XNA and the alike crap. What a dissapointment
by Exones · in General Discussion · 08/22/2006 (3:31 pm) · 45 replies
Hi to all
I just want to make clear a few things about the XNA, Torque and XBOX360.
Most of the people i know, heard the news about how good the XNA is, and that it will bring a revolution to the games developer world, and that it gives a chance to all the no big budget guys to create games for the XBOX360 and how its the beginning of the developer revolution and that XNA Game Studio will give anyone with a Windows XP-based PC access to a unified development tool that liberates the creation of great Xbox 360 and Windows XP-compatible games, providing a new alternative to the existing multithousand-dollar development kits that many console games require blah blah blah blah blah.
So everyone at least that i know thought that after lots of hard work they could create an XBox game in their small games company studio and sell it and make a tiny profit to begin and all that and make a living out of that job etc and so on.
Well that is not the case guys sorry.
Everything about the whole XNA, Torque XBox thing is written in a way to make you believe that yeah that is your chance and that this is a revolution or whatever. The thing is that you can spend a life time creating XBOX 360 games and of course practice and develop all your skills and play your games and share them but never SELL them... lol. If you want to develop and sell games for Xbox and make profit for your small studio-team and then move on to the next project ....you still need to be a big budget studio and be able to afford the multithousand-dollar development kits, their licenses and all that. Sorry guys that is the truth and that is the way it is.
I just wanted to say all this because i know many people that own small teams and studios and they had big hopes for making console games and sell them and continue their game businesses.
Ofcourse they all care for Xbox because all the money and future are in console games cause as you know the PC games genre is almost dead since piracy rules these days. PC games are not profitable anymore.
Of course all the XNA thing is fantastic news for Universities and Colleges, Schools and completely hobbyists as long as they don't try to sell their game.........lol
That is all.
Exones
I just want to make clear a few things about the XNA, Torque and XBOX360.
Most of the people i know, heard the news about how good the XNA is, and that it will bring a revolution to the games developer world, and that it gives a chance to all the no big budget guys to create games for the XBOX360 and how its the beginning of the developer revolution and that XNA Game Studio will give anyone with a Windows XP-based PC access to a unified development tool that liberates the creation of great Xbox 360 and Windows XP-compatible games, providing a new alternative to the existing multithousand-dollar development kits that many console games require blah blah blah blah blah.
So everyone at least that i know thought that after lots of hard work they could create an XBox game in their small games company studio and sell it and make a tiny profit to begin and all that and make a living out of that job etc and so on.
Well that is not the case guys sorry.
Everything about the whole XNA, Torque XBox thing is written in a way to make you believe that yeah that is your chance and that this is a revolution or whatever. The thing is that you can spend a life time creating XBOX 360 games and of course practice and develop all your skills and play your games and share them but never SELL them... lol. If you want to develop and sell games for Xbox and make profit for your small studio-team and then move on to the next project ....you still need to be a big budget studio and be able to afford the multithousand-dollar development kits, their licenses and all that. Sorry guys that is the truth and that is the way it is.
I just wanted to say all this because i know many people that own small teams and studios and they had big hopes for making console games and sell them and continue their game businesses.
Ofcourse they all care for Xbox because all the money and future are in console games cause as you know the PC games genre is almost dead since piracy rules these days. PC games are not profitable anymore.
Of course all the XNA thing is fantastic news for Universities and Colleges, Schools and completely hobbyists as long as they don't try to sell their game.........lol
That is all.
Exones
About the author
#2
08/22/2006 (3:44 pm)
Iirc, You'll be allowed to distribute your Xbox 360 game over XBLA if you subscribe to XNA Pro when it's released.
#3
Hmph. I thought this was already quite obvious. Infact if you read the WHOLE TorqueX page, I believe it even says that.
EDIT :
I was right. Direct quote from the TorqueX page-
"To be clear, XNA Game Studio Express doesn't allow Indies to distribute or sell their games on the Xbox 360."
08/22/2006 (3:50 pm)
@ExonesHmph. I thought this was already quite obvious. Infact if you read the WHOLE TorqueX page, I believe it even says that.
EDIT :
I was right. Direct quote from the TorqueX page-
"To be clear, XNA Game Studio Express doesn't allow Indies to distribute or sell their games on the Xbox 360."
#4
What is stopping a small studio from being officially registered and licensed Xbox 360 developer? some polishing work and a smooth talker.
Now the last part is getting the 360 dev kit, but after going past the last two points this is not really a concern.
If you get your hands around XNA express and feel you do have what it takes to release a quality and fun game... then gather the funds, purchase XNA Pro and get busy talking to GG and MS.
08/22/2006 (4:03 pm)
What is stopping a small studio with a solid game from coming up with the 10 grand i belive, to get a license to run torque on XBox live arcade? nothing.What is stopping a small studio from being officially registered and licensed Xbox 360 developer? some polishing work and a smooth talker.
Now the last part is getting the 360 dev kit, but after going past the last two points this is not really a concern.
If you get your hands around XNA express and feel you do have what it takes to release a quality and fun game... then gather the funds, purchase XNA Pro and get busy talking to GG and MS.
#5
Please before stating things as a fact (which you implied it as such by saying "Well that is not the case guys sorry. ") do all your homework on what you are talking about else you could give out the wrong info to people unintentionally.
I second Okashira's point where he says:
The gist-
XNA comes (well, will come) in two flavours: express + pro. Express lets you develop for 360, Pro will come later and also I believe be more aimed at the bigger boys. Pro will let you distribute and sell. You seem to miss the point that one of the major hurdles is getting the decent tools to develop with. This is what GG is all about, providing the tools + the means for people to get developing. Once you have developed something you can then pitch to publishers.
08/22/2006 (4:16 pm)
Exones:Please before stating things as a fact (which you implied it as such by saying "Well that is not the case guys sorry. ") do all your homework on what you are talking about else you could give out the wrong info to people unintentionally.
I second Okashira's point where he says:
Quote:Infact if you read the WHOLE TorqueX page...
The gist-
XNA comes (well, will come) in two flavours: express + pro. Express lets you develop for 360, Pro will come later and also I believe be more aimed at the bigger boys. Pro will let you distribute and sell. You seem to miss the point that one of the major hurdles is getting the decent tools to develop with. This is what GG is all about, providing the tools + the means for people to get developing. Once you have developed something you can then pitch to publishers.
#6
08/22/2006 (4:34 pm)
I don't usually waste my time with this stuff. But for someone who just joined the site, and gathering from other posts has no idea how 3d technology works, you certainly have a lot to say about a lot of things that you know nothing about.
#7
I wouldn't bother sharing my games and source with others in the club though, too much of an opportunity to get your good ideas or even entire game ripped off before you ever get to the point of selling.
I think its worth $100 a year just to play with yourself on your xbox 360. Whether Torque X is too simple a game creator type tool still has to be seen. If its too like TGB it's probably not going to be my cup of tea. Too early to say for sure though :)
08/22/2006 (4:42 pm)
Theres nothing stopping you making your game and testing it on your own 360 I think, and theres no reason you cant use it as a prototyping tool without ever showing your game. I wouldn't bother sharing my games and source with others in the club though, too much of an opportunity to get your good ideas or even entire game ripped off before you ever get to the point of selling.
I think its worth $100 a year just to play with yourself on your xbox 360. Whether Torque X is too simple a game creator type tool still has to be seen. If its too like TGB it's probably not going to be my cup of tea. Too early to say for sure though :)
#8
08/22/2006 (4:53 pm)
@Pat: You are my hero. Well said. 
#9
Garagegames is not about the easy path to success, it's about the journey as an indie game dev, which is never easy. The way I see it, Xna and TorqueX remove obstacles that were practically insurmountable before and also give you more options.
"I just wanted to say all this because i know many people that own small teams and studios and they had big hopes for making console games and sell them and continue their game businesses.
Ofcourse they all care for Xbox because all the money and future are in console games cause as you know the PC games genre is almost dead since piracy rules these days. PC games are not profitable anymore."
So we should just give up on PC games, the pirates have won. While we're at it, why don't we have a group hug and have a good cry? We are just at the beginning of the indie revolution. In the past few years it came out of nowhere and grew until today the biggest seller on XBLA is Marble blast ultra. The same game ships with new Macs, and complete game engines are being built for indies. It's a lifestyle where people don't give up and welcome every new opportunity.
All I'm saying is that your post brings nothing constructive to the table, man.
08/22/2006 (6:03 pm)
@Exones : I see this as a great opportunity! Garagegames is not about the easy path to success, it's about the journey as an indie game dev, which is never easy. The way I see it, Xna and TorqueX remove obstacles that were practically insurmountable before and also give you more options.
"I just wanted to say all this because i know many people that own small teams and studios and they had big hopes for making console games and sell them and continue their game businesses.
Ofcourse they all care for Xbox because all the money and future are in console games cause as you know the PC games genre is almost dead since piracy rules these days. PC games are not profitable anymore."
So we should just give up on PC games, the pirates have won. While we're at it, why don't we have a group hug and have a good cry? We are just at the beginning of the indie revolution. In the past few years it came out of nowhere and grew until today the biggest seller on XBLA is Marble blast ultra. The same game ships with new Macs, and complete game engines are being built for indies. It's a lifestyle where people don't give up and welcome every new opportunity.
All I'm saying is that your post brings nothing constructive to the table, man.
#10
The PC Games genre is dead, huh? Well let me know when you unsubscribe to your PC Developer/Game magazines and newsletters and stop making games for the PC.
In actuallity, you can make more money on a PC then on a console, since there is no $15K+ packages a $100+ a year memberships to pay for BEFORE you can ever release your game. Also, pirating doesn't seem to be to big in the casual gaming market(the casual gaming market is probably over 70% of indie game revenue). A normal Joe Schmo doesn't seem to interested in waiting four hours for a bit-torrent to download :).
EDIT : Sorry, I tend to get defensive of the PC game market. Remember, the a big part of the indie market revolves around Joe Schmo. Most of the time Joe Schmo doesn't lay down $500+ for a console game he is gonna play a half-hour a night after his 7-to-6.
08/22/2006 (6:18 pm)
@ExonesThe PC Games genre is dead, huh? Well let me know when you unsubscribe to your PC Developer/Game magazines and newsletters and stop making games for the PC.
In actuallity, you can make more money on a PC then on a console, since there is no $15K+ packages a $100+ a year memberships to pay for BEFORE you can ever release your game. Also, pirating doesn't seem to be to big in the casual gaming market(the casual gaming market is probably over 70% of indie game revenue). A normal Joe Schmo doesn't seem to interested in waiting four hours for a bit-torrent to download :).
EDIT : Sorry, I tend to get defensive of the PC game market. Remember, the a big part of the indie market revolves around Joe Schmo. Most of the time Joe Schmo doesn't lay down $500+ for a console game he is gonna play a half-hour a night after his 7-to-6.
#11
Now it's like making games for the portals on the web. Your game has to be sellable to get on the portals. This is a good thing. But the big point here is: now at least you have access to the console to make a game that can be sold on 360 Live Arcade if it's up to standard.
If your game is quality, you have nothing to worry about here. You will get your game on the 360 for sale.
Anyway. In my opinion, only one thing is worse than a console with no games... one with 10,000 crappy games.
08/22/2006 (6:27 pm)
I'm glad that opening the 360 up for anyone to make a game for it doesn't mean opening it up for anyone to sell a game on. Can you imagine the crap deluge there would be? Nobody would be able to sell anything if there are 1000s of games available indescriminately on 360 Live Arcade. It would turn the 360 into a yard sale. Nobody would want to buy from 360 Live Arcade after buying 2-3 games that are total crap.Now it's like making games for the portals on the web. Your game has to be sellable to get on the portals. This is a good thing. But the big point here is: now at least you have access to the console to make a game that can be sold on 360 Live Arcade if it's up to standard.
If your game is quality, you have nothing to worry about here. You will get your game on the 360 for sale.
Anyway. In my opinion, only one thing is worse than a console with no games... one with 10,000 crappy games.
#12
08/22/2006 (7:53 pm)
I will be interested in seeing what hackers do with XNA. You know those guys never stop cranking out the goods!
#13
I don't think there is ANYTHING preventing a non 'big budget studio' from going ahead with XNA and Torque X, creating a fantastic game, showing it to Microsoft and/or GarageGames; pushing to have it put on Xbox360's marketplace.
Microsoft is not the evil empire people make it out to be. If you have something that raises an eyebrow, they will sure as hell be interested and more than happy to help out.
08/22/2006 (8:23 pm)
I'm sorry but I don't believe a damn word of what you are saying, Exones.I don't think there is ANYTHING preventing a non 'big budget studio' from going ahead with XNA and Torque X, creating a fantastic game, showing it to Microsoft and/or GarageGames; pushing to have it put on Xbox360's marketplace.
Microsoft is not the evil empire people make it out to be. If you have something that raises an eyebrow, they will sure as hell be interested and more than happy to help out.
#14
#1) This is a way for people to build and test games on an xbox and then pitch a COMPLETED game to a publisher who's a LOT more likely to pick it up and cover the costs of the official dev kit (or pro version).
#2) You can sell any game built with XNA for the PC! This means you now have a C#, MANAGED solution to building PC games. Everyone seems to focus on the xbox 360 and XBLA, but I'm way more excited about the fact that a C# platform for building PC games is coming around.
#3) Microsoft will eventually get to the point where you can release Game Studio Express/XNA games for sale. Just look at vs.net 2005 express as a prime example. When Express first came out, you weren't allowed to use it for a released commercial product, now you can. It started as a free solution for hobbiests and schools and such, but quickly turned into a great small business tool.
08/23/2006 (7:29 am)
Well, although Exones is correct in the statement that you can't sell games (for the moment) via the XNA/Game Studio Express route, he is missing the point completely. #1) This is a way for people to build and test games on an xbox and then pitch a COMPLETED game to a publisher who's a LOT more likely to pick it up and cover the costs of the official dev kit (or pro version).
#2) You can sell any game built with XNA for the PC! This means you now have a C#, MANAGED solution to building PC games. Everyone seems to focus on the xbox 360 and XBLA, but I'm way more excited about the fact that a C# platform for building PC games is coming around.
#3) Microsoft will eventually get to the point where you can release Game Studio Express/XNA games for sale. Just look at vs.net 2005 express as a prime example. When Express first came out, you weren't allowed to use it for a released commercial product, now you can. It started as a free solution for hobbiests and schools and such, but quickly turned into a great small business tool.
#15
Okay, I'm going to go do something productive now.
08/23/2006 (7:29 am)
Oh, don't get me wrong. Microsoft is an evil empire. But sometimes it's okay to be a minion. I mean, I've shopped at Wal-Mart!Okay, I'm going to go do something productive now.
#17
08/23/2006 (8:00 am)
I've driven by Wal-Mart before. I try to get my wife not to go in there, but it usually plays out like Pirates of the Caribbean 2:Quote:There will come a moment when you'll have the chance to do the right thing.
I love those moments. I like to wave at them as they pass by.
#18
'you cannot sell your games you develop for xbox' meh, like i was going to anyway, but noe the potential exists, if nothging else you can seel your game to somebody who *can* sell to xbox
However lets consider possible futures here, MS may, just may, set up a division that retails indie games, in much the same way as you can distribute games through GG, except probably exclusivly through MS and probably at risk to your personal revenue but still, i and many others would consider this a huge leap forward for indies and the gaming industry alike.
Lets consider another future, MS (PC + Xbox) make up a pretty large market share of the gaming market, imagine for the next 2-3 years the universities of the world pumping out game dev/design students who are all MS experts, now imagine your the grand poobah of sony maybe even Nintendo having that same thought, personaly i'm fully expecting some response form at least sony, which again i believe will be good for the game industry and indy developers as a whole.
Either way to look at this as anything but positive, shows a deeply pessamistic nature altogether imo
08/23/2006 (8:17 am)
Why must people focus on the negative?'you cannot sell your games you develop for xbox' meh, like i was going to anyway, but noe the potential exists, if nothging else you can seel your game to somebody who *can* sell to xbox
However lets consider possible futures here, MS may, just may, set up a division that retails indie games, in much the same way as you can distribute games through GG, except probably exclusivly through MS and probably at risk to your personal revenue but still, i and many others would consider this a huge leap forward for indies and the gaming industry alike.
Lets consider another future, MS (PC + Xbox) make up a pretty large market share of the gaming market, imagine for the next 2-3 years the universities of the world pumping out game dev/design students who are all MS experts, now imagine your the grand poobah of sony maybe even Nintendo having that same thought, personaly i'm fully expecting some response form at least sony, which again i believe will be good for the game industry and indy developers as a whole.
Either way to look at this as anything but positive, shows a deeply pessamistic nature altogether imo
#19
Anyway, I digress. I do agree with the foresight of Uni's pumping out MS experts being an interesting thing. An industry grows on skills that are dominant in said industry... if there are a lot of skilled people using MS stuff then Sony will have to be the loser there surely.
Another thing I still dont see mentioned a lot (and its possibly what i find most exciting) is the ability to link up your 360 games and PC. Imagine making levels on your PC with a game you bought then playing them on 360 live with some guy from Japan/America/Europe/Far away :)
An ultimate geektoy I saw mentioned was doing bodypaint design work for cars on Forza on your phone/pda and then using them on 360... That sort of idea really excites me and I'm hoping it does others. Having XNA around helps to bridge that gap between pc/console quite well.
I see nothing but opportunity and brilliant potential in XNA, and I support it all the way.
08/23/2006 (8:27 am)
I cannot imagine Sony pulling something like this out of the bag. Sony have a track record of deciding what people want, rather than seeing what peopel want :) Current example of that is BlueRay... just who the hell at Sony thought "people will want to sell all their DVD stuff and buy into this tech when its only a recent thing that people have moved onto DVD" ?Anyway, I digress. I do agree with the foresight of Uni's pumping out MS experts being an interesting thing. An industry grows on skills that are dominant in said industry... if there are a lot of skilled people using MS stuff then Sony will have to be the loser there surely.
Another thing I still dont see mentioned a lot (and its possibly what i find most exciting) is the ability to link up your 360 games and PC. Imagine making levels on your PC with a game you bought then playing them on 360 live with some guy from Japan/America/Europe/Far away :)
An ultimate geektoy I saw mentioned was doing bodypaint design work for cars on Forza on your phone/pda and then using them on 360... That sort of idea really excites me and I'm hoping it does others. Having XNA around helps to bridge that gap between pc/console quite well.
I see nothing but opportunity and brilliant potential in XNA, and I support it all the way.
#20
I disagree here. Sony isn't the greatest when it comes to listening to the people who use/develop on their platforms, however they are good at doing market research and following lead when other huge companies like MS do things that become a success.
As for BlueRay, it's an incredible technology. You can store up to 5 times the amount of space as that of a DVD or more (duel layer blueray discs can store 50GB!) Not to mention all blueray disc players can play DVDs. BlueRay is also 5x the quality of DVD. BlueRay wasn't a bad idea or a bad move IMHO. The standard 'everyone's afraid of change' is something that we need to shed ourselves of and not hold back on new technologies that can reshape the way we do things.
Heck, they have holographic discs in development now that can store in the TB's! Now THAT is moving forward!
08/23/2006 (8:46 am)
Quote:I cannot imagine Sony pulling something like this out of the bag. Sony have a track record of deciding what people want, rather than seeing what peopel want :) Current example of that is BlueRay... just who the hell at Sony thought "people will want to sell all their DVD stuff and buy into this tech when its only a recent thing that people have moved onto DVD" ?
I disagree here. Sony isn't the greatest when it comes to listening to the people who use/develop on their platforms, however they are good at doing market research and following lead when other huge companies like MS do things that become a success.
As for BlueRay, it's an incredible technology. You can store up to 5 times the amount of space as that of a DVD or more (duel layer blueray discs can store 50GB!) Not to mention all blueray disc players can play DVDs. BlueRay is also 5x the quality of DVD. BlueRay wasn't a bad idea or a bad move IMHO. The standard 'everyone's afraid of change' is something that we need to shed ourselves of and not hold back on new technologies that can reshape the way we do things.
Heck, they have holographic discs in development now that can store in the TB's! Now THAT is moving forward!
Torque Owner Sam M