Women and sexism in gaming

#1 I don't think sexism is a gaming problem, it's a general everyday problem, and a lof ot sexist people just happen to play video games online. If you think of it, probably most cultures around the world practice sexism and oppression of women, probably since the beginning of time. Many cultures have improved over time, yet some are still the same as they were 100's or even 1,000's of years ago.

To see this in video games is no more of a surprise than seeing it in your everyday workplace setting. As far as changing the way I make my game, I wasn't really planning much things in the game that are very gender specific. Don't get me wrong, if my female characters may look like I was going for sex appeal, that's only because the female body is beautiful and I'll try to portray the characters from my point of view. I do have a half-naked demon character, but I really can picture a demon looking like that, as I'm sure "demons" wouldn't really care much for clothing if there were such things. Female custume design has been a "problem" for many people, but I don't think games do any more harm than the media does in that area (TV and magazines practically tell young girls and women what they should look like).

Outside of costume design (which may offend both men and women as we recently learned), what parts of an average game make it sexist? Do we need to change our games? Not really, it's society for the most part.

#2 Games aren't sexist. Games are of the devil. Just ask the religious extremists. And if games are of the devil, then they must not be sexist, cause sexism is the cornerstone of religious extremists.

Seriously though, I don't think games are sexist. There may be a lot of sexist gamers out there. Definitely a lot of sexist game developers. Wait. No. That's sex starved game developers. Sorry. Anyway.

I think that all of the polls about who plays games are bullshit. As if people who take these polls really pay enough attention to their lives or have even close to an objective perspective. Whatever. The poll makers make money and the students get their grade and the truth remains as elussive and complicated as ever.

I need sleep this week.

#3

Quote:And if games are of the devil, then they must not be sexist, cause sexism is the cornerstone of religious extremists.

LOL! That was beautiful. That should be like the quote of the month.

#4 My girlfriend and I both play World of Warcraft and I must say that the above results are fairly accurate with us.

- She always creates a girl character and I have often switched from one to the other.

- Im no dummy when it comes to dueling and pvp, and she is capable of kicking my ass when we are evenly matched ( not intimdated )

- She also plays Counter Strike Source, however is not as proficient. Dont get me wrong she is rarely at the bottom of the scoreboard and my does she love that shotgun.

- A note about sexism:
As far as game models go, I noticed that in City of Heroes my girlfriend and other women I knew that made female characters, would choose the "sexiest" and/or "slutiest" costumes imaginable. Women objectifying women? Is that sexism?
City of Heroes is another MMORPG, which has extensive costume customization.

If guys want it... and girls want it...

I do realize that my observations do not encompass everyone, however those are my observations involving women and games.

#5 I dont feel objectified when I see conan the barbarian or the terminator.

Since the dawn of man:
- Guys are muscle and violence.
- Girls are curves and sex.

it allows the storyteller to use common steriotypes to increase the audience's afinity twords the characters, without wasting hours with backstory on just why the guy is big and strong and is good at killing people.

#6 @Jason

LOL!! That's the most succinct explanation of two dimensional story telling that I have ever heard. LOL!!

#7 I think you awarded an extra dimension there, Anton.

#8 Jason is right though. In games, stories, movies (etc), the heroes are more masculine and the heroines are more feminine. We identify with the characters, and want to identify with our ideals. Most People don't want to watch or play the greasy guy who has trouble with women, or the pimply girl with glasses who is afraid to call guys on the phone. We get enough of that at home -- escapism appeals to who we want to be.

#9 I agree with most of what has been said here. sexism in gaming is a direct result of our society, culture and norms.

however, no one here has addressed one of the more interesting stats of this thread. why do women gamers always go for female avatars, while males are evenly split between the two?

personally, when I'm starting a game for the first time, i usually instinctively choose the female player. i find female players in games to usually be more agile and underestimated.

#10 Escapism and verisimilitude apply to ideals and the ideals most often presented and encoded are those of the dominant culture. Unlike racial minorities in predominantly white cultures, women have the distinct feature of being necessarily integrated by the necessity of their physical body to the continuation of human order as well as a being a subordinate inferior to the dominant culture. When minorities rally against stereotypical presentation it is because the presentation is rendered through a white male gaze, which is often less than ideal to the minority object even if it serves the purpose of the object's dominant masters.

As to gaming in particular, and single-player non-story oriented games especially, the character is a representative artifice often lacking in dimension simply because only as much dimension is given to adequately justify the gameplay. The avatar in Unreal, gender selectable by voice, yet identityless is a good example. Doom and Tomb Raider are as well. None of these characters need to be deep. Duke's mysogeny defines his character against a gaming landscape of empy carcases.

In online gaming, competition drives an attitude of gender superiority. Sadly, most of the rules which accorded athletic prowess in competition do not factor and yet are comprable simply by the attitudes presented. But I have found that experience dictates a large portion of this attitude. Men raised in a competative gaming tradition trounce and brag regardless of the gender of their opponent. Yet, when gender becomes known, being a "n00b" becomes superceded by "playing like a girl"--and the notion is also often used as a jibe for male players who are especially bad.

I can't speak particularly about MMO's since I haven't played one that has been worth the price of admission, let alone paying for more months. So I am not sure what the gender landscape is there.

Just a few random thoughts that I had.

#11 @Sean: From the paper:

Quote:Of the 14 male participants, seven had a male character as their main character and
seven had a female character as their main character. All 14 of the female
participants played female characters as their main character. The majority of those
that played their own gender stated that it simply made sense to play a character
that matched their true gender. Some of the women stated that they "prefer playing
a female just because I like role-playing a strong woman."7
Of the male respondents who played female characters, the majority stated
that aesthetics went into their decision. One respondent stated that "If I'm going to
stare at someone for hours on end, I'd like them to be aesthetically pleasing. I find
the female WoW models to be rather attractive, and nicer to view than the male
models."8
However, there were also male respondents that chose to play female
characters for other reasons than the physical appearance. One male who played a
female character stated that he did find his character attractive, however chose to
play a female due to the fact that he has "always associated more with female
characters" due to his personality in real life. He described himself as more of the
"sensitive and caring type" who "never really felt the stereotypical 'macho' guy"
suited him well.9

One other thing to keep in mind is that the paper dealt moreso with sexist behavior in MMOs than sexism in game presentation.

#12 I don't think sexism is a problem in games, All of the girls I know love to be portrayed in these ways. I'm personally not that prone Aesthetics. I'll play any game that plays well. I do have freinds who will only play games like FFVII for the female characters, though.

#13 If I play female characters I usually have 2 reasons...

1. the guys playing male characters almost always hope I am really a female and help out or throw bonuses my way.
2. I keep logs of chats and love to post the logs of guys hitting on me. In star wars galaxies, I actually had a guy ask me out on a date.

#14 Sexism:

A friend of mine has an "interesting" idea of why guys are better at Sports, Games, "Driving"(his words not mine)... ect.

In the early stages of man, male figures hunted to stay alive. This required certian skills to be successful in survival. A womans key role was to reproduce and raise childeren. Thus his theory is that through survival of the fittest Male figures gained skills that make them better at those types of activities.

Don't get me wrong... he's not saying that guys are better at those activities than girls. He's saying that guys have more instinctive skills that make them better when there is little to no training.

In other words:
A male trained drag racer can still get his ass kicked by a trained female drag racer ( response time is usually the determining factor in a drag race )

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I couldnt think of any response that would prove him wrong at the time... maybe one of you could be more insightful

#15 The key problem with an evolutionary approach to historical socialization is that there is not biologically sound way to prove whether such an instinctual evolution was possible. It is delegated to the realm of constant theory without practical evidence to support it (though there is a huge theoretical base). One of the key factors in evaluating evolutionary data in terms of humans has been in primate research under the necessary assumption that since we are extremely similar genetically, our evolutionary model should be somewhat similar as well. So we utilize data collected from primate societies to help postulate how primative human societies developed. Unfortunately we also often graft our own modern social perception onto the data. For example, studying German history in the 1950's is more reflective of the American attitude towards Germany than it is towards "factual" history of Germany. The post-war ideologies were grafted onto the minds (and publication mentality) of historians. We do similar things to the historical record in terms of our evolutionary gaze. It's neither good nor bad. It's just something that happens in even the most objective studies.

The same theory has been applied to racial dominance (white supremecy being the loudest discourse, but several studies on why black athletes are categorically better than whites has also been put forth over the years), a social argument for rape as a natural tendency of males (modeled on Orangatans), etc. The popularity of such theories waxes and wanes as does the intellectual landscape of most scientific journals.

Is there credence in such a theory? Most likely. Are there many unaccounted factors? Definitely. Social enculturation of grafted ethics, morals, aesthetics, power relationships, and such are other factors that will have a profound impact at various points in our lives regardless of what our innate biological makeup presents. One of the problems with trying to rationalize gender is that we often need to start with a "pure" definition and any definition we give to it is tainted with previous construction and assumptions. Race, ethnicity, religion, etc. share this taint when trying to deconstruct them.

#16 In other words... too many variables are present to pin point the reason that more guys play video games than girls ( and are usually better at fast action games ).

I must admit that when im playing with a girl I either don't expect as much from them or if they are falling behind I will usually fall back to make sure they are OK. This may be sexist or catering to a stereotype... but not in a harmful way.

Another thing I find myself doing in World of Warcraft is, any time I see a female character kicking ass I automatically switch my mental picture of the player from female to male. This has got to be sexist, however its slowly changing as I see girls that I play with excelling far beyond "noobish" male players and sometimes even better than good male players.

All in all, I would have to say that women are quickly becoming a larger part of the videogame market. And not just with the Sims and puzzle games, but with games that most would consider male dominated games. So for anyone worried about catering to the women part of the market, DONT. If your game is good people will play it. Some people might even buy it instead of pirating it :)

#17 Sometimes it is not that there are too many variables, but that we are already predisposed to select certain ones based upon assumptions which may be wholly incorrect when it comes to interpreting other people yet seems natural because that is how we see them.

#18 Well said, David.

#19 It's funny to read threads like these and watch people tiptoe between reality and Political Correctness.

#20 "'Reality' is the only word in the human language that should always be used in quotes." - Nichole Blackman