MS4 within a few months
by Nick Daum · in Torque Game Engine Advanced · 03/29/2006 (7:12 pm) · 119 replies
I am not sure if this has been said elsewhere but Tim Aste just posted "As it stands, all the stuff you listed is actually done, and we still have a few months until Milestone 4 will be out."
So I guess MS3 will be a quick one:)
So I guess MS3 will be a quick one:)
#2
03/29/2006 (7:25 pm)
They have been busy getting legions ready and others for GDC and such, I was unable to get them to answer their phone lately to take an order I have been trying to place, so the fact they haven't had time to update TSE owners with new information(or an updated engine) isn't unexpected.
#3
GDC is not an excuse. They never have time for anything TSE related. They already have your money, so why should they give you an usable engine in exchange ?
03/31/2006 (2:19 am)
MS3 a quick one ? After so many months ? And with so many rendering bugs, very low rendering performance in some situations. MS3 is long overdue if GG had any respect for you or your money , but it aint here, since GG donesnt care about his "flagship" product, and about you, it care to take your mooney then make you wait years for changes which can be done in months.GDC is not an excuse. They never have time for anything TSE related. They already have your money, so why should they give you an usable engine in exchange ?
#4
I don't think TSE is as neglected as the RTS kit though, the RTS kit hasn't really been touched since release and has a severe lack of content to it IMHO. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they'll start caring about the RTS kit when TSE is done and port it over to TSE in the process.
TSE is definetely a nice engine, I think that's why most people are impatient with it, like me they just can't wait to get their mits on the finished product ;)
03/31/2006 (3:46 am)
Definetely looking forward to TSE being in a better shape, right now it's a great testbed but little more than that unless you do a fair bit of work on it (as was done for MBU!). I'm glad to hear that it's likely to reach RC1 stage this year, the current rate of publicly visible TSE developments I wasn't expecting it until next year but I guess they've got far more done that they've let loose ;)I don't think TSE is as neglected as the RTS kit though, the RTS kit hasn't really been touched since release and has a severe lack of content to it IMHO. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they'll start caring about the RTS kit when TSE is done and port it over to TSE in the process.
TSE is definetely a nice engine, I think that's why most people are impatient with it, like me they just can't wait to get their mits on the finished product ;)
#5
No. Its because it's development crawls, rather then beeing sustained. A lot of stuff done in TSE could be done in a matter of months rather than years as it seems to take GG. Since they have some good programmers,
the only answer is that they dont care about customers of TSE.
The value of TSE is in TGE. TGE is a mature engine, with TSE beeing nothing by a hacked up , bug ridden, shader powered TGE. And its bug and performance are ignored by GG.
Dont be fooled to beleive that whats new in TSE vs TGE is everything researched and developed at GG. In fact are implementations of already known and proved algorithms , such as ChunkLOD by T. Ulrich for Atlas, run-time shader generators from material descriptions, and a DX9 wrapper (well, that could be written in 2-3 weeks =)) )
Currently shader support is "just hanging there" in engine, without any real integration with scenegraph, and
with no lighting. Im not speaking about dynamic lighting only, even static lighting is even worsst than in TGE.
I heard a lot of bullshit from some ppl on those forums that evrything in TSE is borederline technology, awesome and never heard before in a game engine. Guess what is not true :P The technology on which Atlas is based is public domain since 2002, run time shader generation from material descriptions is also as old as 2002, in fact is nothing new, even Quake 3 generated shading by issueing fixed function pipeline commands
based on
Starting with a full blown engine TGE, is really weird how much time it takes them.
03/31/2006 (6:13 am)
>> I think that's why most people are impatient with itNo. Its because it's development crawls, rather then beeing sustained. A lot of stuff done in TSE could be done in a matter of months rather than years as it seems to take GG. Since they have some good programmers,
the only answer is that they dont care about customers of TSE.
The value of TSE is in TGE. TGE is a mature engine, with TSE beeing nothing by a hacked up , bug ridden, shader powered TGE. And its bug and performance are ignored by GG.
Dont be fooled to beleive that whats new in TSE vs TGE is everything researched and developed at GG. In fact are implementations of already known and proved algorithms , such as ChunkLOD by T. Ulrich for Atlas, run-time shader generators from material descriptions, and a DX9 wrapper (well, that could be written in 2-3 weeks =)) )
Currently shader support is "just hanging there" in engine, without any real integration with scenegraph, and
with no lighting. Im not speaking about dynamic lighting only, even static lighting is even worsst than in TGE.
I heard a lot of bullshit from some ppl on those forums that evrything in TSE is borederline technology, awesome and never heard before in a game engine. Guess what is not true :P The technology on which Atlas is based is public domain since 2002, run time shader generation from material descriptions is also as old as 2002, in fact is nothing new, even Quake 3 generated shading by issueing fixed function pipeline commands
based on
Starting with a full blown engine TGE, is really weird how much time it takes them.
#6
It's the meat that isn't there yet. If you want to get anywhere with the EA version, you need to code-in some features yourself.
But, while TSE lacks lots of features, I find it much easier to code-in new graphics-related features, unlike TGE. As example, lighting: it isn't there, but after reading the source code, it looks relatively easy to add TLK-level dynamic lighting to the TSShapes. Adding some sort of shadowing also doesn't look very hard, and I got a halftone-print effect without even recompiling the engine, just telling it to load my custom shaders.
Of course, I speak as someone who has worked with TGE for more than a year and a half. For someone with TGE experience, TSE looks much more flexible to source-code customization. For someone that is starting right now, I wouldn't recommend TSE before it reaches a more mature state.
03/31/2006 (8:42 am)
I agree it's taking a while, but we paid for an EA license, then we get an EA product. From my brief experience with it, TSE is in the starting point: the changes already in there are mere preparations for the real meat. It's the meat that isn't there yet. If you want to get anywhere with the EA version, you need to code-in some features yourself.
But, while TSE lacks lots of features, I find it much easier to code-in new graphics-related features, unlike TGE. As example, lighting: it isn't there, but after reading the source code, it looks relatively easy to add TLK-level dynamic lighting to the TSShapes. Adding some sort of shadowing also doesn't look very hard, and I got a halftone-print effect without even recompiling the engine, just telling it to load my custom shaders.
Of course, I speak as someone who has worked with TGE for more than a year and a half. For someone with TGE experience, TSE looks much more flexible to source-code customization. For someone that is starting right now, I wouldn't recommend TSE before it reaches a more mature state.
#7
It looks ? Why dont you try ? Go ahead and doit. unfortunately youll realize that implementing correct and efficient lighitng algorithms is more difficult than alll previous TSe milestones toghetehr. And im sorry , but your half-tone effect is shit compared to accurate lighting. I can do half-tone in RenderMoneky.
Bottom line , amigo, from a point of view of game making, TSE is TGE. So your recomandations of "I dont recomand TSE right now" is nill, from a game framework popint of view TSE is TGE. anyone which sustain a different point of view doesnt know what he is talking about. You can develope a game right now with TSE.
The issue is not this. The issue is how much time took GG to add "GFX" layer, and some other minor rendering
mods. Years. It could be done in months, and all their developers which are involved in this know that. Shit friends, I seen full blown engines with 4 shadow techniques, full per-pixel lighing, supporting 4 basic light types, PRT support, full physiscs engine devloped in 12-14 months.
So ... bullshit.
03/31/2006 (2:54 pm)
>>But, while TSE lacks lots of features, I find it much easier to code-in new graphics-related features, unlike >>TGE. As example, lighting: it isn't there, but after reading the source code, it looks relatively easy to add >>TLK-levelIt looks ? Why dont you try ? Go ahead and doit. unfortunately youll realize that implementing correct and efficient lighitng algorithms is more difficult than alll previous TSe milestones toghetehr. And im sorry , but your half-tone effect is shit compared to accurate lighting. I can do half-tone in RenderMoneky.
Bottom line , amigo, from a point of view of game making, TSE is TGE. So your recomandations of "I dont recomand TSE right now" is nill, from a game framework popint of view TSE is TGE. anyone which sustain a different point of view doesnt know what he is talking about. You can develope a game right now with TSE.
The issue is not this. The issue is how much time took GG to add "GFX" layer, and some other minor rendering
mods. Years. It could be done in months, and all their developers which are involved in this know that. Shit friends, I seen full blown engines with 4 shadow techniques, full per-pixel lighing, supporting 4 basic light types, PRT support, full physiscs engine devloped in 12-14 months.
So ... bullshit.
#8
That being said, I know they missed plenty of time developing marble blast ultra for xbox360. And this was a good money maker for them. And lets face it, if they dont make money they wont stay in business and we'll all be screwed.
So GG please throw us a bone this year. Make it christmas in July!!
03/31/2006 (7:59 pm)
I really hope they start releasing atlas fixes and get freakin busy on lighting and shadows. I have some time right now because I'm working on models but seeing that it has been two years and the engine is only half done, scares me. I think TSE can/will be a great engine when it's main features are done. I just wish they'd put TSE as a priority.That being said, I know they missed plenty of time developing marble blast ultra for xbox360. And this was a good money maker for them. And lets face it, if they dont make money they wont stay in business and we'll all be screwed.
So GG please throw us a bone this year. Make it christmas in July!!
#9
If you dont like where TSE is going, or how long it's taking, dont deal with it till it's done.
Talking about other engines that had features X, Y, and Z, done in T gets no one anything.
You seem to speak highly of GG's work on TGE and it's uses, but turn around and claim that GG is a money-mongering corperation that cares about nothing other than getting money and making people wait.
I'll beleive you more when you take TGE, gut it's rendering code(that's right. all of it)and implement your own GFX layer in a few months.
Please, i'm waiting.
You're taking time
I'll pay, but if i wait, i'll be an unsatisfied customer, and then i'll have to call you mean things, which you'll OBVIOUSLY take seriously and work faster right?
As stated, if you're not happy, find something else.
I've got TSE, and yes, while some stuff is left to be desired, alot of stuff it awsome and useable.
Another thing: your comment about the tech existing since 2k2. Fine, but has it been used in games since then? At all?
We're finding papers and tech all the time from *years* ago(dynamic realtime shadowmapping back in '97? eh?)but that doesnt mean it's been implemented or really used.
Just because the tech itself is old doesnt instantly label it's use to be.
Atlas's algo's may not be new, but i've yet to see anything even remotely as impressive as it, though if you point me to something, i'd happily concede to your point.
Bottom line though, is if you have nothing better to do than complain about GG having more than one thing to do, go home and come back when they're done.
You may still whine, but dont let it be here.
03/31/2006 (9:09 pm)
Dan, seriosuly, relax.If you dont like where TSE is going, or how long it's taking, dont deal with it till it's done.
Talking about other engines that had features X, Y, and Z, done in T gets no one anything.
You seem to speak highly of GG's work on TGE and it's uses, but turn around and claim that GG is a money-mongering corperation that cares about nothing other than getting money and making people wait.
I'll beleive you more when you take TGE, gut it's rendering code(that's right. all of it)and implement your own GFX layer in a few months.
Please, i'm waiting.
You're taking time
I'll pay, but if i wait, i'll be an unsatisfied customer, and then i'll have to call you mean things, which you'll OBVIOUSLY take seriously and work faster right?
As stated, if you're not happy, find something else.
I've got TSE, and yes, while some stuff is left to be desired, alot of stuff it awsome and useable.
Another thing: your comment about the tech existing since 2k2. Fine, but has it been used in games since then? At all?
We're finding papers and tech all the time from *years* ago(dynamic realtime shadowmapping back in '97? eh?)but that doesnt mean it's been implemented or really used.
Just because the tech itself is old doesnt instantly label it's use to be.
Atlas's algo's may not be new, but i've yet to see anything even remotely as impressive as it, though if you point me to something, i'd happily concede to your point.
Bottom line though, is if you have nothing better to do than complain about GG having more than one thing to do, go home and come back when they're done.
You may still whine, but dont let it be here.
#10
www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=427393
There are some answers from Tim Aste about TSE and other things related. It still saddens me that the GG site isn't the first place chosen for any kind of Q & A, especially when it directly relates to the engine we've paid for, including private forums for that type of thing
03/31/2006 (9:20 pm)
As a reference and for questions that don't seen to get answered here.. www.tribalwar.com/forums/showthread.php?t=427393
There are some answers from Tim Aste about TSE and other things related. It still saddens me that the GG site isn't the first place chosen for any kind of Q & A, especially when it directly relates to the engine we've paid for, including private forums for that type of thing
#11
There isnt any laws which would force me not to post on those forums. So I will post here anytime I feel so. If you dont like what I have to say please, ignore the post, dont let it hurt your feelings. Do whatever you want, I dont care.
>>I'll beleive you more when you take TGE, gut it's rendering code(that's right. all of it)and implement your own >>GFX layer in a few months.
Anytime you want me to do some contract work for your group or game with TGE, please contact me and tell me what you want done, timeframe, advance me a figure so we can negotiate. Dont waste my time if you dont have a concrete proposal.
04/01/2006 (12:20 am)
@JeffThere isnt any laws which would force me not to post on those forums. So I will post here anytime I feel so. If you dont like what I have to say please, ignore the post, dont let it hurt your feelings. Do whatever you want, I dont care.
>>I'll beleive you more when you take TGE, gut it's rendering code(that's right. all of it)and implement your own >>GFX layer in a few months.
Anytime you want me to do some contract work for your group or game with TGE, please contact me and tell me what you want done, timeframe, advance me a figure so we can negotiate. Dont waste my time if you dont have a concrete proposal.
#12
Well, of course. This is so charachteristic for GG. It shows their respect from your money and the fact that you invested in their EA products. They dont even post on their forums the new. Hopefully they solve their "batch" rendering issues they talk about once for all. Last time I heard, right before MBU was done , they also had batch rendering problems, You would expect that 5 months is enough for them to fix those problems. But seems they aint able too =)
Botoom line, GG's policy and their respect for *YOU* the customer of TSE is 0. They are not interested to give you a finished TSE, you alreay payed for it. They also keep silence regarding features, current project status and so on, because they dont care you are left in fog. Its because they dont work on TSE with months.
What they do is lame. More and more ppl are feed up with their behaviour ond TSE speed and leave for other engines , such as C4 or Unigine.
GG, thanks for taking our money , and use them for your games. Also thanks for not finishing TSE.
04/01/2006 (12:29 am)
@JeremiahWell, of course. This is so charachteristic for GG. It shows their respect from your money and the fact that you invested in their EA products. They dont even post on their forums the new. Hopefully they solve their "batch" rendering issues they talk about once for all. Last time I heard, right before MBU was done , they also had batch rendering problems, You would expect that 5 months is enough for them to fix those problems. But seems they aint able too =)
Botoom line, GG's policy and their respect for *YOU* the customer of TSE is 0. They are not interested to give you a finished TSE, you alreay payed for it. They also keep silence regarding features, current project status and so on, because they dont care you are left in fog. Its because they dont work on TSE with months.
What they do is lame. More and more ppl are feed up with their behaviour ond TSE speed and leave for other engines , such as C4 or Unigine.
GG, thanks for taking our money , and use them for your games. Also thanks for not finishing TSE.
#13
GG is a great company providing their users with EXACTLY what they paid for I do not believe that any of their advertising was in farse or misleading. If you bought TSE you got what you paid for never did they specify a completion date so if it is never completed you still got what you paid for at the end of the day.
-Jace
04/01/2006 (12:59 am)
I really can't believe you would bash GG over something so trivial. It seems like everday they get more and more people being impatient morons and not cutting them any slack. I will tell you this much right now the money they have made off selling the engine to us is not enough to pay them all a decent coders wages. I rather not know when the product is going to be dcone because when it misses that mark and believe me it would I would be pissed off even more. Further more I believe TSE will move very quickly now that TGE 1.4 came out and is no longer in active development to my understanding. GG is a great company providing their users with EXACTLY what they paid for I do not believe that any of their advertising was in farse or misleading. If you bought TSE you got what you paid for never did they specify a completion date so if it is never completed you still got what you paid for at the end of the day.
-Jace
#14
04/01/2006 (2:07 am)
Jace, your a moron, to use the term you like so much. TSE doesnt move too fast, amigo. TGE 1.4 is out by many months now. If you dont see this , your a fanboy moron. I can only laugh in your face.
#15
In threads like this one it always seems your either a fanboy or asshole, no matter what..
Why can't people behave like adults whenever it comes to digital forums? For some reason it always turn in to some kind of flamewar.
The publishing scheme of Garagegames isn't a secret, has never been. Sure we're excited and want new toys but bitching about it or acting like a big jerk only adds to the noise.
It doesn't make developer work faster, it doesn't make the community progress...
Dan, you're right, you haven't exactly broken any laws with your comments here because we haven't legislated against stupidity yet.
Start behaving like an adult instead and notice the change in the general attitude towards you need in this matter.
04/01/2006 (2:30 am)
Not another one of these threads...Quote:your a fanboy moron. I can only laugh in your face.
In threads like this one it always seems your either a fanboy or asshole, no matter what..
Why can't people behave like adults whenever it comes to digital forums? For some reason it always turn in to some kind of flamewar.
The publishing scheme of Garagegames isn't a secret, has never been. Sure we're excited and want new toys but bitching about it or acting like a big jerk only adds to the noise.
It doesn't make developer work faster, it doesn't make the community progress...
Dan, you're right, you haven't exactly broken any laws with your comments here because we haven't legislated against stupidity yet.
Start behaving like an adult instead and notice the change in the general attitude towards you need in this matter.
#16
Seeing as you're a "Novice Gamer" I wouldn't let it get to you, but honestly - you don't seem to know a thing about how this stuff works. You do have a few good points, but you present them like a 8-year old, so it doesn't interest me in the slightest to even read trough all your constant whining.
04/01/2006 (4:02 am)
Dan,Seeing as you're a "Novice Gamer" I wouldn't let it get to you, but honestly - you don't seem to know a thing about how this stuff works. You do have a few good points, but you present them like a 8-year old, so it doesn't interest me in the slightest to even read trough all your constant whining.
#17
We're finding papers and tech all the time from *years* ago(dynamic realtime shadowmapping back in '97? eh?)but that doesnt mean it's been implemented or really used."
Exactly, BSP was invented in the 1960s but it wasn't really used to it's full until Carmack implemented it in Quake 1 so saying X feature has been around since 2002 is stupid, 3 years isn't that big an amount of time when compared to other tech.
04/01/2006 (4:08 am)
"Another thing: your comment about the tech existing since 2k2. Fine, but has it been used in games since then? At all?We're finding papers and tech all the time from *years* ago(dynamic realtime shadowmapping back in '97? eh?)but that doesnt mean it's been implemented or really used."
Exactly, BSP was invented in the 1960s but it wasn't really used to it's full until Carmack implemented it in Quake 1 so saying X feature has been around since 2002 is stupid, 3 years isn't that big an amount of time when compared to other tech.
#19
I've been quiote patient and calm, however I think its time GG rewards the patience of myself and everyone else by working a bit more towards results. TGE is old news now, soon people won't even be concerned with it because its tech will simply be long gone in the dust. TSE is GG's way to stay up to date. However at this rate, they'll be way behind already by the time its done.
04/01/2006 (9:38 am)
As grateful for GG's work as I am and as patient as I've been as well, I must agree with those that say TSE has taken way too long. It seems to me it was simply never put on high enough priority. When it came out on EA release, I bought it right away, so excited and glad I got ahold of it before it was released and I'd have to pay 50 bucks more. Nearly 2 years pass and.. nothing's changed. Its still EA and actually, not too different then from when I first bought it. Bit faster and more stable, but still very unstable. Its still a pain in the ass to do the simple task of getting my normal maps to work right.I've been quiote patient and calm, however I think its time GG rewards the patience of myself and everyone else by working a bit more towards results. TGE is old news now, soon people won't even be concerned with it because its tech will simply be long gone in the dust. TSE is GG's way to stay up to date. However at this rate, they'll be way behind already by the time its done.
#20
Really, not a massively long time for what will be a high-end product.
If you arent happy with how some of the stuff works in it, i'd like to challenge you guys to try and change that. If you get some bug or issue fixed and submitted to GG, it'd be one less thing for them to work on later.
Also, i agree that because 1.4's not in the pipes anymore, TSE can start getting some real attention again. While it does suck that it's been getting back-burnered, I'm not going to complain because even though TSE isnt as workable as we'd all like, it's still functional and works as a test-bed in the *very* least. If it's die-hard critical to get TSE finished, work on stuff stuff too instead of being a couch-commander about it.
Dan:
That was my, apparently failed, attempt at sarcasm. While i understand that some complete engines have indeed been written in about a year, i would like to question 2 things about them: 1) how big was the team, and 2) it was written from scratch correct?
I ask number 2 because if you've ever really gotten deep into Torque, you can understand that taking out some stuff can blow the whole thing up in your face, and sometimes, it'd be easier to just work on the thing seperately than try to do a deep integration.
Working from scratch doesnt cause problems like that. You take the feature set, code it together and you have the stuff you want(or close enough to it anyways).
However, taking a fully developed engine, and then taking out a *pretty* important part of it, you know, the rendering engine, and trying to write IN a new one that completely integrates with the engine without having to write the whole engine over again isnt exactly a simple task.
There's more hurtles to jump because of this, but in the end it means that other than better rendering, Torque wont change much at all.
Even more so the fact that GG's been working on a lot of other stuff of late, such as MBU, GDC stuff(Legions peeled Tim aste, 3 other people and Ben G off their other work to work on it, meaning not a lot of time went to their respective projects for TSE. tragic, but that's how ti works), 1.4 etc.
If we all have the time to putz around and complain about how unhappy with the state of the product we are, how about we attempt to work and fix it instead of waiting for the people you're not happy with to do it?
No one's forcing you to use the engine, wait for GG to work on it(though you claim GG never will, which would be all the more reason to do the work yourself, dont you think?)or complain about it.
It's rather baffling that people are willing to take the effort to complain about this sort of thing than solve it.
We're working on some pretty hefty tech ourselves over at TTR, and while yes, TSE isnt that stable, fast, or even crossplatform(much to the dismay of our other coder) we're still trying to work with it.
Why cant you guys? If you're spent money is so important to you, how about you take the effort to get your money's worth?
04/01/2006 (10:08 am)
You know, i find it curious that HL2 was 6 years in the development(alot of which was because of Source being written), and TSE's been in dev for...what, 2?Really, not a massively long time for what will be a high-end product.
If you arent happy with how some of the stuff works in it, i'd like to challenge you guys to try and change that. If you get some bug or issue fixed and submitted to GG, it'd be one less thing for them to work on later.
Also, i agree that because 1.4's not in the pipes anymore, TSE can start getting some real attention again. While it does suck that it's been getting back-burnered, I'm not going to complain because even though TSE isnt as workable as we'd all like, it's still functional and works as a test-bed in the *very* least. If it's die-hard critical to get TSE finished, work on stuff stuff too instead of being a couch-commander about it.
Dan:
That was my, apparently failed, attempt at sarcasm. While i understand that some complete engines have indeed been written in about a year, i would like to question 2 things about them: 1) how big was the team, and 2) it was written from scratch correct?
I ask number 2 because if you've ever really gotten deep into Torque, you can understand that taking out some stuff can blow the whole thing up in your face, and sometimes, it'd be easier to just work on the thing seperately than try to do a deep integration.
Working from scratch doesnt cause problems like that. You take the feature set, code it together and you have the stuff you want(or close enough to it anyways).
However, taking a fully developed engine, and then taking out a *pretty* important part of it, you know, the rendering engine, and trying to write IN a new one that completely integrates with the engine without having to write the whole engine over again isnt exactly a simple task.
There's more hurtles to jump because of this, but in the end it means that other than better rendering, Torque wont change much at all.
Even more so the fact that GG's been working on a lot of other stuff of late, such as MBU, GDC stuff(Legions peeled Tim aste, 3 other people and Ben G off their other work to work on it, meaning not a lot of time went to their respective projects for TSE. tragic, but that's how ti works), 1.4 etc.
If we all have the time to putz around and complain about how unhappy with the state of the product we are, how about we attempt to work and fix it instead of waiting for the people you're not happy with to do it?
No one's forcing you to use the engine, wait for GG to work on it(though you claim GG never will, which would be all the more reason to do the work yourself, dont you think?)or complain about it.
It's rather baffling that people are willing to take the effort to complain about this sort of thing than solve it.
We're working on some pretty hefty tech ourselves over at TTR, and while yes, TSE isnt that stable, fast, or even crossplatform(much to the dismay of our other coder) we're still trying to work with it.
Why cant you guys? If you're spent money is so important to you, how about you take the effort to get your money's worth?
Torque Owner Jeremiah Fulbright
I do have to shake my head that those who paid for the engine, haven't been given much more information about the release schedule/plans, beyond the initial "schedule of changes".. but TW gets that information firsthand with none of it being mentioned here, anywhere :( A few bug fixes for important things would be nice between now and then though.