Synapse Gaming: Exciting New Product Announcement
by John Kabus (BobTheCBuilder) · in Torque Game Engine · 08/07/2006 (12:09 pm) · 49 replies
Hello Torque Lighting Kit Community!
GarageGames and Synapse Gaming are excited to announce the Torque Lighting Kit will be integrated into the Torque Shader Engine. Starting with milestone 4, TSE will include all of TLK's advanced lighting and rendering, and offer all of the same key features and tools TLK owners are accustomed to, with the added advantage of HDR, TSE's fully integrated shaders, and complete access to, and support for, the DirectX API.
This is the first official announcement or mention of the collaboration, and we wanted TLK licensees to be the first to know!
What does this mean for TLK?
Great things! TLK bug fixes and optimizations made during the development of TSE will be ported back into TLK for TGE.
And we already have another TLK release planned that rolls in fixes, optimizations, TGE 1.4.2, TGE Mac universal binaries, Xcode 2.x, RTS Kit 1.4 auto-patch support, and much, much more!
Will having TLK help me migrate to TSE?
Absolutely! TSE now uses the same lighting and rendering models as TLK, so you can easily port your existing assets to TSE with minimal effort or changes.
Because the lighting tools and methodologies are the same, using TSE will feel very familiar and comfortable.
TSE Milestone 4: Lighting and Shadows
Along with the existing TLK features, TSE's lighting and shadows include: self-shadowing DTS objects, lighting and shadows on Atlas terrain, High Dynamic Range Lighting and Tone Mapping (including a DRL solution), and full shader support for all lighting types - even on automatically generated shaders!
(assets provided by Exis Exchange)
More images and videos:
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3
Video 1
Video 2
Ok, enough teasing - when will MS4 be ready?!?
The most exciting news is that TSE MS4 will be released in mere days! Stay tuned for more details!
-John Kabus
Synapse Gaming
GarageGames and Synapse Gaming are excited to announce the Torque Lighting Kit will be integrated into the Torque Shader Engine. Starting with milestone 4, TSE will include all of TLK's advanced lighting and rendering, and offer all of the same key features and tools TLK owners are accustomed to, with the added advantage of HDR, TSE's fully integrated shaders, and complete access to, and support for, the DirectX API.
This is the first official announcement or mention of the collaboration, and we wanted TLK licensees to be the first to know!
What does this mean for TLK?
Great things! TLK bug fixes and optimizations made during the development of TSE will be ported back into TLK for TGE.
And we already have another TLK release planned that rolls in fixes, optimizations, TGE 1.4.2, TGE Mac universal binaries, Xcode 2.x, RTS Kit 1.4 auto-patch support, and much, much more!
Will having TLK help me migrate to TSE?
Absolutely! TSE now uses the same lighting and rendering models as TLK, so you can easily port your existing assets to TSE with minimal effort or changes.
Because the lighting tools and methodologies are the same, using TSE will feel very familiar and comfortable.
TSE Milestone 4: Lighting and Shadows
Along with the existing TLK features, TSE's lighting and shadows include: self-shadowing DTS objects, lighting and shadows on Atlas terrain, High Dynamic Range Lighting and Tone Mapping (including a DRL solution), and full shader support for all lighting types - even on automatically generated shaders!
(assets provided by Exis Exchange)
More images and videos:
Image 1
Image 2
Image 3
Video 1
Video 2
Ok, enough teasing - when will MS4 be ready?!?
The most exciting news is that TSE MS4 will be released in mere days! Stay tuned for more details!
-John Kabus
Synapse Gaming
#23
Congratulations John.
08/07/2006 (4:41 pm)
Wow, will definitely be checking this out for my current project!Congratulations John.
#24
08/07/2006 (8:55 pm)
Damn, I was going to buy a new phone... But now... Phone or TSE? PLEASE DON'T MAKE ME CHOOSE!
#25
As for work-flow when using such large textures; each Atlas geometry chunk is treated by the lighting system as a separate object, so when you use filtered lighting only the Atlas chunks in your working area are re-lit. :)
Also the lighting profiles work with the Atlas chunks too, so you can disable shadows and knock down the lighting quality to get near-realtime results.
The lighting system's shadow projectors are very flexible and adding projections from interior objects should be easy, however the static shadows are rendered for-free, so it's good to try to use them when possible.
08/07/2006 (8:58 pm)
Static objects cast static shadows (the objects never move), but if you're looking for higher detail in Atlas' static shadows, the lighting system gives you full control over the Atlas light map size. Also the Atlas light map is streamed into video memory like the chunked Atlas terrain textures, so you can have insanely large light maps.As for work-flow when using such large textures; each Atlas geometry chunk is treated by the lighting system as a separate object, so when you use filtered lighting only the Atlas chunks in your working area are re-lit. :)
Also the lighting profiles work with the Atlas chunks too, so you can disable shadows and knock down the lighting quality to get near-realtime results.
The lighting system's shadow projectors are very flexible and adding projections from interior objects should be easy, however the static shadows are rendered for-free, so it's good to try to use them when possible.
#26
08/08/2006 (12:40 am)
I must've read that first paragraph about five times! That's great news. So people that do not own TLK but own TSE will receive this as a gift!
#27
08/08/2006 (1:03 am)
And we'll receive state-of-the-art lighting model updates for TGE :P
#28
If you have a spare moment (which I doubt you will) could you provide some documentation on the fundamentals of the TSE TLK solution?
Have you overcome the problem of a lack of uniform lighting, if so how? By uniform lighting I'm referring to the imbalance between how dts shapes, dif interiors and terrain are all affected by light. Shadows as well to an extent.
Any juicy technical goodness you can release would be a good read.
Thanks.
- Tim
08/08/2006 (6:50 am)
John,If you have a spare moment (which I doubt you will) could you provide some documentation on the fundamentals of the TSE TLK solution?
Have you overcome the problem of a lack of uniform lighting, if so how? By uniform lighting I'm referring to the imbalance between how dts shapes, dif interiors and terrain are all affected by light. Shadows as well to an extent.
Any juicy technical goodness you can release would be a good read.
Thanks.
- Tim
#29
08/08/2006 (7:49 am)
Does the lighting model for dynamic models use stencil shadows? If not, does it still have the same problem as the shadows in TGE do? (ie it can clip the shadows incorrectly, causing gaps in the shadow)
#30
In TLK there are several different ways to light objects; vertex lighting through OpenGL (DTS objects), a 2D dynamic light texture (lightFalloffMono.png - on interiors and terrain), and static light mapping (on interiors and terrain).
Static lighting in TLK is the most accurate, and most lighting models look the same between DTS and interior objects (except the Advanced model which looks slightly different - it cannot be accurately represented on the vertex level).
The dynamic interior lighting (from TGE) works great and is efficient, but doesn't match any of the TLK lighting models, though the Advanced model was designed to come close and works well in most situations.
The TSE lighting system avoids all of this by using two methods (light mapping for static lights on interiors, the terrain, and Atlas - and dynamic light mapping for all DTS objects and any object lit by a dynamic light), both of which use the lighting models exactly the same way. Meaning the lighting intensity, falloff, and color look the same regardless of light type.
Btw: the Synapse Gaming dynamic light mapping technique doesn't require render-to-texture, frame captures, any per-frame/scene/object calculations, or any additional overhead. The data it uses is static and rendered for-free.
The shadows use a custom shadow mapping technique (also developed in-house). Shadow mapping allows for softer shadows and removes overhead related to edge detection, which can be high on detailed models, and the technique removes the art restrictions that stencil shadows impose (like completely closed and 100% clean meshes).
Right now the shadows clip against the interiors, terrain, and Atlas, but thats to avoid the shadows casting through things like walls or obstacles, or casting onto already shadowed areas. The technique makes it easy to add other objects and surfaces to render the shadow to, so you can extend the code to project through objects.
As for the other clipping issue related to having too small of a bounding box - there is a datablock shadow option that allows you to extend the shadow's area out to include more of the object. As an example Fluffy dances in the TSE demo, but the dancing is all in the DTS animation, meaning the object doesn't move, the DTS mesh moves relative to the object. In order to contain Fluffy I needed to extend the shadow area out 1.5x.
08/08/2006 (10:15 am)
Anyone who buys TSE is expecting to get a lighting system with their purchase (and they do), but they don't have access to the TLK lighting models, tools, and features for TGE (like TLK owners do). So they are limited to using TSE, which looks great, or stock TGE in their projects.In TLK there are several different ways to light objects; vertex lighting through OpenGL (DTS objects), a 2D dynamic light texture (lightFalloffMono.png - on interiors and terrain), and static light mapping (on interiors and terrain).
Static lighting in TLK is the most accurate, and most lighting models look the same between DTS and interior objects (except the Advanced model which looks slightly different - it cannot be accurately represented on the vertex level).
The dynamic interior lighting (from TGE) works great and is efficient, but doesn't match any of the TLK lighting models, though the Advanced model was designed to come close and works well in most situations.
The TSE lighting system avoids all of this by using two methods (light mapping for static lights on interiors, the terrain, and Atlas - and dynamic light mapping for all DTS objects and any object lit by a dynamic light), both of which use the lighting models exactly the same way. Meaning the lighting intensity, falloff, and color look the same regardless of light type.
Btw: the Synapse Gaming dynamic light mapping technique doesn't require render-to-texture, frame captures, any per-frame/scene/object calculations, or any additional overhead. The data it uses is static and rendered for-free.
The shadows use a custom shadow mapping technique (also developed in-house). Shadow mapping allows for softer shadows and removes overhead related to edge detection, which can be high on detailed models, and the technique removes the art restrictions that stencil shadows impose (like completely closed and 100% clean meshes).
Right now the shadows clip against the interiors, terrain, and Atlas, but thats to avoid the shadows casting through things like walls or obstacles, or casting onto already shadowed areas. The technique makes it easy to add other objects and surfaces to render the shadow to, so you can extend the code to project through objects.
As for the other clipping issue related to having too small of a bounding box - there is a datablock shadow option that allows you to extend the shadow's area out to include more of the object. As an example Fluffy dances in the TSE demo, but the dancing is all in the DTS animation, meaning the object doesn't move, the DTS mesh moves relative to the object. In order to contain Fluffy I needed to extend the shadow area out 1.5x.
#31
08/08/2006 (11:37 am)
Awesome :)
#32
08/08/2006 (12:08 pm)
Wow, simply amazing thanx john..
#33
08/08/2006 (3:49 pm)
Thanks John, thats really cool. Do you know if the new shadow code still has this problem? It doesn't appear to be a bounding box problem, but merely a clipping issue:
#34
I'd like to know if we could have stencil-buffer shadows in a future release, They look cool and I can't be bothered adding them myself ;)
08/08/2006 (8:02 pm)
That's just the terrain lightmap, the shadow isn't being cast by the interior well. Oblivion has this problem iirc.I'd like to know if we could have stencil-buffer shadows in a future release, They look cool and I can't be bothered adding them myself ;)
#35
Couple of questions:
1) Will static dts shapes, vehicles etc still cast shadows from the bounding box?
2) Are there plans for some form of depth light or precomputed shadow maps?
I want to be able to have a model of a tree, with an alpha channel for the leafs, and be able to render an accurate shadow from that which will also affect the player.
Mincetro, stencil shadows are cool but beware, you have no room for error in creating your 3D content!
From what John wrote above I doubt there would be a stencil shadow solution in TSE. It seems GG are using methods for lighting & shadowing which are less accurate but much less demanding on your system. That's a good thing in my opinion.
08/09/2006 (12:38 am)
Thanks for that explanation John, sounds very promising.Couple of questions:
1) Will static dts shapes, vehicles etc still cast shadows from the bounding box?
2) Are there plans for some form of depth light or precomputed shadow maps?
I want to be able to have a model of a tree, with an alpha channel for the leafs, and be able to render an accurate shadow from that which will also affect the player.
Mincetro, stencil shadows are cool but beware, you have no room for error in creating your 3D content!
From what John wrote above I doubt there would be a stencil shadow solution in TSE. It seems GG are using methods for lighting & shadowing which are less accurate but much less demanding on your system. That's a good thing in my opinion.
#36
That's an error in the projection of the shadowmap. The stair intersects with it and thus what you see in the screenshot appears. I'm not sure if it's specific to the technique or if John has something in the works that might fix it.
I do agree with Tim. Better to keep it performant with shadowmaps that look a little less sharp. Will be cool to see what Synapse Gaming has in store for us. :) Clipping errors or not.
08/09/2006 (1:07 am)
@Jaimi:That's an error in the projection of the shadowmap. The stair intersects with it and thus what you see in the screenshot appears. I'm not sure if it's specific to the technique or if John has something in the works that might fix it.
I do agree with Tim. Better to keep it performant with shadowmaps that look a little less sharp. Will be cool to see what Synapse Gaming has in store for us. :) Clipping errors or not.
#37
I thought only statics cast shadows from the bounding box and not vehicles or other shapebased derived objects...if I understand your question #1 correctly. But mesh based shadows on statics and transparent texture shadows cast onto the player or other objects would be a really cool thing, especially if they were dynamic in relation to the orginating texture.
The shadow is based on the mesh of the vehicle, not the bounding box.
BTW, John...great news!!!
08/09/2006 (1:31 am)
@Tim (& John)I thought only statics cast shadows from the bounding box and not vehicles or other shapebased derived objects...if I understand your question #1 correctly. But mesh based shadows on statics and transparent texture shadows cast onto the player or other objects would be a really cool thing, especially if they were dynamic in relation to the orginating texture.
The shadow is based on the mesh of the vehicle, not the bounding box.
BTW, John...great news!!!
#38
I agree, shadows from the mesh for static shapes would be great. Also, uniform lighting and shadows for all objects, dts, dif, terrains etc is a must for me. I find it hard to achieve a balance in TGE TLK between all the shadow / object types. Scenes just don't look right with light affecting different objects differently and each of those objects casting a different quality / type of shadow.
08/09/2006 (8:04 am)
My vehicles cast shadows from the bounding box! Thanks for the pic Alan, I will have to dig deeper and see what I'm doing wrong. Are you sure that shadow isn't the result of some source code modification Alan? I know MI is pretty far from stock.I agree, shadows from the mesh for static shapes would be great. Also, uniform lighting and shadows for all objects, dts, dif, terrains etc is a must for me. I find it hard to achieve a balance in TGE TLK between all the shadow / object types. Scenes just don't look right with light affecting different objects differently and each of those objects casting a different quality / type of shadow.
#39
Many current games also do this, it occurs when combining static lighting and dynamic shadows (of any type) - the shadows need to avoid passing through walls or shadowing already shadowed areas, the clipping minimizes that. In an ideal world the light map detail of the object receiving the shadow would be high enough that they blend together. Stencil shadows would pass directly through obstructions, but through walls too.
Dynamic shadows always use the object mesh as the source, it sounds like something bad is going on in your DTS. The static shadows are currently based on the collision boxes (like TLK), though not for long. As you can see from the Constructor lighting system (also developed by Synapse Gaming), we're moving towards mesh-based static shadows:
The shadow mapping technique we developed could easily transition into a full shadow mapped dynamic lighting solution, because it originally started that way and was ported back to the current object based design.
There are several problems with that though. The clipping only goes away when using fully dynamic lights (ie: no mixing of light mapping and dynamic shadows), which is extremely expensive. You need to minimize the number of lights in the scene (because of performance), creating a very dark and unrealistic scene (very much like Doom3/Quake4). You'll need to work on the scene graph a bit to render per-light as apposed to per-object.
I haven't had the trouble you mention with getting objects to illuminate the same with TLK (at least not to that extent) - even when creating the Shaman demo. Are you using a heavily modified TLK?
08/09/2006 (8:45 am)
Like I mentioned above, that clipping still happens and is designed to prevent shadows from passing through walls. You can easily modify the shadow projector to avoid the clipping though.Many current games also do this, it occurs when combining static lighting and dynamic shadows (of any type) - the shadows need to avoid passing through walls or shadowing already shadowed areas, the clipping minimizes that. In an ideal world the light map detail of the object receiving the shadow would be high enough that they blend together. Stencil shadows would pass directly through obstructions, but through walls too.
Dynamic shadows always use the object mesh as the source, it sounds like something bad is going on in your DTS. The static shadows are currently based on the collision boxes (like TLK), though not for long. As you can see from the Constructor lighting system (also developed by Synapse Gaming), we're moving towards mesh-based static shadows:
The shadow mapping technique we developed could easily transition into a full shadow mapped dynamic lighting solution, because it originally started that way and was ported back to the current object based design.
There are several problems with that though. The clipping only goes away when using fully dynamic lights (ie: no mixing of light mapping and dynamic shadows), which is extremely expensive. You need to minimize the number of lights in the scene (because of performance), creating a very dark and unrealistic scene (very much like Doom3/Quake4). You'll need to work on the scene graph a bit to render per-light as apposed to per-object.
I haven't had the trouble you mention with getting objects to illuminate the same with TLK (at least not to that extent) - even when creating the Shaman demo. Are you using a heavily modified TLK?
#40
My motto, "Change it until it compiles".
BTW, that screen light source is the Sun only, if that makes any difference.
08/09/2006 (8:53 am)
Not as far as I know, Tim. I'm the only coder and if it was because of a source mod it was an accident on my part...although now that's distinct possibility because I haven't a clue what I'm doing half the time. =PMy motto, "Change it until it compiles".
BTW, that screen light source is the Sun only, if that makes any difference.
Torque Owner Sebastian Potter
What does the TLK integration with TSE mean for DIF shadows as opposed to DTS? Are we going to see dynamic shadowing of static geometry on Atlas terrain? If so, I'm quite likely to commit to making the switch to TSE. (Actually I'm pretty much ready to just make the jump on the strength of this announcement alone :)