Your thoughts on recent Torque reviews

#61 I think Torque is awsome.

I'm really having a hard time finding one thing I dislike about it.

#62 The bottom line is that there isn't a piece of software on the market that everyone is pleased with, otherwise there wouldn't be dozens of word processors, spreadsheet apps, database systems, and almost 400 game engines on the market.

Huge posts like these with these heated debates make no sense to me, because 1) who cares, and 2) who cares? Does someone know for a fact that CryEngine is better than TGE if he hasn't use the CryEngine? Well, let's see, do I know for a fact that a Lamborghini Gallardo is a better car (feature and speed wise) than my Hyundai if I've never driven a Lamborghini Gallardo? Why yes, I think I do. But again, who cares.

TGE, TSE, and TGB are great engines at a great price. GG has known for some time that documentation has been a problem and have been addressing that issue. I keep hearing arguments about whether it's possible to make a AAA game with any of them, but how many of us, right here right now, are ACTUALLY GOING TO MAKE A "AAA" GAME WITH ANYTHING??

Blow the reviews. Download the demo for Torque and a hundred other engines and pick the one that works for you. Period. If you don't think any of them are up to your standards, write your own. No one piece of software on the planet is perfect, people, and no game engine will let you push the magic 'make my game' button for anything I'd call a real game.

I can see debating the pros and cons of an engine constructively, I look for such debates for information, but this is just a contest of wills now. I've seen quite a few names in this thread that I know are productive game dev people who have better things to do with their time. TGE is great for it's intended audience and purpose, as TSE will be, and I can't say enough about TGB. Is there better. Yup. For $100, I don't think so.

Have I got a AAA title out there that gives me the right to an opinion on this? No, but I see this kind of thread on so many forums it bothers me here. No matter what anyone says, this community gives a LOT back to the members. Let's move on to bigger, better things...

#63 These types of debates are useless and highly opinionated. It's like a bunch of little kids saying arguing over which toy is better, only the toys cost hundreds of dollars.

If you are gonna choose an engine, I think you should just do this:

1.As the lead designer of your game, unbiasedly write down all the features you want.
2.Talk with your team about all the features they want and write those down.
3.Now use a website like Devmaster.net that lays out all the engines and all their features to round it down to the 5 that come the closest to what is on your list((completely ignoring reviews so that you will have an unbiased opinion)
4.Download the demos of each of your top 5 and really dig into them.
5.Check out the community(communties are an important thing, so don't forget about them!).
6.Sit down with your team and round it down to 2.
7.Hold a vote for which one of the 2 to choose, or just choose.

Now you have your engine.

-Okashira

#64 In my opinion, someone needs to make a Torque Single Player game engine.

Do that... and Torque will own the indie game world.

#65 I think being challenged is neccessary and good.

If you are right, you know it all the more.

If you are wrong, you know it now, and you get change for the better.

It's win/win.

Being afraid of challenge is foolish.

Refusing a challenge is a sign that you just don't want to to change for the better.

#66 @Okashira

I would suggest a few more . . .

8. Once an engine has been selected, forget about all other engines until your project is done.
9. Once the project is completed with that engine, have team members do an engine postmortem and discuss the results together.
10. Start over at step #1 for your next game.

Torque can do amazing things if we really set ourselves to the task. Unfortunately, sometimes it seems that too many people are too busy looking for greener pastures and never getting anything done.

Just what it seems like anyway

#67 Okashira, for the most part, this thread is not clueless kids spouting off about shit they don't have a clue about, so maybe you should think a bit more before posting...
As for having a lead designer decide what is the tech that should be used, in most times (as in 95%, or more), he's among the least person qualified to make such a decision, or even talk about tech features needed : that's why you have technical directors, lead progammers, tech lead artists, etc, e.g to make nonsensical (hopefully..) decisions on such topics.
It's definitely NOT the job of the lead designer to do so ( in general ) or the Artistic Director, or producers to do so, even though the latter tend to end up having the final word...
And no, those types of debates are not useless or childish (at least, in the sense that quite a few posts in this thread go way beyond fanboyism, in case you haven't noticed), if you start comparing price/quality ratios, and henceforth what the savings might allow you to do with a full source tech base that comes in a price tag a few orders of magnitude below other offering, and you know what you're talking about....
I don't think TGE or TSE or TGB is the ultimate piece of technology out there : as I've said many times throughout the last few years, it's got its warts, idiosyncracies (DMM Fix anyone ? ;)), but overall, it's a great technological foundation to build a game on, be it casual, budget, A, AA, or AAA....
And just in case you might wonder about the experience backing my opinion, my last mainstream studio job was to do camera system work on a AAA xbox 360 title, and that work was instrumental (with the stellar art job) in getting the contract from Vivendi) : I don't know everything, I'm not a fanboy of any tech/OS/hw platform, but I've some real world experience, like quite a few people in this thread....
It's the second time in a week you come in with statements about people being children, in case you hadn't noticed.
I won't repeat my initial answer...
Cheers, look forward to see you making a great game with TGE/TSE/TGB or any other sort of tech, whatever you choose

#68 @Joe Maruschak: I'd like to apologize for my comments directed toward you, I meant no disrespect. I think we were both responding to some posters that were making blanket statements and unfortunately stooped to their level. I agree with your points and looking back I can see where you are coming from. It is only when you fight fire with fire do you create a flame-war and I'd like to put that out now. We are generally seeing eye-to-eye on the issue, however it is easy to misinterpret things on a forum, especially when strong language is used. I hope you understand I am sincerely sorry for any offense I caused you and don't wish to hold any personal vendettas.

To get back on the topic, I agree that next-gen graphics aren't a prerequisite to a best-selling game, but they certainly don't hurt either. One amazing example of this is how the NintendoDS continues to outsell the PSP even though it is years behind in the technology department. I expect we will see a similar situation when the Wii is released later this year. In terms of PC games, technology has always fueled the market and I don't see that changing any time soon. Big budget, high-end games like Half Life 2 and DOOM3 are always the ones that get the most press and the most sales, whether theyre good games or not is another question. This is especially evident in how the gaming press has responded to many of the first generation xbox360 games. In all cases, except for a few knock-outs like Fight Night 3, the reviews gave the games mediocre ratings based on the fact that the graphics weren't as big of a leap as they had hoped. As unfair as this may be, this is the market we are dealing with and it would be naive to believe otherwise. Though some gems do break out the mold and achieve massive success without all the bells and whistles, it is becoming increasingly harder for the small-time players. Hopefully we will see a change in this with Nintendo's effort to broaden the market and how Microsoft is handling the XboxLiveArcade, but I'm not holding my breath.

#69

Quote:As unfair as this may be, this is the market we are dealing with and it would be naive to believe otherwise.

The market who is dealing with? What games do you have for sale in this market? Which market? Huh?

As for reviews, we received a relatively horrible review in PC Gamer magazine a couple months ago... The review was bad. The free advertising was great. Guess which I care about more as a fulltime indie developer? All reviews are good reviews...

#70 I think that all of this right here is a clear case example as to why the "Big Dogs" charge such a high price for their engines: they don't want to have to deal with all this crap. Period.

#71 Lol, amen to that!

#72

Quote:The market who is dealing with? What games do you have for sale in this market? Which market? Huh?

I was using the collective term "we" to refer to indie developers in general. The point of the statement was that it is becoming harder for small independent teams to compete with games like Gears of War on the Xbox360 which uses an engine that costs close to a million dollars to license. The fact that you, yourself, recieved one of these so-called "bad" reviews actually just proves my point.

Honestly I don't need to offer you my credentials. But just so you know, I have worked on professional titles in the web-games market. Here is just one of the games I coded:
Cartoon Network: The Batman

#73 I didn't ask for any credentials... I did ask for clarification on what market you're speaking of...also, if you had any games in that market. Those are pretty standard questions for holding a discussion. I am still confused on what the point you are making is supposed to be? Yes, an indie company with a very finite team and budget is going to have a hard time competing with millions of dollars in development and advertising dollars... That's why you zig instead of zag.

I would venture that most successful indie developers wouldn't put "Gears of War" and their products in the same market. I would also guess that they don't see this as some kind of failing on their part. I know we don't...

We have a niche game, the reviewer from PC Gamer wasn't even remotely in that niche, we also don't pay PC Gamer any money in advertising dollars, so the review wasn't good... The important thing is that we were in a mainstream magazine and received additional exposure... We've had good reviews and bad reviews... sure, the good reviews are better to get, but what really matters to our sales is the exposure, that's it.

#74

Quote:Big budget, high-end games like Half Life 2 and DOOM3 are always the ones that get the most press and the most sales, whether theyre good games or not is another question.

the most press, yes.. the most sales.. questionable. Look at the link I posted a while ago. Half Life2 is number 11 on the best PC selling games of all time, Doom3 is absent, and the UT series of games, while on the list, are near the bottom of the list. And this is the main point I am trying to get through. Good graphics, while they help, don't guarentee a great selling game. Even with big retail titles, the uber graphics that everyone is saying matter so much don't seem to matter when you actually look at the sales numbers.

The fact that the titles that you see all over the PC magazines that use Doom or Unreal tech does not mean that they are the best sellers. It is marketing hype, and the hype does not relect where people are actually spending their $$$.

Would you be surprised if you knew that Rollercoaster Tycoon has sold more untis than Half Life 2? What about the Sims sales being nearly 16 times the sales of Unreal Tournament?

It would not be wise to gauge a potential market on marketing created perceptions of what the retail indsutry does.

Of particular importance to indie developers, who hopefully are exploting the niches that are underserved by the retail industry, it is a good thing. It tells me that if a good title can successfully exploit a niche, it can do so well and not have to worry about needing super graphics tech.

Why do I think this? I think this because big retail titles don't need to pony up with big graphics tech. Reading the magazines you think they would.. looking at the sales numbers tells a different story.

I would not keep on harping on this if I did not think it was important to have this information out there.

#75 I'll just toss in my two cents here, not to attempt to continue a flame war but to provide the "one man band indie developer" viewpoint...

TGE is perfect for me. I'm not trying to make a leading-edge game because I don't have venture funding, or a team of artists, and/or a team of programmers. I'm not shooting for high-end graphics hardware because that's not my target market - it's the casual gamer, children/young folks, people at home that don't have $300+ to spend on a graphics card (which is stupid expensive IMNSHO anyway).

If anyone picks up TGE thinking that it's going to be good for making DOOM 4 or such, then I think they needed to do more research. That's like saying you're going to grab the Conitec engine and outdo UT2K4. Not very likely.

It's about "fitness for purpose" and for me TGE is fine. The community has plenty of info on it even though it might not be as active as some might like. There are third-party books out there to help with the learning curve. You don't *have* to hack the engine to make something playable and enjoyable.

As to reviewing the reviews: like has been said before in this thead, caveat reader! The Internet makes it possible for any gene-damaged troll to post anywhere, at anytime, and most of them take advantage of that. I'm sure someone will consider me a troll as well (lol)!

I'm plenty happy with TGE.

#76

Quote:It's about "fitness for purpose" and for me TGE is fine

Quote:You don't *have* to hack the engine to make something playable and enjoyable.

I think you said it perfect. If you want to make a game with TGE functionality out of the box, or even with better lights with TLK, then you can make a fantastic game with TGE and you can make it fast and fun.

I agree with Joe's statement(i'd be stupid not to of course) about SIMs and the big FPS game sales. SIMs is kicking the fuck out of all other PC games PERIOD. SIMs are ussually 3-5 of the top ten best selling PC games every damn week. That's right... 3 to 5 of the top 10 games are ussually SIMs games. Next are the Blizzard games. Neither of those game series are next gen graphics.

Of course, they have something indies don't have... a huge ass built in player audience. But, you know, that took em a decade to cultivate. And I can see that graphics are the draw to grab the attention of players out there to give your game a try. And that does work. But it's not really a good strategy if you consider the ratio of success/failure for games that do that. And I think that if you can make top notch quality graphics, even if they aren't cutting edge, that it just makes more sense than rolling the dice that cutting edge graphics will be worth the price to make.

#77 At the risk of turning this thread back to where it began, I'd like to point out a suspicious coincidence of timing. I can't help but wonder if the recent rash of bad reviews may be in some way linked to this rather amusing thread on the Unity forum beginning Jun 29:

Quote:Help us: vote for Unity at DevMaster.com (forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=2233)

This one was posted on Jul 25 as a follow up:

Quote:
Help us vote for Unity On Devmaster (Relighting the fire) (forum.unity3d.com/viewtopic.php?t=2439)

Its just possilbe that some enterprising souls may have taken it upon themselves to do a little extra to make Unity come out on top. They got to #4 but are #5 as I write. Unity looks like a great product, but it is Mac only. If they want to be number 1 legitimately, the way is clear...

IMO the GG community has no equal. Those who don't belong to it see only the public forums, which in no way reflect what is going on behind closed doors.

#78 I had to laugh when I saw this. Sure enough, the quote that Mark found the most amusing:

Quote:The one that cracked me up the most was this:

Quote:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Don't waste your money or Time
Posted by: at Jul 19, 2006
I had this engine, and I'm a C++ Programmer and I thought it sucked. The features are outdated and the support from the people is not their.( Though the community support is dead!!!) The learning curve is really high and the tools and stability is low.
Bottom Line

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

was indeed posted by the same person who posted this Unity review:

Quote:
Great Engine
Posted by: Blue_Fox at Jul 19, 2006
The engine is a great engine with almost all the features and support of a next-gen engine, but at a indie price. I loved the demo so much that I went out and bought it the next day. It didn't let me down and has been a great investment. It could use some easier networking though. Anyway asume engine!!! Great support!!!!

To top it off, the reviewer gave TGE a total of 1 star (for features) and gave Unity 5 stars in every category (for a total of 20 stars.)

And still Torque is the top of the list. I guess there is either no justice, or some justice, depending on how you look at it.

#79 I'm inclined to think, though, that this guy should probably be reported to the staff at devmaster.

Although it might be worth looking to see if he hammered anyone else's engine too... a single instance might not be enough to be considered evidence.

#80 Devmaster is a good and reliable website and people shouldnt corrupt it with lies like these. they have no need to.