Feeling upset over the state of the Linux version of TGB
by Christopher \"Pacula\" Corkum · in Torque Game Builder · 10/10/2006 (5:10 am) · 29 replies
I feel that I must register a complaint regarding the lack of public information about the Linux version of TGB. While I did realize that the Linux version of TGB wasn't "officially" supported, the publicly-available information I was able to find seemed indicate that, at worst, the Linux version wasn't kept as up-to-date as the official Windows and OS X builds. So, thinking that I wouldn't have to deal with anything more serious than working around issues whose fixes hadn't trickled down to the Linux version yet, I went and purchased a license.
The word "shocked" does not even begin to describe my feelings as the true state of the Linux version became clear.
Simply put, there doesn't seem to be any way to obtain a usable Linux version of TGB at ALL at the moment. As I said before, I did realize before purchasing a licence that the Linux version wasn't "officially supported", but I had -no- idea how far the lack of support went, and I don't think it's unfair for me to feel upset over the matter.
The problems I am having with the 'current' Linux release are as follows, and occur in the included pre-built binary, as well as the versions I've compiled myself with gcc version 3.3.6 and 4.1.1.
- The framerate of both the TGB interface as well as any games running under it is abysmal - three-to-five frames a second at the most. Note that this is NOT due to lack of properly set up video drivers - I have no problems at all with any other hardware-accelerated programs, including TGE. I've also confirmed that TGB -is- reporting to the console that it's using the accelerated nvidia drivers, rather than accidently using mesa or some other software-based openGL layer.
- In addition to the painful framerate, the % of CPU time that TGB uses is consistently in the 95%-99% range, both while in the development interface and when trying to run a game.
- The 'open project' dialog is a non-functional blank window. with only the 'cancel' and 'OK' buttons being displayed.
- The 'create new project' dialog seems to display properly, but is missing a lot of the options that should be showing up in the pulldowns, and doesn't actually DO anything when the 'create' button is pressed.
In addition to the 1.1.1 Linux download, I have also tried compiling the 1.1.2 source code included with the OSX version. The only real difference from 1.1.1 that I could tell was the framerate - rather than a consistently slow rate, it would 'surge' - running at a still-slow-but-better-than-1.1.1 rate much of the time, but 'freezing' for a split second every few moments. The other issues (broken dialogs and maxed-out CPU usage) remain.
In addition to the problems in TGB itself, there are a number of problems with the website that make finding information on these issues virtually impossible. The biggest problems are the lack of a Linux-specific forum for TGB, and the lack of a means to search the forums. short of scanning through the thread subjects manually. What little information I've been able to find relates to patching older 'pre-release' versions of the TGB codebase that are no longer available. I am also aware of the t2d-linux mailing list, but like the forums posts, the information there is also now out of date, and the mailing list seems to have been dormant for months.
I'm not really sure of the best way to resolve this matter, but I can think of a few things that would help:
- Provide -some- working version of TGB for Linux - at the very least, give access to the older versions of the source code that the community DID create fixes and patches for.
- Add a Linux-specific forum for TGB on the site.
- Provide a better means of searching the forums, so it's actually possible to find the Linux-related posts without having to manually scan through the list of thread subjects.
- Be more clear about the state of the Linux version in the public information on TGB. At the very least, explain that the Linux version might not be functional at ALL.
- Christopher Corkum - SweetLeaf Studios
The word "shocked" does not even begin to describe my feelings as the true state of the Linux version became clear.
Simply put, there doesn't seem to be any way to obtain a usable Linux version of TGB at ALL at the moment. As I said before, I did realize before purchasing a licence that the Linux version wasn't "officially supported", but I had -no- idea how far the lack of support went, and I don't think it's unfair for me to feel upset over the matter.
The problems I am having with the 'current' Linux release are as follows, and occur in the included pre-built binary, as well as the versions I've compiled myself with gcc version 3.3.6 and 4.1.1.
- The framerate of both the TGB interface as well as any games running under it is abysmal - three-to-five frames a second at the most. Note that this is NOT due to lack of properly set up video drivers - I have no problems at all with any other hardware-accelerated programs, including TGE. I've also confirmed that TGB -is- reporting to the console that it's using the accelerated nvidia drivers, rather than accidently using mesa or some other software-based openGL layer.
- In addition to the painful framerate, the % of CPU time that TGB uses is consistently in the 95%-99% range, both while in the development interface and when trying to run a game.
- The 'open project' dialog is a non-functional blank window. with only the 'cancel' and 'OK' buttons being displayed.
- The 'create new project' dialog seems to display properly, but is missing a lot of the options that should be showing up in the pulldowns, and doesn't actually DO anything when the 'create' button is pressed.
In addition to the 1.1.1 Linux download, I have also tried compiling the 1.1.2 source code included with the OSX version. The only real difference from 1.1.1 that I could tell was the framerate - rather than a consistently slow rate, it would 'surge' - running at a still-slow-but-better-than-1.1.1 rate much of the time, but 'freezing' for a split second every few moments. The other issues (broken dialogs and maxed-out CPU usage) remain.
In addition to the problems in TGB itself, there are a number of problems with the website that make finding information on these issues virtually impossible. The biggest problems are the lack of a Linux-specific forum for TGB, and the lack of a means to search the forums. short of scanning through the thread subjects manually. What little information I've been able to find relates to patching older 'pre-release' versions of the TGB codebase that are no longer available. I am also aware of the t2d-linux mailing list, but like the forums posts, the information there is also now out of date, and the mailing list seems to have been dormant for months.
I'm not really sure of the best way to resolve this matter, but I can think of a few things that would help:
- Provide -some- working version of TGB for Linux - at the very least, give access to the older versions of the source code that the community DID create fixes and patches for.
- Add a Linux-specific forum for TGB on the site.
- Provide a better means of searching the forums, so it's actually possible to find the Linux-related posts without having to manually scan through the list of thread subjects.
- Be more clear about the state of the Linux version in the public information on TGB. At the very least, explain that the Linux version might not be functional at ALL.
- Christopher Corkum - SweetLeaf Studios
Thread is locked
#2
On that note, I agree with you that it would be nice of GG to facilitate it by providing a forum for it. There is also the IRC server that's always got Torque developers and GG employees logged on. To say that GG has somehow suddenly changed scope or abandoned a product range is silly. The collaboration to get TGE functional on Linux was just that, a collaberation. It shows that the community wanted to get the Linux version of TGE up and running. This, however, is probably the first post I may have ever seen by a community member in regards to a Linux version of TGB.
There is no thriving collaboration simply because there just isnt a vocal group of Linux developers in the community working on TGB. To that end, I'll see what I can do about trying to get you guys a forum to help drive an organized community effort.
Again, I'm sorry for your frustration, guys.
10/11/2006 (2:03 am)
I'm sorry for your frustrations. The product page for TGB does say, as you noted, that there is no official TGB for Linux. "Linux version is supported by the community" means that GG is not developing it and is not responsible for it, but rather it is up to the community to develop and maintain. Fully functional TGB for Linux would be fantastic, but GG does not have the resources for it right now. On that note, I agree with you that it would be nice of GG to facilitate it by providing a forum for it. There is also the IRC server that's always got Torque developers and GG employees logged on. To say that GG has somehow suddenly changed scope or abandoned a product range is silly. The collaboration to get TGE functional on Linux was just that, a collaberation. It shows that the community wanted to get the Linux version of TGE up and running. This, however, is probably the first post I may have ever seen by a community member in regards to a Linux version of TGB.
There is no thriving collaboration simply because there just isnt a vocal group of Linux developers in the community working on TGB. To that end, I'll see what I can do about trying to get you guys a forum to help drive an organized community effort.
Again, I'm sorry for your frustration, guys.
#3
A swift reply shows that we don't post in vain. Even if I never thought nobody read the forums, it's nice to get some 'official' attention :-)
What you said is also true... the TGB Linux community hasn't been very outspoken until now. Maybe the other linux users just bide their time, trying to get something done in Windows or Linux or whatever platform before they fill up the forums with complaints and frustrations. Everyone has his way of doing things, and I like to communicate, just to make sure I have the right perspective. I might have overdone things a bit, and for that I apologise.
I'll try to get some other people involved in defining what are the most frustrating problems at the moment on Linux, just to get an idea of who's likely to be involved.
I'll be looking out for that torque part of the forums. I'm not really a IRC guy myself. Given the fact that I'm based in Europe, I doubt there would be much activity the hours I'm online.
Well, I might take a look :-)
Thanks!
10/11/2006 (3:56 am)
@ Thomas : Thanks for the swift reply. You just made my day :-) A swift reply shows that we don't post in vain. Even if I never thought nobody read the forums, it's nice to get some 'official' attention :-)
What you said is also true... the TGB Linux community hasn't been very outspoken until now. Maybe the other linux users just bide their time, trying to get something done in Windows or Linux or whatever platform before they fill up the forums with complaints and frustrations. Everyone has his way of doing things, and I like to communicate, just to make sure I have the right perspective. I might have overdone things a bit, and for that I apologise.
I'll try to get some other people involved in defining what are the most frustrating problems at the moment on Linux, just to get an idea of who's likely to be involved.
I'll be looking out for that torque part of the forums. I'm not really a IRC guy myself. Given the fact that I'm based in Europe, I doubt there would be much activity the hours I'm online.
Well, I might take a look :-)
Thanks!
#4
From the t2dlinux mailing list archives and the few Linux related posts I've found, it seems there was a working version at one point, comprised of an earlier version of the source code, and a number of patches supplied by the community. But - unless I'm missing something - that doesn't seem to be a workable solution at the moment, as the older versions of the source code the patches/fixed were for are no longer available, the community-contributed patches/fixes were not integrated into the official code, and the community has not released new versions of the patches for the current code, mainly out of frustration over .
There's a pretty big difference between a 'community supported' version and a 'non-functional version that the community is welcome to fix but we don't care about'. The statement on the public page implies that there IS a functional version - one that isn't officially supported and hence might be a bit behind and buggier than the official release, but still existing and usable.
I suippose I could be given the usual 'you've got the code - go fix it yourself' comment that is often thrown at people complaining about about problems with the open-source/'free' software that is ubitquious in Linux, but TGB is NOT open-source in that sense - one needs to PAY to get access to the code. I don't have the knowledge or experience to fix the problems myself, and though I do know some people who might be able to, I can't hand over the code to them without them buying a license themselves.
Alright, now that I think about that, that might be the root problem right there: the Linux version of TGB is sort of 'half-way' between commercial and open-source, taking on the -worst- aspects of each. It's a commercial product in the sense that the code is not free in either sense, and yet GG expects a 'community' to come along and support it, fixing the bugs and keeping it up to date, as if it was an open-source project.
Dammit, I really hate to complain like this about GG, since I've always considered them one of the 'good guys' in the game industry, both supporting the 'alternative' OSs, and going out of their way to make their products accessible to the 'indy' game developer. But in this case, I really feel like GG has made a pretty serious error, and I would like to see SOMETHING done to clear this matter up. As good as TGB seems to be, it's no use to me if I can't use it to develop for my target platform.
- Christopher Corkum - SweetLeaf Studios
10/11/2006 (6:59 am)
I appreciate the feedback, but I still think that "Linux version is supported by the community" comment is at least partially misleading. As I said before, at the moment there apparently NO way to get a functional Linux version of TGB at the moment. From the t2dlinux mailing list archives and the few Linux related posts I've found, it seems there was a working version at one point, comprised of an earlier version of the source code, and a number of patches supplied by the community. But - unless I'm missing something - that doesn't seem to be a workable solution at the moment, as the older versions of the source code the patches/fixed were for are no longer available, the community-contributed patches/fixes were not integrated into the official code, and
There's a pretty big difference between a 'community supported' version and a 'non-functional version that the community is welcome to fix but we don't care about'. The statement on the public page implies that there IS a functional version - one that isn't officially supported and hence might be a bit behind and buggier than the official release, but still existing and usable.
I suippose I could be given the usual 'you've got the code - go fix it yourself' comment that is often thrown at people complaining about about problems with the open-source/'free' software that is ubitquious in Linux, but TGB is NOT open-source in that sense - one needs to PAY to get access to the code. I don't have the knowledge or experience to fix the problems myself, and though I do know some people who might be able to, I can't hand over the code to them without them buying a license themselves.
Alright, now that I think about that, that might be the root problem right there: the Linux version of TGB is sort of 'half-way' between commercial and open-source, taking on the -worst- aspects of each. It's a commercial product in the sense that the code is not free in either sense, and yet GG expects a 'community' to come along and support it, fixing the bugs and keeping it up to date, as if it was an open-source project.
Dammit, I really hate to complain like this about GG, since I've always considered them one of the 'good guys' in the game industry, both supporting the 'alternative' OSs, and going out of their way to make their products accessible to the 'indy' game developer. But in this case, I really feel like GG has made a pretty serious error, and I would like to see SOMETHING done to clear this matter up. As good as TGB seems to be, it's no use to me if I can't use it to develop for my target platform.
- Christopher Corkum - SweetLeaf Studios
#5
Let me know if you are interested in getting TGB-Linux up-to-date and please include me in any of your plans.
Thanks,
Jerry
Hall Of Worlds - For Gamers
Edit: syntax
10/11/2006 (8:13 am)
@Christopher & David, There was a vocal linux group working on TGB. They even set up a TGB-Linux mailing list. However there has not been much mail since late July 2006 so I am guessing it more or less disbanded. You can use either the latest win or mac version, recompiling of course, but there are menu issues (i.e. can't open new projects or resources.) Beta4 works better than the latest :(Let me know if you are interested in getting TGB-Linux up-to-date and please include me in any of your plans.
Thanks,
Jerry
Edit: syntax
#6
We will be removing all references to Linux support on TGB. We are the good guys and we do not want to have people like yourself feel ripped off. If you feel wronged, we will give you your money back. Same goes for any of you, but remember if you do choose to get a refund, that you cannot use TGB on OSX or Windows either.
-Jeff Tunnell, GG
10/11/2006 (8:19 am)
Christopher: Eleven months ago I posted this blog about how GarageGames needed to step back from Linux support. We are finding on TGE that even with great community support, it is taking a lot of Matt's time to keep the Linux version in synch. We don't "expect" community support at all, it was just a method of allowing Linux supporters band together to have access to a great game engine for their platform of choice.We will be removing all references to Linux support on TGB. We are the good guys and we do not want to have people like yourself feel ripped off. If you feel wronged, we will give you your money back. Same goes for any of you, but remember if you do choose to get a refund, that you cannot use TGB on OSX or Windows either.
-Jeff Tunnell, GG
#7
10/11/2006 (8:32 am)
Considering that the TGE forum has a linux & mac specific areas, could TGB have the same?
#8
10/11/2006 (9:03 am)
Here is a TGB Linux forum: www.garagegames.com/mg/forums/result.thread.php?qt=52153 
#9
I know several tried really hard to keep up changes as the rapid release was in progress before TGB final was released (I barely helped. but threw a few bits and pieces in).But I think the core issue here is just simply communication and timing. I've had pretty good luck and performance with TGB on linux personally, but I had to draw a line in the sand to get there. I stayed on the RC3 and just kept hacking at it until I got the desired results. I dont use any of the visual tools built into TGB for development on linux, maybe thats a hint for those trying to port their game or write them natively on linux. I have had very good luck writing the levels for my project in the windows version, bringing it over into linux, and tweaking the bits and pieces of the project as needed. I think a core factor for linux development of games is having a strong enough c++ background to twiddle where necessary, and I dont know if the linux ports will ever be as "easy to use" as the windows and mac versions, but really I dont consider that to be a showstopper.
That being said, I have learned alot about the core TGB engine code attempting this, and its made my games better in the long run. Knowing the core of the engine is really the key I think to building a solid polished game anyway.
I would love to have a real community come into existence, and would be willing to help out where I'm able.
I think the forums that just created shows that GG is still willing to throw resources at this... Now its time for strong community members to come forward and bang away.....
Just my perspective...
--Rodney Rindels
Gun For Hire
10/11/2006 (9:12 am)
I think one issue has been that the TGE versions have had CVS access for the community members (*I would assume this would be a GG Controlled thing because of licensing) and such that I know has been requested for TGB as well. I'm not sure if its just because source control or branch management and responsibility, but as far as I know that was never given, and could help to foster a stronger community. Personally being able to diff the versions easily is a core requirement for hacking the changes and keeping up things in a more posixy way. doing a cvs update would save time and remove the anomoly of system differences and new file additions, etc.I know several tried really hard to keep up changes as the rapid release was in progress before TGB final was released (I barely helped. but threw a few bits and pieces in).But I think the core issue here is just simply communication and timing. I've had pretty good luck and performance with TGB on linux personally, but I had to draw a line in the sand to get there. I stayed on the RC3 and just kept hacking at it until I got the desired results. I dont use any of the visual tools built into TGB for development on linux, maybe thats a hint for those trying to port their game or write them natively on linux. I have had very good luck writing the levels for my project in the windows version, bringing it over into linux, and tweaking the bits and pieces of the project as needed. I think a core factor for linux development of games is having a strong enough c++ background to twiddle where necessary, and I dont know if the linux ports will ever be as "easy to use" as the windows and mac versions, but really I dont consider that to be a showstopper.
That being said, I have learned alot about the core TGB engine code attempting this, and its made my games better in the long run. Knowing the core of the engine is really the key I think to building a solid polished game anyway.
I would love to have a real community come into existence, and would be willing to help out where I'm able.
I think the forums that just created shows that GG is still willing to throw resources at this... Now its time for strong community members to come forward and bang away.....
Just my perspective...
--Rodney Rindels
Gun For Hire
#10
Thanks Jeff!!!!
Regards,
Dreamer
10/11/2006 (9:50 am)
Hey guys I deleted my previous post since they gave us a forum all our own... Woot!Thanks Jeff!!!!
Regards,
Dreamer
#11
I bought both TGE and TGB when both product pages still had no warning at all about the Linux versions not running or being community supported.
I complained about it here and I was heard - sort of. I think the right thing for GG to do was to offer themselves to return my money but of course, they didn't do that because I had already downloaded the products or whatever reason.
The thing is, we still don't have Linux versions working 100%. In my case, I was promised one, which is even worst. So I really don't know what to do. I already lost a golden opportunity because of all this crap and I can't feel anything but anger and frustration. Since I don't think any of those two feelings is any productive, I kind of gave up on GG. Unfortunately, they've got my money in their pockets and are now laughing on my face but hey, what can I do? I think I'll stick with Ogre, SDL, ClanLib and a few other Free Software libraries. At least I know those work in any platform and the people who make them are good enough programmers who don't need the excuse of not having enough people to work on platform-independent code.
Enough said, I think.
Raul
10/11/2006 (4:00 pm)
Well, if you feel frustrated about having purchased TGB and knowing beforehand that it was community supported, imagine how you would feel if you bought it *before* GG said anything about it at all...I bought both TGE and TGB when both product pages still had no warning at all about the Linux versions not running or being community supported.
I complained about it here and I was heard - sort of. I think the right thing for GG to do was to offer themselves to return my money but of course, they didn't do that because I had already downloaded the products or whatever reason.
The thing is, we still don't have Linux versions working 100%. In my case, I was promised one, which is even worst. So I really don't know what to do. I already lost a golden opportunity because of all this crap and I can't feel anything but anger and frustration. Since I don't think any of those two feelings is any productive, I kind of gave up on GG. Unfortunately, they've got my money in their pockets and are now laughing on my face but hey, what can I do? I think I'll stick with Ogre, SDL, ClanLib and a few other Free Software libraries. At least I know those work in any platform and the people who make them are good enough programmers who don't need the excuse of not having enough people to work on platform-independent code.
Enough said, I think.
Raul
#12
10/11/2006 (4:04 pm)
@ Raul: I think you need to read up a few posts where Jeff said:Quote:We are the good guys and we do not want to have people like yourself feel ripped off. If you feel wronged, we will give you your money back. Same goes for any of you, but remember if you do choose to get a refund, that you cannot use TGB on OSX or Windows either.
#13
This community is the very best community in the game development world, hands down.
Us "jaded" linux community are mostly able to handle porting issues if we can get heard. And the opening of the new TGB Linux forum I believe is GG listening to us and recognizing that we are important to them.
Regards,
Dreamer
p.s. I won't be asking for my money back, I was promised Win/Lin/Mac on everything I purchased as well. But I believe that the tools are powerful enough to be worth the effort to port them.
10/11/2006 (4:05 pm)
It's a matter of personal choice Raul, GG did promise crossplatform and did drop the ball. But you have something here you won't get at any other venue. Thats the GG community.This community is the very best community in the game development world, hands down.
Us "jaded" linux community are mostly able to handle porting issues if we can get heard. And the opening of the new TGB Linux forum I believe is GG listening to us and recognizing that we are important to them.
Regards,
Dreamer
p.s. I won't be asking for my money back, I was promised Win/Lin/Mac on everything I purchased as well. But I believe that the tools are powerful enough to be worth the effort to port them.
#14
Thankfully, most of this community is pretty positive about solving problems or asking for assistance and not too keen on ranting and whining, but when it does happen it's very dissapointing. The question is not the skill or numbers of our human resources, it's a basic cost/benefit analysis. If you had followed Jeff's link and actually read his blog post from a while back you might understand in what spirit the descision was made to hand off management of the Linux versions of our sortware to the community.
The Linux community is welcome here and it is not GG's intention to cut you guys off.
10/11/2006 (5:00 pm)
Raul, I'm sorry for your lost opportunity, but the truth is that you never actually asked GG for a refund.Quote:
[Aug 07, 2006 03:25]
TGB 1.1.1 for Linux is now available for download! I haven't tried it yet but it's good to finally see the Linux version get some love, too.
Thanks. Let's hope it gets updated in future releases :)
Raul
Thankfully, most of this community is pretty positive about solving problems or asking for assistance and not too keen on ranting and whining, but when it does happen it's very dissapointing. The question is not the skill or numbers of our human resources, it's a basic cost/benefit analysis. If you had followed Jeff's link and actually read his blog post from a while back you might understand in what spirit the descision was made to hand off management of the Linux versions of our sortware to the community.
The Linux community is welcome here and it is not GG's intention to cut you guys off.
#15
10/11/2006 (5:45 pm)
To be honest, They should drop the notion that TGB can be used with Linux.
#16
With a little bit of effort from the skilled folk in the community, TGB can be successful as was TGE when the community rallied together. Sure, it can be frustrating at times.. I should know, I've had T2D since the day it came out. Some days (ok, a lot of them), I've been tempted to drop everything in TGB completely, but other days, I try to make a go of it, & help out where I can. I still haven't upgraded my project from the 1.02 code base, but I'll see how things can turn out with (hopefully) renewed interest from the Linux coders here.
10/11/2006 (6:16 pm)
Why Dennis?With a little bit of effort from the skilled folk in the community, TGB can be successful as was TGE when the community rallied together. Sure, it can be frustrating at times.. I should know, I've had T2D since the day it came out. Some days (ok, a lot of them), I've been tempted to drop everything in TGB completely, but other days, I try to make a go of it, & help out where I can. I still haven't upgraded my project from the 1.02 code base, but I'll see how things can turn out with (hopefully) renewed interest from the Linux coders here.
#17
10/11/2006 (7:51 pm)
Don't get me wrong. I would love to see TGB for Linux. It is misleading to say at this point there even is a community for it. The new message board is a great start though :)
#18
Well, you'd be wrong.
TGB runs just fine on linux.
10/11/2006 (8:07 pm)
>It is misleading to say at this point there even is a community for it.Well, you'd be wrong.
TGB runs just fine on linux.
#19
That's great news! Can you point me to the TDN article and resources on that?
10/12/2006 (10:23 am)
@David,That's great news! Can you point me to the TDN article and resources on that?
Torque Owner David Janssens
Nebulagame.com
All I'm asking is a bit more openness and structure. Create the structure for the community that has the skill and the drive to further finish up the linux codebase. Have a part of the forum (even a tiny part) that is dedicated to Linux. That way, you can concentrate all Linux knowledge in one place, and the users don't get that easily frustrated, like Christopher and myself.
I find it hard to believe my system can run UT2004 without any speed problem, but that it hasn't got the muscle to run the TGB game builder without having a mouse that jumps over the screen because it can't keep up with my (slow) movements. As the editors are written in the same framework as the game, I guess there are some low-level optimisations that are needed to speed things up considerably.
You can't do all you imagine in a software project, so you have to redimension the features on the basis of the people that can work on it. The community has proven that it wants to help GG to lend a hand with a specific part of the work. Why not let them?
I really like the engine, but Linux is one of my requirements. What good does it do if you can't publish on one of your key platforms, that you can create content much more efficiently? I hope something comes out of this...
Thanks