Why are programmers so hard to find?

#1 I guess most good programmers feel they can go it alone. To lure a good programmer, you need to take away all the stuff that programmers wish they didn't have to do.

So,

1) get a great design spec, with the game all planned out, including how it should look, how it should play, etc.

2) make sure you have good graphics support - graphics are really important to how you feel about a game. It's easier to code into graphics.

3) if you are putting together a team, make sure you have good leadership and team coordination stuff in place

4) make sure the project is manageable. Why should I want to be a coder on this project? It's going to suck up a lot of my time... what does it offer that I can't get myself?

#2 I notice that while you made a project, you haven't posted any help wanted ads. If your trying to find programmers through this site, you should probably consider using that function.

#3 Sam Hinton pretty much nailed it :)

I see a lot of designers post projects with what they think are cool ideas and expect artists and programmers to flock to it. Ideas, though, are a dime a dozen, and it's not that easy to attract good programmers and artists. It helps to have an awesome original concept, but that's only one piece of it. I'm not sure what attracts a good artists, but I'll list three things that I consider pretty important:

1. Management. The project leaders would have to know (or have the appearance of knowing) what they are doing. It would have to be an organized group (or person) with clear objectives and preferably with some experience (though not necessarily in games production). The project leaders would have to have "vision" and be 100% dedicated to that project. Basically if they're not dedicated, and don't seem to know what they're doing, why should I waste my time? My advice to new project leaders: have clear goals and a clear plan to achieve them.

2. Artist. There would have to be good artists associated with the project. If I'm a good programmer, I'm going to want good artists to compliment my work :) I'd look for clear art direction. This would include concept art, preliminary shapes, mock-up screens, anything to get a idea of the visual direction of the project and the competency of the art direction. If your starting up a new project and currently don't have an artist, consider "contracting" one to put together some concept art. As for programmer art, I'd almost rather see no art than programmer art :) I'm not sure what it is, but when I see a project with lame art it's a big turnoff, even if the game concept sounds interesting.

3. Design. The project would have to have a solid game design. I'd look first for an interesting concept, but when I examine the project more closely, I would expect a thorough treatment of the game. This doesn't mean every little detail is spelled out, but all the major points should be covered. Think of it as a board game, without a clear set of rules, you wouldn't be able to play. I should be able to look at a design and get a feeling of how the game would play and how I might organize or code pieces of it. I'd mainly be looking to see if the designer knew what he was talking about. A warning for new designers: any good programmer or artist joining a project is going to want some influence over the design.

There are a number of things that might attract me to an existing project, but if these three aren't there, I'd probably pass.

#4 I have to agree with the original poster though, finding the right people (no mather what you need) really is very hard.

I posted a helpwanted ad for a programmer here a while back, and I haven't gotten a single reply.
I'd say we would comply with everything on that list; We're extremly dedicated, considering we're working fulltime (for free at the moment) with this.
We're serious, how couldn't we be? this is our future we're putting on the line here. If things doesn't turn out according to our plans WE would have wasted our time =).
We certainly have vison, and we're no "newbies", our last production was a fairly popular (free) singleplayer game using the half-life engine.

Our problem at the moment might be to communicate what we're doing to the outside world though, we simply don't want to say to much. But maybe we've been showing to little?

#5 I think you bring up a good point Magnus, how do you get noticed? Meeting all the criteria of a particular developer doesn't do you any good if they don't know about your project. Getting people together is one of the goals of GarageGames, and we're certainly open to suggestions. What could we do to help people and projects connect? Certainly listing the profiles, projects and ads is a good start, getting more developers visiting the site would help as well, but it feels like something is missing to me. Any thoughts?

#6 I wish I had any bright ideas, but getting more people to visit this site would probably be a good start.
I'll let you know if I come up with something, but don't hold your breath. I got alittle to many other things to think about at the moment =).

#7 The GarageGames Marketplace is like any network in that it's value increases as more people use it. It is going to take some time for this marketplace to heat up, but as we make our technology plans more clear, you will see traffic increase a hundred-fold.

The one thing that we have going for us here is that we are dedicated to making games. Interested developers don't have to wade through a bunch of non-interesting job offers in order to find game specific projects.

I prefer quality to quantity any day. So far, we have been working with a programmer, artist, and designer that we found through the GG marketplace. I couldn't be happier with the results.

Tim is right though. Even in the best of times, you will have a hard time connecting with a team that can bring a project to completion. Ideas are the easy part, so you need to sell your professionalism. Kenny, it is obvious that you are a beginner by the presentation of your profile. There is nothing there to sell a potential partner. You need to make your profile as professional as possible, create a web page explaining some of your game ideas, show an example of what your designs consist of, post intelligently on design forums, attend industry gatherings, and promote yourself.

Your career won't come to you. You have to swim out to meet it.

Jeff

#8 Everybody has said something true on this topic. I am the first to agree that good programmers, artist or whatever is very hard to find. Tim was right when he says his 3 points for a good project that he would be interrested to join. But here are some other points from where the problem should come from :

1- A non-funded project. Even if you want them to work for free "as for now" you always have to look for fundings... they have to know that at least someday theyll be rewarded for what they have done (nobody will do something for nothing...)

2- Project viability. Project viability is very important too ... you have a good idea, allright but is there a market for it? If not... forget it or maybe try to tweak it as it looks more commercial. You dont want to do free game all your life I think. And nobody will be willing to work on a project just for fun of making it... if nobody's plays it.

3- MANAGEMENT (idem as TIM)

Thats it.

I will give you my game example :

I am working on a commercial game since 1998. It is a RPG and Adventure game. We had almost everything in hands to success: contacts, team, very good attractive design, etc. but as a lack of management the team began to be smaller and smaller until nobody's left. I had to learn back all the management stuff I learned before, read books, participate in forums, read website, etc.
And new members was very hard to find! But I perseverate and now the team is almost full (we past from 20 members to 10). And I also discover that the answer was just in front of my face to solve my management problem : Smaller teams are better!

I hope I helped someone here. If not you can write me an email or a reply to my message and ask me question as you wish.

#9 You know, I've found it to be the opposite over here...I was able to get 4 programmers fairly quickly, but I only have one other artist (with another on the way however)! Its taken me much longer to find any artists. Being one myself, I was always one to figure artist to be a little easier to come by. When we're just starting out, getting recognition for our work and experience is an attractive option for artists. I never really thought that from programmers, at least not as much as artists....well, live and learn :)

#10 On the subject of getting more attention to the site. The announcement of the site to various game sites such as Dailyradar.com , Next-Generation, and to various magazines (PC Gamer) is what got me to come here. Maybe a few more tries at that could bring some new blood. Having many of the guys who worked on the best game ever (TRIBES) involved in garage games is sure to get some people excited.(promote that)Tribes has a rabid fallowing. I also agree that in time, the sites objectives will become more clear to people and they will jump on the bandwagon.

#11 My advice is to advertise this site at Universities and technical schools that are teaching 3D modeling and graphic art as part of thier computer science ciriculum. I believe that you would get quality responses to your project needs.

Just a thought.

btw: GarageGames is one of the first sites on the web that actually has purpose. Thanks guys !

#12 I'm a programmer. Catch me ! :-)

I really think that there are many programmers out there.
A big part of them has low experience and does only small utilities in Basic.
Then there are those, who has some experiences and make small games in Delphi (just like me)
And finally, there are a few good programmers, who make games in BIG companies, know a lot and are really hard to find.

#13 Alot of us are already too busy with other projects. So no matter how nice you make it look we still have other responsibilities. There are programmers out there that would be willing to help, you just gotta know how to entise them. One good way is to stroke their ego by approaching them rather than having them approach you ;)

#14 What an interesting post.

About 4 months ago, when GG was a little younger, I was on the lookout for an artist. Basically, I wanted to try and find a young, keen, able artist.

Maybe I didnt actually approach it correctly, but I had a couple of responses, but not that gem I was searching for. The thing that depressed me about this was that I was offering to pay the person.

Basically, finding the right people to work with, is one of the biggest problems Ive come across. It takes a LOT of searching to find people with enthusiasm, commitment, ability, and the right sort of attitude to work together.

Ive seen a lot of "internet" development teams, where basically they get a few people, add a load more, keep adding until the project falls apart. The biggest problem with "virtual" development is that its hard to keep people motivated, there are too many excuses that people can make when theyre not face to face.

So what does this mean?

Well, like Tim, I REALLY dislike using programmer graphics, Ive used them a lot of times waiting for artists to finish things up, and Tim's right, it just puts you off even though you KNOW its not final.

My only suggestion is that it seems to me that someone could actually make a living out of supplying graphics models at a low cost to people using the V12. If I were an aspiring artist, I would consider doing just that, making a "low cost model site" where you could buy specific models and shapes at a shareware ish price.

As for the guys trying to get teams together, the biggest attraction to me as a programmer, would be if the guy forming the team was a good competant lead artist. I wouldnt even necassarily care too much about the design being something I would like, as long as the guy was able, sensible, and had good idea's.

As far as I am concerned, as a professional programmer, I wouldnt want to commit to a project unless I could see it actually being completed. This means a fairly complete design, good art resource and a strong professional attitude all round.

Phil.

#15 I'd like to echo a couple of things Phil said. In the projects that I've worked on, or things I've thought up to work on, the biggest stopping point is always "We can do everything, just gotta find a modeler/animator to do the pretty stuff".

The better the programmer, the worse they draw. A person just doesn't have the time to develop both skills to a high level. Having a good artist on the team is just as important, to me, as having a clear cut design doc. If there's nothing to display, why write the code to display it?

A note on recruiting. Open "casting calls" always make me wary. All of the projects I've been involved with have started with and IRL meeting. Either someone I went to school with or a friend of a friend. Asking someone personally to join, or at least look at your project and see if they would want to work on it gives that person (or at least it does me) the idea that the leader/recruiter spends the time and cares who ends up on the team. This gives the impression that they are involved and possible know what they're getting into. I think GG is a good step in allowing this sort of activity to take place on the net, as you can search a directory of potential team members, and invite them to check out your design.

Being asked to join a team with a good artist and a strong design is a big step in snagging a strong programmer. I'm sure it's probably the same way to get a good artist.

Joel.

#16 I find that I tend to steer away from companies that repeatedly tell me I'll get money when the game gets published (if ever).

I know that most games I'll work on from here won't get much in the way of money, I don't need it repeatedly shoved in my face. To have continuous apologies tends to make me think the person doesn't think the project will finish.

A single apology that I won't be paid is acceptable, although it makes me feel uncomfortable (How do you reply graciously to "You won't be getting paid, sorry"?)

Other than that, it's as the others have said - Good art, and a game doc that I can read and understand the basics of the game. A leader with a sense of humour helps too, but not a complete joker (Unless they're reallly funny). Of course, projects like this can usually find someone with a better background than me ;)

#17 This is a great thread, recruiting is one of the most difficult tasks for any Game Development team. I think one important tool that hasn't been mentioned though is Networking.

I'm working in the Deus Ex modding community right now, and know almost every top coder in the community and most of the best artists, mappers, etc. That's because I go out and talk to them on Forums, using ICQ, and emailing them. Shmoozing doesn't hurt either, when an artist releases some great looking stuff, I send them a personal message congratulating them, same for coders, mappers, etc.

This puts me in a postion to know who to ask to do jobs when I need them. They don't always decide to join, and right now I need more people, but it makes a things a lot easier.

Another thing that I have done which is related, is sponser a Forum we call the Coders Corner (I am a Coder)to discuss coding issues. We are somewhat Draconian in our moderation, we don't allow recruiting from the Forum and only allow coding related questions, but we have ended up getting almost every top coder in the community asking and answering questions on the Forum.

Of course, I email/ICQ them and talk to them personally from time to time also. We become friends, then I have a good pool of people to draw from when I need help.

The Final thing I have done is to create some stuff for the general DX community and release it. This includes Mini-Mods and a Mod Loader for DX, as well as writing Tutorials. This means that people know who I am before I meet them. Basically, what I do is give them a resume in code and show that I am good enough to work with the best.

Our team is also expanding these ideas to Artists and Mappers so that we can build up those communities also.

We are about to post a website and actually announce the Mod, but we will do it with a ton of Design work already put into it, concept art, code written, screen shots, a solid team, and a name in the community.

I hope that helps, but networking isn't easy, it takes a bit of sales ability also.

#18 I actually did quite a bit of modding for different engines in the last few years, mainly for fun, but also because I like working with people who havent been put off the games industry :))

Its just refreshing to meet people who dont have huge ego's, and who love what they are doing.

I think its like anything though, as things become more popular, the "me too" brigade move in and the whole experience gets sour.

If you think about this rationally, V12 is just in its startup position, so the buzz should generally be quite good for now.

Once one or two projects get completed and (hopefully) become successful, then its going to be a big test. The trouble with any "engine" led development, is that people tend to think within the patterns that have been set before them. So if we make something great using the V12 engine, there are more than likely a thousand groups of people that will try and do the same.

I guess its going to start a thousand Tribes clone idea's going too :))

Speaking personally, I see this as an opportunity to try my own idea's out without spending years doing donkey work on tools. I prefer writing games to writing tools anyway :))

Its definitely a nice thing to be able to take someone else's engine thats COMPLETE and make something out of it (lets face it, almost every programmer has at some time written a 3D engine, I know I have :))

I think that as projects get completed, or even some way into starting, well, artists will come on board.

Phil.

#19 I won't deny that I'm no programmer, even if I am learning it when I can, but I know a ton of them who are working with DARKBasic at the time.

I'm trying to get a couple of them interested in GG and I hope you guys welcome them instead of thrashing about DB, which is actualy a decent learning tool.

Oh, and they could help you out with 3-D as well, DB is based on 3-D (if I only had a decent enough system to experience it!) and there are tons of sites where you can get models and textures. There's also a good Matrix tool there, ask anyone about it!

By the way, dedication is something we all MUST have... we're here aren't we?!

...And what a great community it is!

#20 In terms of doing more to promote the site and the projects advertised here, how about a "game/mod of the week/month/aeon"? You could radomly select (or choose manually) a game/mod and do a short feature on it. Just a thought.