counterstrike, that in some ways, are in the same boat as indie developers: no budget, scattered team, limited resources, etc. yet these games were more like trendsetters at their time, with current games actually taking concepts from these models (I remember an old article in PC Gamer that mentioned this...mods/total conversions being better than the current games of the time).
Granted, these examples aren't terribly complex, but still exist on a level of competition with the big budget games in terms of quality (of course they tried to turn CS into a retail game and pretty much failed in that attempt, as with other mods..but that is REALLY an entirely different story, based pretty much on stupidity).
#12
Jerane, the key difference is that these games are benefiting from the tremendous success of the games they're modded to. Half-Life, for instance, is such a huge success that it's relatively easy for a good H-L mod to get noticed, and the built-in gamer market is already there. With an original indie game, the market must be built from scratch.
>>> I must admit...the term 'niche market' makes me shiver.
When I use the term niche market, I mean any market that is not dominated by a retail publisher/developer already. Practically all the main genres are filled by strong retail publishers/developers.
I HIGHLY recommend people read the book Marketing Warfare, by Al Ries and Jack Trout. This book explains clearly that to enter a market you must not bother trying to take on established leaders, but instead find a new market, even if you have to invent your own new category. For example, Coke and Pepsi are the two clear and unbeatable cola leaders. it's pointless to take these two on in a cola war. But, if you invent a new soda, say 7-Up or Dr. Pepper, then you have a chance. You must zag where others zig, forge something new that can stand on its own.
Duke Nukem and Max Payne are both case studies of zagging to avoid the market leaders, DOOM and Tomb Raider respectively. You cannot be a leader following in another leader's footsteps, you must cut another path. Niche doesn't necessarily mean "small," it simply means under explored, or not overrun with competition. Niche markets can be made into their own major categories with the right game--inventing a new genre.
>>> Scott would probably say something like: "People should use Quake 3 to make games" or "People should not worry about ESD and go retail in store". <<<
Actually, no, Matt. For me, the engine being used is irrelevant, as long as it's up to the task.
As for ESD, I just think it's a long, long way--a decade or even much longer--from ever matching the revenues that can be generated at retail. Retail will be king for a long, long time, at least for the major genres. ESD will find a place with smaller games, and games that do not compete with the big boys. You won't find an Id or Epic or 3DR uses ESD as a primary revenue source ever, I predict. Valve is going to give it a shot with Steam, but I predict they, too, come to realize that retail generates far more revenues (and profits) for them. However, Steam might be a nice supplemental income for them, the same that shareware is still for 3DR, generating revenues about 20 times less than we make at retail, even though the profit margin is twice as high.
And don't get me wrong, I think GG is a great thing, and will result in a lot of new developers getting jobs, and hopefully the creation of a new team or two that's signed with a publisher.
08/20/2002 (6:58 pm)
>>> I look at creators of mods like Firearms and Counterstrike, that in some ways, are in the same boat as indie developers: no budget, scattered team, limited resources, etc. yet these games were more like trendsetters at their time. <<<Jerane, the key difference is that these games are benefiting from the tremendous success of the games they're modded to. Half-Life, for instance, is such a huge success that it's relatively easy for a good H-L mod to get noticed, and the built-in gamer market is already there. With an original indie game, the market must be built from scratch.
>>> I must admit...the term 'niche market' makes me shiver.
When I use the term niche market, I mean any market that is not dominated by a retail publisher/developer already. Practically all the main genres are filled by strong retail publishers/developers.
I HIGHLY recommend people read the book Marketing Warfare, by Al Ries and Jack Trout. This book explains clearly that to enter a market you must not bother trying to take on established leaders, but instead find a new market, even if you have to invent your own new category. For example, Coke and Pepsi are the two clear and unbeatable cola leaders. it's pointless to take these two on in a cola war. But, if you invent a new soda, say 7-Up or Dr. Pepper, then you have a chance. You must zag where others zig, forge something new that can stand on its own.
Duke Nukem and Max Payne are both case studies of zagging to avoid the market leaders, DOOM and Tomb Raider respectively. You cannot be a leader following in another leader's footsteps, you must cut another path. Niche doesn't necessarily mean "small," it simply means under explored, or not overrun with competition. Niche markets can be made into their own major categories with the right game--inventing a new genre.
>>> Scott would probably say something like: "People should use Quake 3 to make games" or "People should not worry about ESD and go retail in store". <<<
Actually, no, Matt. For me, the engine being used is irrelevant, as long as it's up to the task.
As for ESD, I just think it's a long, long way--a decade or even much longer--from ever matching the revenues that can be generated at retail. Retail will be king for a long, long time, at least for the major genres. ESD will find a place with smaller games, and games that do not compete with the big boys. You won't find an Id or Epic or 3DR uses ESD as a primary revenue source ever, I predict. Valve is going to give it a shot with Steam, but I predict they, too, come to realize that retail generates far more revenues (and profits) for them. However, Steam might be a nice supplemental income for them, the same that shareware is still for 3DR, generating revenues about 20 times less than we make at retail, even though the profit margin is twice as high.
And don't get me wrong, I think GG is a great thing, and will result in a lot of new developers getting jobs, and hopefully the creation of a new team or two that's signed with a publisher.
#13
You can always pick something apart if you apply rules to that aren't entirely relevent.
There is independent and hobby development, and then there's commercial game development like you're involved with. These are two similar, but very different groups. You seem to be thinking: "This won't compete with other commercial game developers" when you should be thinking: "This raises indie and hobby development to new heights".
Yes, we know 3D Realms won't be doing something similar. I'm looking around here, and I don't see any companies who have paid employees or fair amounts of funding. I might be wrong, but I thought "game development" extended beyond business.
Many independent and hobby developers don't have the resources to license or develop engines and organize a retail contract. Many don't even care about profits, but just want to create a game that people like and showcases their talents. Of course, if you try to label all game development as creating a profitable product then yes, I can understand your stance.
I see this as an improvement to an area that previously was out of bounds to people without large amounts of money. I see this as a place to give people a chance to make something that wouldn't appeal to a mainstream publisher, or just create something without much of a budget.
08/20/2002 (7:18 pm)
That comment quoted above wasn't saying that you're trying to sell a specific engine (or mocking Torque), but that you're thinking like this is a product being marketed to someone like yourself.You can always pick something apart if you apply rules to that aren't entirely relevent.
There is independent and hobby development, and then there's commercial game development like you're involved with. These are two similar, but very different groups. You seem to be thinking: "This won't compete with other commercial game developers" when you should be thinking: "This raises indie and hobby development to new heights".
Yes, we know 3D Realms won't be doing something similar. I'm looking around here, and I don't see any companies who have paid employees or fair amounts of funding. I might be wrong, but I thought "game development" extended beyond business.
Many independent and hobby developers don't have the resources to license or develop engines and organize a retail contract. Many don't even care about profits, but just want to create a game that people like and showcases their talents. Of course, if you try to label all game development as creating a profitable product then yes, I can understand your stance.
I see this as an improvement to an area that previously was out of bounds to people without large amounts of money. I see this as a place to give people a chance to make something that wouldn't appeal to a mainstream publisher, or just create something without much of a budget.
#14
08/20/2002 (7:52 pm)
Well said, Matt.
#15
08/20/2002 (9:32 pm)
EDS may not be ready for prime-time just yet, but it's highly concievable that a setup where a prospective buyer can spend a few dollars on a CD at the game store, then register online with a WON-like system that authenticates whenever there's a network connection would work. Rather like what iD pulled off with the old Quake CD (source code 111-1111) but with something resembling quality copy protection and registration. This way, the distribution network gets a little bit, the retailer gets a little bit, but the publisher maintains the majority of the income revenue. If someone worked up a system that was sufficiently idiotproof and painless it would work pretty well.
#16
For that reason the customer wouldn't be paying for the whole game so there'd be a smaller cost, and things like modules that are self contained (apart from the program that runs them) would be the idea distributed format.
Things like a series of level in a 3d action game would also be a good format to distribute via this in an "episodic" format like an Action TV show.
08/22/2002 (12:51 am)
I figure ESD or EDS (or whatever name they are going to use) will be useful for certain games, perhaps not to directly distribute things like Neverwinter Nights, but to distribute paid adventures that people have made for a game (the developers?), and say an adventure would constitute about 10-20 hours of solid gameplay. For that reason the customer wouldn't be paying for the whole game so there'd be a smaller cost, and things like modules that are self contained (apart from the program that runs them) would be the idea distributed format.
Things like a series of level in a 3d action game would also be a good format to distribute via this in an "episodic" format like an Action TV show.
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