Second thoughts about Torque..

#1 Well, first of all, Tribes 2 was made with Torque and I believe Tribes Vengeance was too. Both great games. Second of all, most people that are using Torque, from what I know, use it as a learning experience. I am working on a project myself right now and it can be very tough at times by yourself. Just check the help wanted ads and look how many people need to grow their team.

#2 Well i suppose if you're talking about a proper game, you're probably referring to a game with a massive budget.

Most teams with a massive budget are probably using this on "better" engines then torque.

Plus you need to factor in the amount of time it takes to make a proper game. it's years, not months. So any proper games being made with torque are probably not done yet. I've seen lots of impressive games in the making, and there's some games already made, like Minions of Mirth.

So what are your "second thoughts" about torque? are you thinking of switching engines?

#3 We're making what you are asking about, and with no budget

Some video from our upcoming alpha tech release

files.filefront.com/StarSiege2845+ATR+Wraith+Testing/;5165665;;/fileinfo.html

#4 Illumina is in closed beta and Legends seems to be progressing steadily.

I don't know of any completed FPS games, but Minions of Mirth and The Elixir are finished and available to the public, and both of these games are more complex than a simple FPS.

Most - if not all - game engines suffer from a lack of completed games, as most people do not realise how much time, effort and skill is required to create a modern game and/or set their sights too high for their first attempt.

#5

Quote:but what i mean is a game with a character with legs and arms, with a weapon that shoots proper,

I still find it funny how people equate characters with legs and arms and shoot things as proper games...

Does that mean that myst is not "proper" because you don't shoot things... or you don't get to see your arms or legs?

Does that mean that Incredible Machine is not "proper" because you do not play a character with arms and legs?

Does that mean Will Wright's upcoming game spore is not "proper" unless the person playing their game makes their creature into something that walks around with arms and legs and shoots things?

Does that mean that any racing game is not "proper" because you're not a human/biped creature?

Does that mean puzzle games are not "proper" because you're not in 3 dimensions?

Does that mean that the computer version of settlers of catan is not "proper" cause its not really a computer game?

Does that mean that games like Galactic Civilization II and Dawinia are not "proper" cause they don't look like FarCry? (Which by the way, both of these games are selling off the charts... Way to go Brad and Stardock for GalCiv2.)

What about Civilization-style games? What about Guitar Hero? (though, the way people act in the office when they lose a head-to-head match... maybe people are shooting their opponents.) What about MUDs? What about text-based strategy games? Or even the best selling game in Europe Football Manager... There's almost no graphics in that one.

Most people want to make their own games? To see their own dreams come to life on the PC. And many times, that's not an FPS. Why put limitations on yourself as a developer by classifying "proper" games as ones with characters that have arms and feet and shoot things. Why not put the bar at "fun". How much fun is it to play this game? Do I have so much fun that I want my friends to play this game as well? Do my friends and I have fun playing the game? If that is you're criteria for making a game. You will be successful. People everywhere want to play fun games.... and that's not just FPS games.

But back to the point... if you want to make an FPS... more power to you. Go for it. The only things stopping you is you. That's right... the only thing standing in the way of developers completing their games many times are the developers themselves. But don't let that discourage you... if you have the patience, the time, the energy, the skills, the team, the creativity, then you can create the game you desire. Go for it.

#6 I think it is mainly the people. For each their own reasons of not finishing a project. We are a two person team making a game in our spare time. We might get two to ten hours work done on our game in a week. Then some weeks we don't get any done. We have been working on our game well over a year and it still has along ways to go. But this is also our first game like many others. I personally would not use any other engine.

Quote:Well, first of all, Tribes 2 was made with Torque and I believe Tribes Vengeance was too.

Tribes Vengeance was not made with Torque.

#7 Tribes Vengeance was made with the UnrealEngine.

As for your question;

I think there are many games out there that are progressing, but alot of them do not show progress or you just haven't noticed them. Most of us are indie teams and we are progressing slowly, if we're working on such projects as the ones you describe.

I'm pretty sure there soon will be some nice FPS games made with Torque tech, they just ain't public yet.

#8 The Torque commercial license doesn't obligue you to splatter the GG or Torque logo on the game, and neither licences ask you to announce your game on these forums or talk about then in your .plan.

Actually, non-indie developers usually work under NDAs with publishers, and can't go bragging about their games until they're told to. There is probably a bunch of Torque-based games out there going under the radar. Just because they didn't made it into IGN it doesn't mean they doesn't exist.

What's the point of an Unreal Tournament clone that looks worse, sounds worse and has less levels? Most indies and start ups know this and instead focus their resources in other kinds of games, where their strenghts (creativity, imagination, and on indies' case, freedom) can outweight their weakness (small teams, small budget and sometimes inexperience). Thus most stay away from games requiring lots of cinematics, voice active and artwork.

So, the "upcoming AI pack" is not the solution for this, since there's nothing wrong with Torque. It's just that most people who go after Torque probably doesn't have the major budget to make commercially viable FPS games.

Also, there are a few small Torque FPS'es out there, most being prototypes or first-try projects. They're usually for fun and free. After all, since the engine comes pre-packed with a FPS demo, there's no fun in making a FPS game. That'd be cheap ;)

#9 I know for myself, it's a lot of work for a team consisting of me, my son and a couple of his friends to make a lot of progress fast. Code Name: Monster Island is a FPS shooter, and doesn't introduce anything too revolutionary, but to get something that we can be proud of is a lot of work. We aquired TGE in Dec. 2004 and have been working at it since but it is not realistic to expect incredible progress in 18 months with a few guys part time.

To get a sense of what's involved, Valve had 40+ full time employees plus something like 15-20 contract workers working on HL2 and that project took seven years and millions of dollars. I've commited a lot of my life in those eighteen months to CN:MI, but I've got to be realistic, I have to look for a nitch, I've got to know what the end results I want are and realize that I'm just one guy. Most the the teams here are small, the fact that a lot of games aren't appearing doesn't suprise me in the least. The fact that some good ones have and others are making progress does.

- Alan
Really Really Good Things Studio

#10 Put it this way
I am jumping from Torque to 3DGS and viceversa
I know I make a mistake , better to stick to one of them
However they are the only engines which , a part from commercial games such as Triibe, have been used by indie programmers to develop professional like games
What you are saying is valid for other engines \ comunities which look at Torque \ 3dgs top_down but as a matter of fact they can not show up even one decent game
Not to mention the C++, direct x and opengl l purist

#11 Wow guy i wasn't expecting so many answers so soon....thanks
And so much misunderstanding, that is so funny. I feel like I made angry some people. Sorry for that.

First of all you have to realize how difficult is for a non English speaker to post something in a forum like that. Like every other time I wrote that post and I meant something else. I can never explain exactly what is in my head because I have to see first what English phrases are available for me at the time....anyway. For those who don't understand that, well try to learn a new language for a change and go post in a France forum or something...

Back to our point. To make a bit more sense, I'll change the line "proper game" with "single player FPS", because I was referring to FPS ONLY and SINGLE PLAYER ONLY. That is why I mentioned the AI pack too because I was asking for SP. That does not mean that the only "proper" games I like are FPS ones which according to someone around here it meant games with players with arms and legs that shoot. You need lots of imagination for that Bravo btw. I meant Completed Single player games, cause all I see are MP's or MMORPGs. By the way Congratulations to the Minions of Mirth guys, very impressive work and so more complex than an Fps , yeah i totally agree. Sorry, it was my mistake really because of my bad English.

As for Benjamin Bradley, calm down friend you took it too far I think. According to your post you must have way to much free time to write things like that or you are an angry personality or something. Sorry if I offended you in any way. You completely misunderstood my post. I looked at your profile and I have to say that we could be very good friends under other circumstances. By the way thanks for your little lecture about how games are fun and what it means and which is the right direction. Anyway allow me to know a few things about the games industry and what the term "game" and "fun" means and how many "proper" games are out there, since I am a professional in the games industry for some years now, officially in one (between the 3) of the most successful game studios of the world. . If someone's profile is empty it doesn't mean they are 8 years old.
As for Myst and the whole series, they are master pieces and some of my favorite games ever. I have even personally contacted through work to one of the Myst/Riven creators to congratulate him for the games in person

What i meant really is since there is a pre-packed FPS demo starter for Torque and it would obviously be the easiest way to go at first, how come none has made a complete good looking and good playing SINGLE PLAYER FPS game that makes Garage Games so proud of it. And don't tell me that it's because "there's no fun in making a FPS game cause that'd be cheap" and so obviously easy like Manoel Neto said before in his post. Because if that is the reason none has made a Single player FPS then you all should be very proud, that is the lamest excuse ever. That is why i am asking that whole post in the first place. Is it because everyone needs so badly the AI pack? Is the upcoming AI pack the only solution for single player games?

That is all guys

I believe my question is answered in some weird way.
Thanks again for the advice.

#12 I respect your candor, Exones. And from my perspective,you are a keen observer; silence[or speaking UP] does not mean inexperience, lack of creativity, flailing drive...or perhaps that you aren't 'cut-out' for game development[to begin with]...;). Heard that somewhere before, thought I'd repeat it; para-phrased/truncated/whatever...

And I greatly admire any non-English speaking individual on this planet who takes the time and effort to learn a new language/culture, not of their birth[but is mine]. I studied Latin for a number of years and can 'somewhat' understand a few Romance Languages, and in the early 90's, I spent some time[let's just say, more than a 'standard' vacation, ain't workVisas cool?, Phil C.??] in Japan; where I was immersed in the culture 24 hrs. a day. This necessitated forcing myself to begin to understand the language to function on a basic level, so I know exactly how hard it is to communicate across verbage & cultural barriers. Keep it up, I think you did a very good job at expressing yourself and your written English; very good.

In the end, Exones, I think you'll find an army waiting to 'step-up' to defend the software, no matter what is the right/wrong perspective....

I 'think' the bottom line[in my humble opinion] why you don't see more completed games[FPS] with the stock SDK; is that, as an artist who evaluates the engine, you'll find that you can create the art for TGE very, very easily[I've done it with 3 modeling programs to date: yeah: PLAYERS/HUMANS/BIPEDS], however; getting the art to do anything meaningful takes a lot of scripting from a coder[manipulating playThread/actionThread animations a PRIME example]...those individuals are hard to find, on a per project basis. For example; I was an Artist on a Team that had a Project Lead/Coder who wanted to do all sorts of functionality that wasn't included with the SDK. Instead of learning how the engine functioned on a base level[and how to leverage it to our best advantage), the 'orders' were to begin 'pumping' out finished assets. LOL......needless to say; with each passing month of rescoping and functionality non-generation, I knew the affair was doomed to non-completion. Why; certainly not because of art asset creation; moreso a lack of gamePlay coding that never materialized....We did manage to Totally Convet Unreal Tournament v436...so, ah...ah, drive and creativity are firmly in place.

This is sort of a Post Mortem for the Project, but I think a good 'overview' to answering your original question about 'proper' FPS projects...

Good luck.
Rex

oh, btw[hope this translates well], Fifteen minutes in the Sunshine[insert Fame/Noteriety/Adulations here] is a very short time......The 'Wheel in the Sky' definitely turns at it's own pace!

Another example of why it's hard as an artist with the stock SDK: Footstep sounds on MaterialPropertyMapping. This, to me, is a very exciting functionality and a 'basic' one for the FPS to help with immersion...and why, oh why; is there not an example of this in the example Mission??????? Hello, hello, tap:tap; is this thing on?? I have never been able to get this working correctly[only ONE and the First Texture Slot to boot, none other], without finding someone to compile the 'fix' for it. Now, why this doesn't work out of box[does it with v1.4??? tutorial please, official, would be nice], I have no idea. Usually the 'answer' you recieve: "you have the Source...DIY!" Now, as an artist, I find that 'answer' very limiting and condescending[very much so]...and why this doesn't work, "out of box"????? I best be careful with my examples, one of the troops will jump out of a foxhole and begin to explain how 'easy' it is to 'fix' this issue....NOT to an artist; is this EASY....;) Please don't tell me there isn't 'enough' time or artists at the 'factory' to produce 3 separate sounds for ground textures and demonstrate it working...!!!

Notice how much energy is being put into the TGB...;), making it vastly easier for 2D stuf to get firmly in place...why doesn't this translate over to the CORE product that launched it all?? Could it be saturation point of TGE Indy license sales??

#13 My own thoughts on this..

personally, I have worked on an FPS and have no desire to work on another one soon (either in art style or game play). most of the more experienced developers here (who have worked in the industry) are here because they wanted to do something different. For me, if I wanted to work on an FPS, I can go work at one of the big shops and do so.

we also often advise new teams not to start an FPS because they have a tendency to become horribly out of scope,

AND

in such a competative market as the FPS genre, it is not a good idea to go up against the 'big boys' head to head. You need to find a niche to exploit if you want to get any sales.

I think many teams start working on FPS games that they think will be the next big thing, and that after a few months of development, they realize just how big an undertaking it is, and lose steam.

Tablua Digita is working on a very cool looking math based 'shooter' (teaching kids how to use math)

they found a niche.. and I think they will have success there.

the more experienced teams are already aware that the FPS genre is a risky area, and that they have a tendency to be large, and are steering away from them.

and then there is the content limitation. Making a single player game takes a lot of content, and this both costs money and makes for a big download (which can hinder distribution efforts)

AND

there is the problem of coming up with a good single player FPS game. I have not really played a good FPS in a long time.. HL2 I found dissappointing.. not as good as the original, and not much has come down the pipe in a while that I found compelling, from anyone, either indie or funded publisher. this of course, is a reflection of what I like in games.

so, I think it is a lot of subtle things that lead to this and not one big reason, and I don't think it is a limiation of the engine at all ( the engine was originally used for an FPS after all).

#14 @ Joe: try Call of Cthulhu....as a FPS. Very similar; very different.

CofC, is much better than HL2, although HL2:Episode 1 is much better product.

#15 @Rex
Dark Corners of the Earth has some major issues in its action-oriented segments; primarily that they are linear in their exactitude without any lead-up to prepare players for game-over after game-over. The Inn Escape was one of the most frustrating, idiotic, and inspired moments in a FPS that I've played. Frustrating because the jump control was crappy and until that point never had to be used to get a feel for its shoddy timing, meaning many falls between buildings during the escape. Plus, the trigger efficiency between aiming the camera to let the engine determine whether you were locking the door or opening it (to let the intending murderers in for a quick game-over) was really, really bad. Idiotic in that missing one step in the "turn and lock the door and then push something in front of it" mentality meant nearly instant death, again in a point where none had existed before. The only way to die before that was by accident...and I am not sure you could actually die before that moment. But it was also inspired because it had some great tension in that scene when initially figuring out what to do. Unfortunately, the segment was so long with only a single way to progress that it required trial-and-error gameplay to figure out the order of things you had to do to stop your attackers. It was something that I had wanted to see in a game in a while, a good chase scene, but it lost any effectiveness by the second room through repetition of learning or irritating triggering.

I enjoyed the game for the most part, but I found the action sequences to be extremely irritating. I prefer to use Thief, Echo Night, and Hell Night (which had its own annoyances) as examples of niche first-person games.

#16 Yes, I agree, a most intense sequence that was. I kinda figured something like that in store, which is why I entered the second room and pre-locked the hall door, ;), before choosing the sequence starting point. Saving the woman[or not...] is another tense one, haven't played to the end yet.... Having read all of Lovecraft's work, especially that sequence, captured the 'feel' of the experience and keeping that in mind, I suspended enough disbelief to overcome some of the 'mechanics' of the experience. Not knowing what was actually going to happen next[in the big scope of things-mapSpecific flow notwithstanding], made the game 'experience' a much richer one for me than yet another weapon/reticule affair of non-stop firing/collecting. To me, it was something a bit 'different' than the norm. I'm also slightly embarrassed to admit I actually enjoyed Unreal II quite a bit, boring ship sequences notwithstanding...;). I think the biggest draw[for me] about HL 1 was that I had no idea what was happening or why...

But to remain on the topic asked of why you don't see more from the stockSDK[which seemed to be the 'thrust' of the Thread], the reasons I presented are valid, I feel.

I do enjoy working with tge[learning should never cease in one's lifetime], as I also enjoy driving my truck or steering my RC boats I built from blueprints...just a little distracting from all the fun, when ya gotta stop and figure out why they ain't working like they could.

Cheers!

PS: how many Save/Death attempts to cross HL2's zombie and sludge filled parking structure did it take you?? lol. I got so tired of leapFroggin that I charged right thru and let the suit take the 'heat'...lol, talk about linear.

#17 Torque has the potential for great things like all major engines like Dark Basic, Blitz 3D, Truevision, but it comes down to that hard work and some people drift off, as I have from Dark Basic and others just don't put the full potential as they could to making that game awesome, when I was working with Dark Basic I had the knowledge and ability to make a quality Role Playing Game, I got it started, but it didn't get far, rather than it being difficult to, but once you consider peoples lives and their own way, you may find that people are unable due to that, I mean when I was working on my RPG my life was the major 'get in the way' thing, exams, studying, friends, reading, martial arts, reading and writing (looking for a career in literature and writing) which is why torque attracted, it cuts out all of the stuff I don't need to worry coding, like collision, interface positions of objects, lighting etc. and have less coding to do.

Besides, there are well made projects out there, okay they may not be up to the standards of Tribes, but not every Torque project can be found on the Torque website, I'm sure there are awesome projects we've never heard of developed in it. I myself hope to get a good third person shooter out of it and possibly the RPG I started in Dark Basic (although I still am working on bits of it in DB anyway) but I am not good enough yet, I am at the stage where I am making a treasure hunting game ;)

#18 Dark Horizons: LORE ??

#19 I hated that part of HL2, though I did the run-and-gun the first time since that's usually how I play most FPS's unless it doesn't seem to be working all the time. Sadly, 99% of the time it does work. It makes sense if it is like Serious Sam and supposed to be a run and gun, but it is irritating if it is supposed to be a "thinking" FPS and it still works. Or if single-player team-play ends up being glorified escourt missions for your "team". I did not find it as linear as DCotE simply because DCotE took the "do this sequence of things exactly" mentality to an extreme. In an adventure game, it (sometimes) makes sense, but in an action sequence, it was frustrating. But I did just hit on what I felt were negatives. It did so many first-person adventure aspects SO RIGHT. It felt like the good parts of The Suffering, Echo Night, and Eternal Darkness in the first person.

One of the difficulties with making a single-player FPS in TGE is that it is inherently networked. This is not that difficult to overcome (I know since 99% of my desired games and prototypes have been single-player), but it can be very confusing to someone who is new to a large codebase, new artflow, and a few hundred caveats that come with learning any new engine from the ground up (caveats seems to be my word of the day). What is more daunting is that certain "common requirements" of FPS's such as moving platforms are not as easily integrated (or stock) as expected. Suddenly creating the single-player FPS opus becomes difficult.

This is not necessarily a problem with the engine, though it may sound as if I am making it out that way. It is a problem with expectation. If we take Blitz3D, we see a number of excellent screenshots from small teams that have good artists and programmers. We get excited. We buy it....and then we realize that Blitz3D is a programming language and that the cool 3D shooter we were seeing is really a combination of programming prowess and artistic talent; just like any engine's successful screenshot. A6, C4, Beyond Virtual, Unity, etc have this problem as well. They are all very nice engines, but it really comes down to the teams working with the engine. Right now I wouldn't work with C4 because I don't need it's advanced rendering features at the cost of limiting potential audience to only new hardware. It is not that "C4 sux" or something. It's a great engine with wonderfully clean syntax and excellent documentation, but it matches a target that I don't have right now. It matches others' targets, though, and does it well.

Sadly, it comes down to an unanswerable question about targets. Why aren't there single-player FPS demos/games for TGE? Well, perhaps the answer is that the people who are actively making games aren't concentrating on the single-player FPS market. And since networking is one of TGE's strengths, it doesn't make as much sense for GG to work on a comprehensive single-player demo.

Why do the vast majority of projects on (insert game engine's site) never make it to completion? Because of the team, not the tech. Dark Basic has great tech. TGC have made some great contracts and handshake agreements. But they can only go so far. They make First-Person Shooter Creator, which is good at what it does: being an easy-to-use FPS development suite with base features. They even did one better by releasing the source code for it to the community, and yet the vast majority are waiting for the few to work on the features (save/load, for example) which are using the source. That was the reason that the BeyondVirtual team ended up going closed-source and working with contract or special developers: there were very few who picked up the source and did something else with it.

But it all comes down to expectations. Take [the] GG [forums] for example, since I come here quite often. The constant line is that there is a resource for x feature or "here is my best guess of where it would be in the source to modify". I'm horribly guilty of this. A simple perusal of my post history will show 96% of my posts have either this or completely irrelevant information. But to someone who comes here ,downloads the demo and hears "oh, it's easy to add this resource" with little to no programming experience, it sounds as if TGE is easy to use. Blitz and DarkBASIC fall into this trap as well, and since they are languages, are often quite a shock to people who are starting out.

Actually, now that I think about it, maybe I should turn this into a development community blog since I think I took your topic, had my way with it, and left it crumpled in the corner of a dollar-by-hour hotel room. I seem to do that a lot.

EDIT: Added []'s to emphasize the GG forums versus GG themselves.

#20 Its 100 bucks for the Indie license. Why think twice?

If you want to make a high quality commercial game, get ready to spend more than 100 bucks.

This is a starting point. Torque can be profitable, Torque has proven to be profitable, it IS pofitable.