Danger of not having a degree
by Pat Wilson · in General Discussion · 04/11/2001 (10:42 am) · 56 replies
What is the danger of not having a college degree in the industry. I hear a lot of propaganda saying if you don't have one it's:
1) A danger to job security.
2) A turn off for companies.
3) A pay knock down
So far, I've been nothing but frusturated with college, and after talking (and working) with 4th and 5th students I haven't seen anything impressive as far as projects, job offers or their skill in programing.
From what I can see, the only thing that a college education means is you have the mental endurance to put up with innaine classes, incompetent professors, antiquated methods and dorm life.
I'd be interested in what others think about this topic.
1) A danger to job security.
2) A turn off for companies.
3) A pay knock down
So far, I've been nothing but frusturated with college, and after talking (and working) with 4th and 5th students I haven't seen anything impressive as far as projects, job offers or their skill in programing.
From what I can see, the only thing that a college education means is you have the mental endurance to put up with innaine classes, incompetent professors, antiquated methods and dorm life.
I'd be interested in what others think about this topic.
About the author
#22
05/30/2001 (8:57 am)
I don't know if this was mentioned. I have read that it is very important to submit a demo or something of substance when appying for a job game developing. There is a game developer in my area that has thier requirements for all jobs to have a bachelors in CS and a GPA of 3.5 and above. I'm holding at about a 3.6 , I'm sure I will choke before I'm done. :-D They are very into highly educated people. It was started by 2 brothers that 1 went to Harvard business and the other to a well established engineering school in the area. It seems they are looking to get either a really smart kid out of college or a industry veteran. I live near Albany NY. Not exactly Silicone Valley. IMO they are being to restrictive in their employment. On the other hand they welcome demo's and stuff so I don't know :) . 
#23
Firstly, a degree is not important if you can get your foot in the door. Experience is far more valuable than a degree is. I develop business applications, from simple two-tier stuff to multitier solutions... and I have no degree. I started writing SQL and generating reports from a CRM back-end, moved on to small db applications, and eventually on to full-bore MTS/COM+ multitiered stuff. A good boss who lets you grow professionally is quite a nice thing to have. :-)
That is not to say you should ignore the pursuit of a degree. You can generally command a larger income if you have one - heck, even having an MCSD will get you a few extra Ks. This is why I started going to uni even AFTER I've been in the industry for several years.
If you are presently pursuing a degree, stick it out. It IS worth it - it makes getting your foot in the door much, much easier (that is, barring chance opportunities). Plus you'll have a well rounded education, and hopefully a better math skillset than Joe Blow who's just out of high school. This will make you a more profound contributer to your team, regardless of industry.
I'm only 19, but I have all the motivation, experience, income and technological know-how that I need to succeed in life. For me, getting a degree is just a matter of personal preference and not a necessity.
05/30/2001 (10:37 am)
Call me lazy, but I'm not going to read this whole thread. I'll just add my comment to the pile. :-)Firstly, a degree is not important if you can get your foot in the door. Experience is far more valuable than a degree is. I develop business applications, from simple two-tier stuff to multitier solutions... and I have no degree. I started writing SQL and generating reports from a CRM back-end, moved on to small db applications, and eventually on to full-bore MTS/COM+ multitiered stuff. A good boss who lets you grow professionally is quite a nice thing to have. :-)
That is not to say you should ignore the pursuit of a degree. You can generally command a larger income if you have one - heck, even having an MCSD will get you a few extra Ks. This is why I started going to uni even AFTER I've been in the industry for several years.
If you are presently pursuing a degree, stick it out. It IS worth it - it makes getting your foot in the door much, much easier (that is, barring chance opportunities). Plus you'll have a well rounded education, and hopefully a better math skillset than Joe Blow who's just out of high school. This will make you a more profound contributer to your team, regardless of industry.
I'm only 19, but I have all the motivation, experience, income and technological know-how that I need to succeed in life. For me, getting a degree is just a matter of personal preference and not a necessity.
#24
But given the choice, uni or experience and I will take experience any day of the week.
Owen
07/12/2001 (4:59 pm)
Just to throw in my 0.02. I worked as a freelance ASP developer for a number of web companies, I am now a uni, enjoying the life, the degree is IMHO an added novelty, but a lot of companies tried to take me on full time and pursuade me out of uni because of my experience, many felt uni was a waste of time because after 4/5 years of experience in HTML design, project management and Database programming, most companies felt I was qualified for the job, however those companies are the new breed of companies, not old established ones. Also I know most of my course is BS but it is teaching me how to work through stuff that I hit that I'm not naturally good at, or have little interest in (as when you're working you sometimes hit these things [read: a lot] and uni/college teaches you to handle these a little bit better). But given the choice, uni or experience and I will take experience any day of the week.
Owen
#25
07/17/2001 (10:14 am)
i graduated from a well known university in computer science. all i can say is that i covered many advance topics and without that challenge, i would have no idea on algorithms and data structures. without that challenge you most likely will learn the skills you need to get by but your creative programming skills would be very limited. 
#26
07/17/2001 (11:27 am)
lol...I tend to find that lack of knowledge makes me more creative in finding a solution...
#28
harharhar
07/17/2001 (9:54 pm)
how can you find a creative solution if your confined to cout statements? or how can you improve fps if you havent taken your college algebra? harharhar
#29
Unless you are applying for a job at auran , then you will need all sorts of useless degrees :P
Caliban
07/17/2001 (11:45 pm)
I think you will find that if you can do the work, youll have a job. In Australia it goes purely on your work abilitiy and talent. Who cares what a piece of paper sais, after all the final result is what you can produce.Unless you are applying for a job at auran , then you will need all sorts of useless degrees :P
Caliban
#30
It could come down to the fact that the company will hire someone with a degree over someone who doesn't because of Managerial practices, they want to be certain about who they are hiring, or even that they like to hire graduates from said school.
The question to you is do you want to take the risk of being passed over for a job? This isn't the same industry it was three years ago, there are literally thousands of people who can do this type of work in the marketplace today, so are you willing to overlook and ignore something that could help give you the slight edge over the competition?
Logan
07/18/2001 (7:06 am)
A degree or certification gets your foot in the door with your resume (which is especially useful when you do not have 3+ years of industry experiance).It could come down to the fact that the company will hire someone with a degree over someone who doesn't because of Managerial practices, they want to be certain about who they are hiring, or even that they like to hire graduates from said school.
The question to you is do you want to take the risk of being passed over for a job? This isn't the same industry it was three years ago, there are literally thousands of people who can do this type of work in the marketplace today, so are you willing to overlook and ignore something that could help give you the slight edge over the competition?
Logan
#31
Ryan J. Parker
rjp@awingsoftware.com
07/18/2001 (8:13 am)
I have found that sometimes you won't get hired without a degree. It has nothing to do with your experience level, or how much you know. You could be the smartest/brightest/etc. and still not get hired if you don't "have enough checks in the boxes". Just depends on the company/industry.Ryan J. Parker
rjp@awingsoftware.com
#32
It is pretty ignorant to think that you have to attend college to learn anything beyond cout or that you can only learn algebra in college (and yes I do have a Bachelors of Science in Computer Engineering and I was taking Masters level calculus before I finished). My point was that when you haven't had the formal training you haven't been trained to think like your professors. Since you don't know the "right" way to do it, you are free to come up with a different approach that might even be better than the accepted "right" way. A lot of the best ideas and inventions in our history were made in this way. It's true that sometmes you will end up reinventing the wheel (so to speak) but usually this means you will understand it better than someone who was shown how to do it and didn't have to figure it out on their own.
Whether or not a degree matters depends a large part on the industry you are in and the jobs you are applying for. In the game development industry I think you'll find that experience counts for more (Tim Sweeney once told me he could care less what degrees and honors you had, show him something cool and if Epic liked it they would hire you). However, even in the games industry and a lot more outside of the games indsutry if you don't have that degree, then they won't even read the rest of your resume.
I am in the unique position of having a degree but not having one in the field I am interested in (programming- I only had 2 intro level classes on programming). My degree is largely useless to me but I do see 3 reasons to have a degree:
1) It is hard to teach yourself what you don't know you are supposed to learn. A lot of times you will think you have a good handle on the subject until someone comes along and points out something you didn't even knew existed.
2) The time you spend at college can be very useful for building up other skills. When you are working 8-5 every day you don't have nearly as much time to work on learning other skills.
3) Get's your foot in the door with some jobs.
Edit: I know I repeated some of my earlier posts but a lot people won't read everything in a long thread like this one.
07/18/2001 (9:05 am)
Quote:
how can you find a creative solution if your confined to cout statements? or how can you improve fps if you havent taken your college algebra?
It is pretty ignorant to think that you have to attend college to learn anything beyond cout or that you can only learn algebra in college (and yes I do have a Bachelors of Science in Computer Engineering and I was taking Masters level calculus before I finished). My point was that when you haven't had the formal training you haven't been trained to think like your professors. Since you don't know the "right" way to do it, you are free to come up with a different approach that might even be better than the accepted "right" way. A lot of the best ideas and inventions in our history were made in this way. It's true that sometmes you will end up reinventing the wheel (so to speak) but usually this means you will understand it better than someone who was shown how to do it and didn't have to figure it out on their own.
Whether or not a degree matters depends a large part on the industry you are in and the jobs you are applying for. In the game development industry I think you'll find that experience counts for more (Tim Sweeney once told me he could care less what degrees and honors you had, show him something cool and if Epic liked it they would hire you). However, even in the games industry and a lot more outside of the games indsutry if you don't have that degree, then they won't even read the rest of your resume.
I am in the unique position of having a degree but not having one in the field I am interested in (programming- I only had 2 intro level classes on programming). My degree is largely useless to me but I do see 3 reasons to have a degree:
1) It is hard to teach yourself what you don't know you are supposed to learn. A lot of times you will think you have a good handle on the subject until someone comes along and points out something you didn't even knew existed.
2) The time you spend at college can be very useful for building up other skills. When you are working 8-5 every day you don't have nearly as much time to work on learning other skills.
3) Get's your foot in the door with some jobs.
Edit: I know I repeated some of my earlier posts but a lot people won't read everything in a long thread like this one.
#33
What you know IS all that matters - it doesnt matter a pigs ass how you learnt it - motivation/knowledge/ability/communication skills - if you have these you WILL succeed - regardless of how you aquired those skills.
and BTW - in the art field a degree doesnt seem to be worth s**t - I have done a degree - and have never once been asked - people see my portfolio and CV - talk to me about my outlook/attitude - then either higher me or not.
07/27/2001 (3:12 am)
oh for craps sake - all the people that have done degrees feel supirior to those that havent - and all the people who havent done degrees feel threatened by those that have.What you know IS all that matters - it doesnt matter a pigs ass how you learnt it - motivation/knowledge/ability/communication skills - if you have these you WILL succeed - regardless of how you aquired those skills.
and BTW - in the art field a degree doesnt seem to be worth s**t - I have done a degree - and have never once been asked - people see my portfolio and CV - talk to me about my outlook/attitude - then either higher me or not.
#34
Personally, I favour people with degrees when I'm interviewing, because it shows that a candidate can finish what she starts. I do NOT demand a computer-related degree. My advice to folks these days is this: No matter what you major in, you're going to end up working in computers, anyway, so you might as well major in something that intrigues and inspires you. Too many people in my computer science classes seemed like they were cardboard cutouts. Don't be those guys. The best game developers are well-rounded! Learn some classics. Learn about the human condition. We weren't hatched out of the world yesterday; there is a context and a history which made us into what we are today, and an appreciation of that will help us better understand how to create great works instead of pop trash.
07/30/2001 (5:31 am)
I have worked places (outside of gamedev) that hired mostly people with higher degrees, and I was low girl on the totem pole with my measly Bachelors, I kid you not. College is far from dead. Besides, college is a nice, safe haven to hang out while the economy is slumping and the gamedev industry is particularly volatile. You can sit back and work on your killer demo while the chaos settles out, on the outside.Personally, I favour people with degrees when I'm interviewing, because it shows that a candidate can finish what she starts. I do NOT demand a computer-related degree. My advice to folks these days is this: No matter what you major in, you're going to end up working in computers, anyway, so you might as well major in something that intrigues and inspires you. Too many people in my computer science classes seemed like they were cardboard cutouts. Don't be those guys. The best game developers are well-rounded! Learn some classics. Learn about the human condition. We weren't hatched out of the world yesterday; there is a context and a history which made us into what we are today, and an appreciation of that will help us better understand how to create great works instead of pop trash.
#35
07/30/2001 (8:45 am)
I believe that you do not necessarily need a degree. Well, unless it's for a doctor or something. Now I do think though that person without the degree better be able to prove it and almost be able to do it better. I have seen this before. You can list all your skills and say 'I can do this and I can do that'. Whatever. The proof is in the pudding. So they say.
#36
When I got out of high school I was too much of an immature jerk to get a job better than pizza delivery (A pretty fun job I might add...) and I wanted to play football (replace football with music, art, theatre, or any other activity you might like that it is hard to make a living at). Plus it was just assumed that if you wanted to do anything with your life you went to college. So I did.
It was awesome! I was in an environment where I got to learn anything I wanted to, and not only that, if the shool didn't have the information I needed, they would get it. I also had the opportunity to become better at the guitar through school sponsered lessons, to learn how to dance at lu'au's, read some of the most amazing books I have ever read, became an artist, had a reletively innocent good time, and dated some girls. Also, I got to go to the National Championship in football my senior year!
So I guess my reccomendation is this. If you are going to college to get an amazing job, you probably will have to go for a long time and go into a field that requires the degree, like law, or medecine, or even some grant based lifestyles in science and history. Or if you want to be a teacher, college is a must. But if you are like me, just go because when you get done you will be more mature, have had more life experiences, will have worked under pressure, and will have to opportunity to learn whatever you want, and have people that will help you learn this stuff.
Oh, and I majored in fine arts. I was a painter.
08/03/2001 (8:50 am)
Well, I guess I should add my 2 cents to this. I went to a small private school here in Oregon (Willamette University to any who care) and I have to say that it was some of the best years of my life. I learned a lot and had access to anything I wanted to learn about. I guess my attitude was this: When I got out of high school I was too much of an immature jerk to get a job better than pizza delivery (A pretty fun job I might add...) and I wanted to play football (replace football with music, art, theatre, or any other activity you might like that it is hard to make a living at). Plus it was just assumed that if you wanted to do anything with your life you went to college. So I did.
It was awesome! I was in an environment where I got to learn anything I wanted to, and not only that, if the shool didn't have the information I needed, they would get it. I also had the opportunity to become better at the guitar through school sponsered lessons, to learn how to dance at lu'au's, read some of the most amazing books I have ever read, became an artist, had a reletively innocent good time, and dated some girls. Also, I got to go to the National Championship in football my senior year!
So I guess my reccomendation is this. If you are going to college to get an amazing job, you probably will have to go for a long time and go into a field that requires the degree, like law, or medecine, or even some grant based lifestyles in science and history. Or if you want to be a teacher, college is a must. But if you are like me, just go because when you get done you will be more mature, have had more life experiences, will have worked under pressure, and will have to opportunity to learn whatever you want, and have people that will help you learn this stuff.
Oh, and I majored in fine arts. I was a painter.
#37
since you are new to computer science you most likely didn't take your design and analysis of algorithms or your theory. its very difficult for one to develop breaking edge algorithms and artificial intelligence without the formal education. the comp sci degree and masters in comp sci will provide the student with the foundation to develop new technologies and prove their concepts most efficiently as possible. its extremely rare to see someone without the education to develop an advance game. look at black and white for example. the person who is responsible for the AI worked at oxford and worked on many research topics in AI. now your telling me that the non college kid can be just as smart at AI as the guy with the formal education? the possibility is slim. name a couple people that work on creating the next generation game engines, AI, algorithms, etc..i know there must be some, but im sure that the people on top will always be the ones with the advance comp sci degrees. just imagine if all the people with phd's in comp sci got together to create a game. just think of mr.miyagi and karate kid. karate kid learned foundation before he fought, not the other way around. later dude haha
08/04/2001 (11:57 pm)
"My point was that when you haven't had the formal training you haven't been trained to think like your professors."since you are new to computer science you most likely didn't take your design and analysis of algorithms or your theory. its very difficult for one to develop breaking edge algorithms and artificial intelligence without the formal education. the comp sci degree and masters in comp sci will provide the student with the foundation to develop new technologies and prove their concepts most efficiently as possible. its extremely rare to see someone without the education to develop an advance game. look at black and white for example. the person who is responsible for the AI worked at oxford and worked on many research topics in AI. now your telling me that the non college kid can be just as smart at AI as the guy with the formal education? the possibility is slim. name a couple people that work on creating the next generation game engines, AI, algorithms, etc..i know there must be some, but im sure that the people on top will always be the ones with the advance comp sci degrees. just imagine if all the people with phd's in comp sci got together to create a game. just think of mr.miyagi and karate kid. karate kid learned foundation before he fought, not the other way around. later dude haha
#38
Many of the leading game programmers in the industry don't have Computer Science degrees much less "advance comp sci degrees". As someone mentioned above, John Carmack doesn't have a degree at all. Check out the bios of the programmers of your favorite game development team...
I've been programming for the last 13 years...how about you?
It would probably be the most technically correct and least fun game ever made =)
I quite agree! You must have a solid foundation if you are going to be successful. However, a Computer Science Degree isn't the only place you can learn the fundamentals nor is it always the best place to learn them.
08/05/2001 (1:20 am)
Quote:
Like Yoda said, "Already know you, that which you need." While a university degree is useful, there is nothing you can't learn on your own given sufficient effort and motivation. Largely, it comes down to really hard work. I've spent the majority of my waking hours for the majority of my life programming and striving to learn new things, and there have been times when that's just been barely enough to avoid disasters.
- Tim Sweeney
Quote:
my degree is in Mechanical Engineering, and it has been very useful, far more useful than computer science.
-Tim Sweeney
Many of the leading game programmers in the industry don't have Computer Science degrees much less "advance comp sci degrees". As someone mentioned above, John Carmack doesn't have a degree at all. Check out the bios of the programmers of your favorite game development team...
Quote:
since you are new to computer science you most likely didn't take your design and analysis of algorithms or your theory.
I've been programming for the last 13 years...how about you?
Quote:
just imagine if all the people with phd's in comp sci got together to create a game.
It would probably be the most technically correct and least fun game ever made =)
Quote:
just think of mr.miyagi and karate kid. karate kid learned foundation before he fought, not the other way around.
I quite agree! You must have a solid foundation if you are going to be successful. However, a Computer Science Degree isn't the only place you can learn the fundamentals nor is it always the best place to learn them.
#39
"John Carmack doesn't have a degree at all. "
are you saying that everyone can be a john carmack then. not really. if that was the case, i would choose to be bill gates. hehe
" I've been programming for the last 13 years...how about you?"
the car mechanic at jiffy lube who changes oil for 13 years will never know as much as the college graduate engineer who built the car. do you get what im saying? lol
"It would probably be the most technically correct and least fun game ever made =)"
but it would give the game designers one hell of an engine.
08/05/2001 (5:20 pm)
just how many of "matt damons in good will hunting" are there? hehe"John Carmack doesn't have a degree at all. "
are you saying that everyone can be a john carmack then. not really. if that was the case, i would choose to be bill gates. hehe
" I've been programming for the last 13 years...how about you?"
the car mechanic at jiffy lube who changes oil for 13 years will never know as much as the college graduate engineer who built the car. do you get what im saying? lol
"It would probably be the most technically correct and least fun game ever made =)"
but it would give the game designers one hell of an engine.
#40
If you actually did some research into the industry (which I have), I think you would find that only about 60% of game programmers have a Computer Science degree and only about 15% of those have a Masters in Computer Science or higher. A Computer Science degree does not automatically make you the better game programmer. Motivation and hard work make you the better game programmer. A Computer Science degree is only a small part of the many paths to becoming a great game programmer. It is arrogance and ignorance of the highest order to believe otherwise.
08/06/2001 (8:42 am)
Enoz, this will be my last post on this subject because I have made my position very clear and I'm tired of being insulted by someone as ignorant and inexperienced as you.If you actually did some research into the industry (which I have), I think you would find that only about 60% of game programmers have a Computer Science degree and only about 15% of those have a Masters in Computer Science or higher. A Computer Science degree does not automatically make you the better game programmer. Motivation and hard work make you the better game programmer. A Computer Science degree is only a small part of the many paths to becoming a great game programmer. It is arrogance and ignorance of the highest order to believe otherwise.
Etienne Jabbour