Stick a fork in it?
by Jacobin · in RTS Starter Kit · 10/12/2006 (2:50 pm) · 14 replies
The fancy banner ad suggests, "Start making your RTS now!" Yeah, okay boss.
Have I paid money for a dead and orphaned product? This product isn't even selectable from the support pulldown menu! Will we eventually get an updated kit? The last one is a year old and even then it didn't work with directx.
-Jac
Have I paid money for a dead and orphaned product? This product isn't even selectable from the support pulldown menu! Will we eventually get an updated kit? The last one is a year old and even then it didn't work with directx.
-Jac
Thread is locked
#2
10/12/2006 (3:20 pm)
What do you feel is missing?
#3
Well having it work with the latest engines out of the box would be a start. For example, there's a post by Josh Williams stating they will be making the RTS kit work with TSE out of the box once it stabalized a bit. That was -two years- ago.
After that we can get to issues like...
-Not even a simple radius collision method.
-No pathfinding. My toons can walk up a cliff face!
-With the way RTSunit/RTSprojectile are implemented, it's somewhat hard to consider even a simplified THAC0 or similar system. Guess the archers/riflemen and such just have very good aim!
While the selection code and camera are nice, they certainly aren't worth half the price of torque. It's debatable whether they constitute a 'starter pack' by themselves. What's not debatable is that they aren't worth a damn given the fact they aren't being maintained.
-Jac
10/12/2006 (4:18 pm)
Quote:What do you feel is missing?
Well having it work with the latest engines out of the box would be a start. For example, there's a post by Josh Williams stating they will be making the RTS kit work with TSE out of the box once it stabalized a bit. That was -two years- ago.
After that we can get to issues like...
-Not even a simple radius collision method.
-No pathfinding. My toons can walk up a cliff face!
-With the way RTSunit/RTSprojectile are implemented, it's somewhat hard to consider even a simplified THAC0 or similar system. Guess the archers/riflemen and such just have very good aim!
While the selection code and camera are nice, they certainly aren't worth half the price of torque. It's debatable whether they constitute a 'starter pack' by themselves. What's not debatable is that they aren't worth a damn given the fact they aren't being maintained.
-Jac
#4
"//clever pathfinding code here!"
I mean come on. We've had to hack the modifier system to pieces to create a deep spell and skill casting system, not to mention the hideous amount of work to even do basic levelling architecture, and the godawful navigation code of units.
Overall the RTS engine, while worth the money, gives a far greater impression of completeness than it delivers. I mean, look how simple it is to keep the camera within the minimap, and that's not even included in the actual package.
It's pretty poor to be frank.
10/15/2006 (6:57 am)
Sign me up for the sentiment of Jacobin up there. Though the RTS pack has saved us a lot of coding and we've certainly got our money's worth, the amount of support is neglible, the framework is barely there and the code pretty horribly skeletal. "//clever pathfinding code here!"
I mean come on. We've had to hack the modifier system to pieces to create a deep spell and skill casting system, not to mention the hideous amount of work to even do basic levelling architecture, and the godawful navigation code of units.
Overall the RTS engine, while worth the money, gives a far greater impression of completeness than it delivers. I mean, look how simple it is to keep the camera within the minimap, and that's not even included in the actual package.
It's pretty poor to be frank.
#5
I was hoping that as TGE was upgraded the RTS kit would be too but no. I've had to do this myself and there's no offical word on what will happen once 1.5 comes out (correct me if I'm wrong).
I've seen a few posts of the nature "we'll be posting and update" or some such thing... 2 years ago (or what have you) and still nothing.
I do feel the RTS stuff is dead but then I'm feeling in a pretty depressed mood right now :)
10/15/2006 (8:31 am)
You can add me to the list but with the caveat that I'm really only interested in the art pipeline. I was hoping that as TGE was upgraded the RTS kit would be too but no. I've had to do this myself and there's no offical word on what will happen once 1.5 comes out (correct me if I'm wrong).
I've seen a few posts of the nature "we'll be posting and update" or some such thing... 2 years ago (or what have you) and still nothing.
I do feel the RTS stuff is dead but then I'm feeling in a pretty depressed mood right now :)
#6
Agreed. Both the FPS and Racing starter kits actually have meat on the bones. Other than the selection code there isn't much here for you to build upon. If they spent half the time they did on the fancy webpage putting in a few more pieces to the puzzle it wouldn't be such a joke.
That's my main beef. If you're going to continue to sell a product then you must maintain that product. They either need to bring the thing up to date, stop selling it or at the very least put a 'THIS IS AN ORPHANED PRODUCT' disclaimer on the website.
10/15/2006 (11:20 am)
Quote:Overall the RTS engine, while worth the money, gives a far greater impression of completeness than it delivers. I mean, look how simple it is to keep the camera within the minimap, and that's not even included in the actual package.
It's pretty poor to be frank.
Agreed. Both the FPS and Racing starter kits actually have meat on the bones. Other than the selection code there isn't much here for you to build upon. If they spent half the time they did on the fancy webpage putting in a few more pieces to the puzzle it wouldn't be such a joke.
Quote: I've seen a few posts of the nature "we'll be posting and update" or some such thing... 2 years ago (or what have you) and still nothing
That's my main beef. If you're going to continue to sell a product then you must maintain that product. They either need to bring the thing up to date, stop selling it or at the very least put a 'THIS IS AN ORPHANED PRODUCT' disclaimer on the website.
#7
Considering Torque 1.5 will have the TLK built into it, (This was another problem with the RTS kit that it was also another not out of the box solution to get it to work with the TLK 1.4), I am guessing we will see a release of the kit for 1.5. TLK combination into main TGE will make it much easier to support the product.
I'm just guessing here, I never dug too much into it beyond trying to get it to compile with 1.4. It was a hassle for a new guy.
- Dennis
10/15/2006 (11:32 am)
I agree. There were some in the community William Fox, etc who tried to bring it up to date with Torque and have. However, none of the files they submited to GG were posted. There was supposed to be a beta download somehwere and it all got lost in the suffle. Considering Torque 1.5 will have the TLK built into it, (This was another problem with the RTS kit that it was also another not out of the box solution to get it to work with the TLK 1.4), I am guessing we will see a release of the kit for 1.5. TLK combination into main TGE will make it much easier to support the product.
I'm just guessing here, I never dug too much into it beyond trying to get it to compile with 1.4. It was a hassle for a new guy.
- Dennis
#10
You can not update it to run with 1.4 because the place all the necessary files were hosted at no longer works, and no one can reach that guy by email.
You can check my older posts to learn about that.
The way Garage Games is set up, is that no one tells anyone what to work on. They just decide on their own what hours to work, and on what they choose to.
The community project had a lot of useful stuff listed which would really help everyone, but alas, certain files are missing, and what is there seems to lack some of the mentioned features, perhaps it an older outdated file. If they'd just find all of the work done by users on that, and include it in a proper working patch, that'd work great.
10/16/2006 (12:31 am)
In Torque speak, "coming soon" means either "whenever we get around to it, but certainly not within 6 months" or "never at all, just on permanent hold".You can not update it to run with 1.4 because the place all the necessary files were hosted at no longer works, and no one can reach that guy by email.
You can check my older posts to learn about that.
The way Garage Games is set up, is that no one tells anyone what to work on. They just decide on their own what hours to work, and on what they choose to.
The community project had a lot of useful stuff listed which would really help everyone, but alas, certain files are missing, and what is there seems to lack some of the mentioned features, perhaps it an older outdated file. If they'd just find all of the work done by users on that, and include it in a proper working patch, that'd work great.
#11
Using William Fox's guidelines, I was able to compile a Mac version of the RTS Kit for TGE 1.4. He even asked me to send him the solution so he in turn could to send it to GG for approval. I believe even Bob was involved regarding the TLK (sorry, not sure about that). Got my hopes up, then nothing...
Now, I might guess that perhaps we're in for a big surprise when 1.5 is released (the extras are defintely making the pot look sweet) but given GGs passion for making announcements months (MONTHS!) in advance of a products release, an RTS solution seems unlikely if we haven't heard anything by now.
They say you get what you pay for. Well, in that regard I can't complain too much. TGE and the RTS kit have been cheap investments that have provided a good return on my initial investment.
But still, here I am - frustrated.
10/16/2006 (4:28 am)
@Morrie - I've seen the "Coming Soon" too but anywhere else it usually means within a month or two (or even my life time). Let's look at Constructor for example: Why announce a product almost a year before it will be likely released? That's just being a tease! I'm a Mac user and salivate at the mere mention of Constructor! But I won't take that any further as it's OT.Using William Fox's guidelines, I was able to compile a Mac version of the RTS Kit for TGE 1.4. He even asked me to send him the solution so he in turn could to send it to GG for approval. I believe even Bob was involved regarding the TLK (sorry, not sure about that). Got my hopes up, then nothing...
Now, I might guess that perhaps we're in for a big surprise when 1.5 is released (the extras are defintely making the pot look sweet) but given GGs passion for making announcements months (MONTHS!) in advance of a products release, an RTS solution seems unlikely if we haven't heard anything by now.
They say you get what you pay for. Well, in that regard I can't complain too much. TGE and the RTS kit have been cheap investments that have provided a good return on my initial investment.
But still, here I am - frustrated.
#12
10/16/2006 (11:57 am)
As one of the RTS devs, I wanted to pop in here. Firstly, this is not correct:Quote:We have been doing a lot of things we don't want to do because it needs to be done. Updating the RTS kit seems like it should be one of those things to do, but right now it isn't. We are not working on game projects, we are working on tech, and once this is done, it will be a perfect time to do another pass on the RTS kit.
The way Garage Games is set up, is that no one tells anyone what to work on. They just decide on their own what hours to work, and on what they choose to.
#13
The problem with that is, the whole 'working on tech' is something that will never be done. For example, instead of finishing up TSE you're launched how many products in the interim? So what you are suggesting is that once you've 'finished' the current crop of technologies you'll not begin yet another tech project, instead actually do what you're supposed to do and maintain the products you're selling? Sorry if I don't buy it.
Pat, whoever is project mananger up at GG is doing a horrible job. You are selling an unfinished (insert clever pathfinding code here lol!) and quite broken 'starter kit' for $50 and have not demonstrated in any fashion acceptance of your responsibility for product maintenance. In my app-dev experience, easily 50% or more of a shop's resources go into application maintenance. GG is spending 0% on the back end. Are you arguing this is acceptable Pat? Because I'm arguing it's not.
10/16/2006 (12:44 pm)
Quote:
We have been doing a lot of things we don't want to do because it needs to be done. Updating the RTS kit seems like it should be one of those things to do, but right now it isn't. We are not working on game projects, we are working on tech, and once this is done, it will be a perfect time to do another pass on the RTS kit.
The problem with that is, the whole 'working on tech' is something that will never be done. For example, instead of finishing up TSE you're launched how many products in the interim? So what you are suggesting is that once you've 'finished' the current crop of technologies you'll not begin yet another tech project, instead actually do what you're supposed to do and maintain the products you're selling? Sorry if I don't buy it.
Pat, whoever is project mananger up at GG is doing a horrible job. You are selling an unfinished (insert clever pathfinding code here lol!) and quite broken 'starter kit' for $50 and have not demonstrated in any fashion acceptance of your responsibility for product maintenance. In my app-dev experience, easily 50% or more of a shop's resources go into application maintenance. GG is spending 0% on the back end. Are you arguing this is acceptable Pat? Because I'm arguing it's not.
#14
10/16/2006 (2:09 pm)
RTS Starter Pack will be ported to TGE 1.5 after that engine ships. As to the pathfinding code, there is no place in the product page that promises path finding code. This thread is closed. 
Torque Owner Richard Pettyjohn