MS4 within a few months

#41 At least it's getting more friendly in here again.

While i do see what you're trying to say about the lack of CVS updates and the bad PR(especially concerning the post about MS3 and Legions in a different board)
But as it had been pointed out all ready, because the nature of the thread/post on the Tribal War forums was more about Legions and it's possbility as a game, not MS3 and TSE really, it was overall more fitting to put it there.
It indeed would have been nice to have had Mr. Aste toss a follow up thread or a link or something, but sometimes that slips one's mind(i do that alot really >_>)
It's obvious that GG's working on TSE, even you agree with this, but doing nothing but complaining about it doesnt help.
What'd be better is to point this out in a civil manner(how you're doing that now, later in the thread; which is much more appreciated) and try to get GG to alleviate this problem once the GDC rush is over and they get back to work.
Besides, cant always expect good PR from a bunch of coders and artists, now can you XD(to all other coders and artists, please dont beat me :p)

David: dont be silly, dinosaurs are last weeks D-Day and Hoth. We never want them again. Ever. What'd be cool is a zombie game, in the mid-west, with aliens and thier technology in a top-down role-playing, tactical/realtime shoot-em-up.
Now THAT's a real game.
Pft, dinosaurs :p

#42 Bowing out of the thread since it -does- seem back on a more civil track. There is nothing wrong at all with stating your points and thoughts--just please stay away (and I mean everyone!) from direct attacks on each other--that's all I ask!

#43 Just wanted to jump in and say that MS3 is by no means a trivial update. While it is true there are no wiz-bang features, Brian spent a good chunk of time working on Marble Blast Ultra instead of TSE trunk. The result was not that MS3 features weren't getting worked on, but they were getting worked on in the MBU branch. Since we got back on track we've put in some massive performance enhancements into TSE that we gleaned from MBU work.

I think that the critisism for us taking so long is valid, however it is totally wrong to say nothing has been going on in the TSE world. Also, the reason for the CVS/SVN is that we can now break things to do them in new ways, then re integrate them for a release so people don't get all their previous work stomped.

#44 See post below. I poste twice by mistake

#45 @Pat, Stephen and other GG

1. There is no doubt that you loose licensees and potential buyers because you dont *seem* to work on TSE. It's already took you too much time

2. In the eyes of some of your customers, this equivalets with 0 work on TSE ? Why ? Because it;s a fact that not too much stuff went in last months in public CVS. Those guys dont have access to your internal CVS. So whatever you did there, even if you invested a lot of coding in TSE means 0 for them. So dont be surprised.

3. Also, a part of your licensees, while they apreciate the cool games you made, such as MBU, which is trully a fun game, they dont apreciate that all eforts go in MBU or TGE, while , again, no apparent progress is made on TSE. I am fully aware that you worked a lot on TSE while doing MBU, but then again, refere to point 2. The outside impression is that you took the money of ppl and delivered but delays in exchange.

4. GG is a public relations fiasco. I never seen anyone having such bad PR with its licensees as GG. Starting with your delays, the "when is done" policy, and other things. It would cost you so little to organize yourself a bit inside GG and have short, periodic, informations on those TSE private forums, about what you did in private CVS, that you estimate a merge in the next 2 months or one year, and so on. It takes so little to keep ppl happy, if you know how to doit. And maybe try to invest just a little more time on TSE.

5. Is a fact that you are lossing money (possible future licensees) and current cutomers because all this. While it might seem not important to you (as quantity), this phenomenon got bigger in 2006. Loosing a licensee today, is a lost future cutomer, which one day would give you more money, maybe for a TSE related tool, maybe for a upgrade to TSE commercial. Loosing a potential customer is again unpleasent. Add to this the bad publicity all of those ppl do, both to GG as a company, and to the engines sold by GG. Many of those ppl do not keep an open mind, to praise your products as I do while they "bash" the company. When they turn, they turn completly 180

6. A big pool of your licensees, are so worshiping GG , that they spread missinformation. Missinformation regarding the technology in TSE and who built it. Those ppl beleive that

A. Chunk LOD is creation of GG
B. Generating shaders from metadescriptions is GG invented and you used it first time.
C. You can anything with current shader model in GG. Even implement lighting whithout support from scene graph , and whithout some advanced "light culling" techniques , which will ensure performance stay high

You will forgive me if I straght the record clear. It;s the only decent thing to do. And its the right thing.
While it would be beneficial for some GG sales that ppl beleive that all those things where done by GG research, this aint true, and I prefere GG to boost its sales by holding a tighter relationship with it;'s licensees, and boost it;s TSE deliver pipeline a bit.


Funny thing is, the TSE source code states Atlas have protion from original implementator of Chunk LOD, in every file realted to Atlas. So, GG coders acknoedged this. But those fanatics , which preted themselves such "god like coders", and all boosted their profile on this baord to "goodlike programming skills", are not even reading the source code of TSE. But they dare to talk. Gimme a break =) This category cant read code, thats why they dont even know GG aknowledged T. Ulrich in the very source of TSE.

Of course I dont expect those ppl to recognize .tqt extensions, if they cat read black on white.

They also know shit about 3D graphic programings, and shader or OpenGl or DirectX, or else they would know much more about when some techniques where invented, researched, that they where previously used. They would also know why you had the batching problems you had, and the potential solotions to this.
They would also know the bad performance of current TSE head in some situations, should they use it :P They would also know that effient dynamic lighting covers an extremly wide field of techniques, and requires suport from other parts of engine as well, such as scene graph, to have acceptable performance. However, some of they think that throwin dynamic lighting in TSE is a very simple matter of wrrting a new shader and colelcting some lights. They dont even know that those shaders should act slightly different for a paralell light and a spot ligt. But hey, they put "advanced code" in their GG profile.



7. GG seems to have acquired a band of loyal followers, wich is very good. Some of them are even smart and capable, On the other hand, you have a commando of zelaots and fanatics, which will jump to the roof
everytime somone say something wrong about GG. They spill out all the usual bullshit: look, how cool,
"TSE supports PS 3.0", "TSE is already 100% bug free", "TSE is the parramount of technology and all is invented by GG" Many of those ppl have no iddea how things do work in 3D graphics , they cant evaluate to real capabilites of a 3D engine, some cant even code. They are quite a funny bunch, should they not use words like "morron" and "laws against stupidity"

Even if we are a minor branch of TSe licensee which dont blindly follow the GG gospel, and we dont worrship
it's CEO, they have no rights to attack one member or a minority of licensees. While my posts are tough and on the edge , they do not attack ppl untill I . or the minority I represent , are bashed. This is something modertors of this board should take in cosideration

8. In all I say there is nothing presonal against GG employees and their abilites. I critcise GG as a corporate entity and it;s politics, and by no means individual persons from whithin GG, especially it;s programmers.

8. If you give more info to "Associates" then it;s a mistake. They dont payed you more than the rest of us.
Or if you give more info to them, ask them to diligentlly and correctly diseminate it in the comunity. But again, you should not do this, because they aint paying more than the reso of us for the product.

#46 @jeff

>>Besides, cant always expect good PR from a bunch of coders and artists, now can you XD(to all other coders >>and artists, please dont beat me :p)

Very true. But you expect decent PR from a company. GG is more than coders. GG should revise it;s PR policy as I said in my previous post. It;s for their own good, I think. it would only take them 10 minutes at 2 weeks to have a great and clean relationship with it;s licesses, should they really want to improve on this.

#47 @Dan Partelly,

I have been apart of this community for 3 years and I haven't met any zealots who are long term community members. The zealots tend to be people who are new to the community. It's pretty hard to be a zealot after a few years of indie game development in this community. Zealots are ussually people who don't really know what they are doing or saying. That's why they tend to be new people in the community. Not all of them, but most of all of them.

It is difficult to say this without sounding harsh. But, you really don't know what you are talking about. I'm not saying that you don't have good points and valid critisism. You do. But you are talking as though this community and Garage Games as a company exist in some kind of ideal world. Not only is this not an ideal world but if it were an ideal world then there would be no Garage Games to begin with. This is a crucial point and the reason why people are so defensive. Let me explain.

The game industry is FUCKED UP. Garage Games the company and the community exist because hope against hope they are trying to fight the tide and make a better world for game developers. They are nearly a charity. Hell, they are a charity.

That is why they get so much understanding from the community, because we are like orphans being given a home and a hope and a chance for a life we could only dream about. But Garage Games isn't Daddy Warbucks. Garage Games is the older brother who has volunteered to take guardianship of his younger siblings while he's struggling to live his own life and he gives up his own future to give a future to his family.

Now, when you walk into this home and you see that it is kind of messy and that the kids don't have everything you think kids should have and you judge the brother and then shockingly the kids get pissed at you for it... it's because they know the love and sacrifice of the older brother and that you have no right to judge him. When someone accuses Garage Games of pocketing $100... it's like accusing the older brother of taking care of the kids so he could have food stamp money. It's utterly rediculous and insulting.

This love that the community has is not zealousness. This community is a family of orphans and Garage Games is the older brother. That IS the way it REALLY is. Now, go ahead and tell the older brother to sacrifice more than he already is and materialise money out of nowhere to pay for something more. It is simply NOT going to happen.

You did not buy a piece of software from some money grubbing corporation. You did not buy it from some slick get rich company. You did not buy it from some company on the verge of bancrupcy who is trying to stay afloat. That would be the normal game industry. You bought it from the good guys. Yes, yes, it's hard to believe that there are actually good guys out there... but you found them. I've met these guys. I've interviewed with them. I've talked to them face to face and eye to eye and I'm telling you that they are the real thing. I promise you they are.

Are they struggling to balance a million plates at once. Yes.

Do you think that they don't wish it was easier?

Do you think that they haven't thought that if they stopped making tech for the little guys that life would be richer for them?

They do and they have and they are still here.

My mother in law moved in with my wife and I about 6 months ago. She had a brain tumor removed and she was partially paralised. We have been taking care of her since. When she moved in she started paying 1/4 of the rent. That was $170 dollars a month that my wife and I didn't have to pay for rent anymore. Now, if you think that comes close to being worth the time and effort and money that we have spent taking care of her since she moved in. We aren't taking care of her for her contribution to rent. To say that we are... what a statement of immaturity and ignorance. For 5 1/2 months, my wife and I slept on the floor while her mother slept in our bed. Now, the bed we had was a futon and the bars hurt her mother when she slept on the bed. So, why didn't we just go buy a bed? Huh? Why? Because there were other more pressing things to pay for and we didn't have enough money for everything. Finally this last month we bought a bed for her. Do you think that we weren't thinking every night that it would be a good idea to buy a bed? We were.

Garage Games is the same way. Sure, it would be ideal to spend more time and money. Of course they would like to do that. But they aren't a family of 2 and 1/2 children and two incomes. They are an older brother who is sacrificing to help his family. Yes, the older brother is working for his future as well, but it comes one day at a time.

That is what you have to remember about Garage Games and this community when you want to offer suggestions and criticism. I'm telling you so you can maybe be a good guy and join the family. Yeah, the kids at school are going to make fun of you and the fact that you don't have all the latest fads. But you know what you got that they don't have? A HUGE ASS FAMILY that has your back and is rooting for your success in life. And THAT can't be bought with money.

#48

Quote:Is a fact that you are lossing money (possible future licensees) and current cutomers because all this. While it might seem not important to you (as quantity), this phenomenon got bigger in 2006.

This is purely idle curiosity, but do you have links to posts to back that up ?

Quote:If you give more info to "Associates" then it;s a mistake. They dont payed you more than the rest of us.

Sure, they don't pay more then anyone else. However, they do contribute more then most other community members. As just one example from recent memory, TDN would not have anywhere near as much information on it now had it not been populated by GG staff and associates first. Had there been no associates, TDN would either have gone public with barely any information or still be in development now.

Without the associates hammering on tech before it is released publically it would take much longer before things were in a stable and usable state. In fact, some things wouldnt exist at all were it not for associates working as external contractors. Some major things that spring to mind are Unicode support for TGE/TSE/T2D, the Linux port of TGE and Show Tool Pro, and Elixir on TDN.

It is easy to sit on the outside looking in and criticize. However, when you consider a lot of the things that licensees take for granted now would not exist without the associates, we are all a lot better off. Perhaps you would find associates more palatable if you thought of them as private beta testers. All software companies have a pool of private beta testers, but very few are as accessible as GG's associates.

T.

#49 @tom

No I dont have links to back this up. No company payed for a pool to see % and numbers. You can build your own conclusion, if you pay attention to some facts. There are other comanies which sell engines as well. I license more than one engine. It seems to me by listening to some of those ppl on some forums that GG is loosing sales. So for me its a fact. But you can do your own reseach if you really want too.


For the associates postion, again , I maintain my position. If you get more info then the others, or access to code which is not in public CVS, then this is a mistake, and impairs GG standards of equity to its licensees. I payed for the EA, so I demand to have all code shared between licensees at equal times, whithout any favoritism, at the same time. *TIME* is of essence here.

Thanks you guys for your TDN and whatever, new features in engines. Its awesome. However, im only interested to get TSE code at the same time with anyone else , beeit associate or humble member.
Im also not interested in associates accessibility. Its very nice and noble from your part, and I seen ppl there with great knwoledge and which posts accurate things more of the time. Thank you. Im only interested to get the code I payed for at the same time as others. This is why I payed for an EA. If, and only if, you have more code of TSe than other guys here, then again this is a major fuckup of GG , and Ill let ppl know about it.

#50 @Anton

Of course , you have the right ro your oppinion. Im very well aware of all points you made on the gaming industry, what GG does, or they try to do. However, there is a fundamental difference on how the two of us
raport and possition ourselves to those things. I could say you dont have the slightliest ideea what you are talking about, but I wont. I wont because your point of view is a valid one, from your psoition. If I choose to position differently in this equation, my point of view will be totally different, but maybe as valid as yours.

Another difference is that you are cutting GG a lot of slack. I do as well, by defending TGE where ppl bash it whithout any resoning. but while you cut them the slack completly, I am choosing not to do so :P I am the opposition. While you are the democrate, Im the republican :P I like to say what I have to say, and I repet, noone has the right to censor my oppinions.

I also apreciate waht you say about a community, since it shows that you are a good and compasionate person.
But accept that we dont position ourselves in the same position in regard with GG and the comunity itself. I might get there where you are in several years of beeing part of this community. So dont be so sure I have no ideea what Im talking about, its a assumption, and assumptions dont have a place in the mind of a intelligent person as you are.

If GG have problems with money, as you seem to imply , and dont have enough money to finish development of TSE , or doit in a reosnable time frame, they should come clean out and say this to me. Then I would take my hat off before them and congrat them for their efforts so far. But if they dont do this, I dont have any reason to cut them slack. I bought a product which is in development, and I expect 1.0 version in a resonable tiem frame, resonable bug free version, and resonable implementation of features advertised. Im here to get what I payed for, in the condition above, that beeing all the point of getting an EA. And before anybody says
that I dont need to get anything , or 150$ is such a low ammount, please stop. Im not interested 150$ is a low ammount of dollars, is a price which was asked and payed. I am also not interested in what you think I should get for this money. I payed the asked price for an EA, and I am entitled to get the finsihed product when is done. I payed the price today to have the finsihed product tommorow. But not in 2016 as that funny post which was censored with 3D Realms licensing TSE said =)

Also, my psychic build is totally different than yours, so I will never assimilate a company with older brother or my family. Not today, not in 100 years. My thinking processes at this are fundamentaly different than yours, and I am much more pragmatic then you are. My family is extremly important to me, as is for all ppl of latin heritage, but we also keep it in resonable bounds and we will never include a company in it.

So I can join a coomunity and become a "good guy" , as long as ppl accept my very different views. But I will not denounce my views for anyone.


Also, Im very sorry for what happend to your mother in law. Im sorry your family had to go through this. Id wish to say I know how hard it was for you, but I can only imagine all stuff you and your wife went through.

#51

Quote:*TIME* is of essence here.

Is it really? If so, you should probably get working on whatever is so important and stop complaining about the state of TSE. Get started on the game play, art production, GUIs, building structures, ect, ect...


You seem to continue to whine about the state of TSE, you can't get over the fact that it's not finished yet, and you think you have a right to this or that because you paid for the engine.

It's obvious that you didn't actualy read about the product before you bought it, otherwise you would of caught:


This is an early adopter release, available only to TGE licensees. The TSE is not yet complete and major components may change as it gets improved for the final release. It is available for developers who want to get an early jump on shader development. The TSE is not yet the stable platform that the TGE is, but it can still be used for quick and flashy prototypes and other simple projects. Just keep in mind that some features are missing, some are broken, and some will break as development continues on the engine. As long as you are aware of these conditions, jump right in and have fun!

#52 Josh,

The time frame for TSE is already taking too long. It was aknolwedged even by GG staff in this thread. I read that thing , and Im totally agreeing with it.

I dont whine about he status of TSE , Josh. Realize that im doing much more than that, im actually bashing GG with intent and specifically for the timeframes of TSE and their PR stunts and policies.

Whining is something trivial. Im actually attacking their TSE policy and PR ways. Wake up, and accept that I dont agree with what they do.

You say its obvious that I didnt read about the product before i buy. This is again a assumption. Dont make assumptions Josh. It will reflect ngativly on you some day. Be cool , and stay away from assuming. You will be wrong most of the time. Assumption is mother of all fuckups, me dear fellow TSE licensee. And you just fucked-up :P

Dan

#53 And please Josh, dont you dare to esatbilish whats important for me. And dont suggest me what engine to use for development , or when I should start to create my game assets. Go home, and estabilish your own priorites.
Worship TSE if you want and actual CVS head state, and make your assets, but leve me alone from your great plans.

Thanks

#54 Again it was a double post. Weird. My mistake

#55 I was pretty sure that you did read it, I worded it like that to make a point.

And yes, TSE is taking a while, but chances are it will be done long before you can ship a game. You have been complaining about and bashing TSE/GG's practices since November of last year(perhaps ealier). Have you actualy made anything at all since then? You could of had a prototype(depending on your skill), or at least a component of your game working by now.

#56 >> You have been complaining about and bashing TSE/GG's practices since November of last year(perhaps ealier)

Again , so you can understand. What I do is criticizing with intent GG. Im voicing some of ppl in a minority would like to throw to GG in their face, but they dont. November is the time when I bought TSE.
I was suprised to see how little was done acutally. Then today im again surprised how little have been made public, At least GG could make public to us fixes to some bugs and fix for the batches fuck-up.

>> Have you actualy made anything at all since then?

It is not your problem. I hope you realize that

>> You could of had a prototype(depending on your skill)

I complelty agree. However, this doesnt mean I cant continue to post what I beleive on those boards.

Dan

#57 @Dan Partelly

Now we are talking here. :) This is much better.

I want to clarify what I was refering to when I said that you don't know what you are talking about.

Quote:They already have your money, so why should they give you an usable engine in exchange ?

That's what I'm talking about. Thinking that Garage Games doesn't care about anything but the customer's money. Especially thinking that it's even possible that they care about the money from EA indie licensees.

All of the money from all of the indie licensees combined don't amount to enough money to buy a new car. You have to understand that money is a non issue here. I am telling you this because I think that by misunderstanding this that you are really missing out on something special.

I understand and respect your opinions. I am not blowing you off by saying you don't know what you are talking about. But it was the truth in this case. I say 'was' because I explained it to you and now you know. To think that Garage Games cares about the EA money is like saying I cared about the $170 in rent that my mother in law paid. You have to understand that if money were an issue, they wouldn't be selling it at an indie price AT ALL.

I know that you don't see that a company should be treated like a family. But that is the point I am trying to make. Garage Games is a family. It's not just a company. That's what makes them so special.

If someone wants to just show up and buy a $150 early adopter engine license and think that they are entitled to the same kind of benifits that come with a $450,000 completed engine license then they are mistaken. You won't get the same kind of benifits from the EA TSE engine license that you get from the half a million dollar engine licenses. You will get infinitely more benifits from the EA TSE than you ever would from the half a million dollar engine licenses. It's not even a close comparison.

You know... half a million is still a deal for a game engine license compared to paying for one from scratch. Really... do you actually think that making money from the indie license is an issue here for Garage Games.

Keeping business from emotions is fine and dandy. It's your life. But you gotta know that as much as I should respect your opinion that you should understand that Garage Games doesn't play by those rules. That's what being an indie is all about. You are simply going to have to wait until they are done with TSE. Yes, it's not fun to wait. But it's their product and it's their time table. If you can't be gracious to those being gracious to you... expect to be dismissed. You are kinda biting the hand that feeds you.

This is turning into a really great thread.

#58 @Josh

And im not bashing TSE as a product, this is also something you seem to fail to understand. Im bashing the policy of GG and its atitude towards it;s "flagship" product, the TSE EA licensees , and the minority which preferes to know more about the developemnt of the product they payed for.

#59 Hi all,

I've been trying to stay out of this, but (the dreaded "but") I just want to back Dan up a bit. He has a lot of valid points. Yes, he makes them in a way that is going to get people hysterical. But as has been acknowledged above by a few people including GG, he *does* have valid reasons for complaining.

I really think information flow would ease the situation considerably. I recall that way back in the 1980s, people waiting for trains in the UK would be almost on the point of riot because they were so often late. It became a national scandal. A bit of research showed that people just detested being treated like fools, left standing on ice-bound platforms with no information about when the train would arrive, and no apologies from staff.

British rail institued a policy of providing information about delays over the speakers on the platforms. I can't remember the exact figures, but customer satisfaction increased by a staggering amount, something like 80%. The trains were still as late as ever, people still stood around on frozen platofrms, but they now knew what was going on and were no longer being treated like fools.

A weekly or monthly update on progress from GG would cool a lot of tempers I'm sure. It would cost next to nothing. Stick it on TDN so it's easy for a staff member to update and is publicly available. It would take perhaps ten minutes and would only require the discipline to keep it current and make sure it's not forgotten.

The "No dates" policy is also extremely insulting. Yes, I know the reasons. But every software company in the world would love to tell their customers "Get lost we're not giving you a date because we *know* we'll miss it and you'll shout at us." Huh!? Well, pick a date you won't miss. Perhaps make the milestone releases smaller so you can more accurately schedule them. OK, there are many interdependencies, but this is C++ and OO. You should have no problems keeping APIs stable for yourselves/us whilst turning the internals into scrambled eggs. I dunno, I really feel that some attempt at professional scheduling should be made and passed on to the customers.

I could type on and back up Dan's points one by one, but in the end they would all amount to "Give us updates more regularly, but if you can't then at least tell us what you have done so far and what is holding you up." I can't believe that policy would cause you more grief than you get by just keeping silent.

I hope this post is seen in a positive light and not as an attack. I also hope I don't get the usual "read this thread, or that thread, or some comment that was made in this forum two years ago." A simple progress (or lack of progress as it may be) report in one place would be great.

Cheers,

Dave.

#60 @Dan

I would also like to know the progress of TSE. I agree 100% with that. I wish they did give more frequent updates. I particularly am working on a game that would be a much better game with the completed TSE than with TGE due to how the lighting is key to gameplay. Believe me, I wish I knew the progress of TSE and whether or not I could consider it for this game. The game I am working would need TSE with lighting and shadows completed and it would need it within a month. I could sure use knowing when it's coming. But since I don't know... I am not going to lose my cool or professionalism with them. I only do that when I am trying to make retarded jokes. :P That's all I'm saying to you. And thanks for the kind words about my mother in law and my wife and I. She's more than worth the effort. :)