No mom, I'm doing research...
by Pat Wilson · in General Discussion · 03/25/2001 (7:47 pm) · 12 replies
This is a quote I pulled off of Voodoo Extreme by Raph Koster during GDC:
I though this was very interesting that people who have never played certain gametypes had set out to make them. The market is primed, folks, for gamers to start making their own games.
Quote:
The other day during the tutorial we ran, I had a very scary experience. I asked the audience of a few hundred, "So, how many of you have played EQ?" And four hands went up. "Really? Wow, I'm surprised," I commented--since these days it seems like I can't go to the grocery store without overhearing someone talk about their 23rd level necro.
"OK, how many of you played UO?" Five hands. More than EQ. Surprising. "Asheron's Call?" Around a dozen hands--OK, it keeps getting weirder. "Other?" A few stragglers, like five maybe.
Then I asked the biggie. "How many of you are currently making or soon plan to be making a massively multiplayer online world?"
ALL the hands went up.
It was all I could do not to sigh into the microphone... "...doomed. You're all doomed."
I though this was very interesting that people who have never played certain gametypes had set out to make them. The market is primed, folks, for gamers to start making their own games.
About the author
#2
This was possible because of the existance of extremely flexible and powerful engines that allowed for rapid-prototyping. One of the most prolific was MicroMUSE, which was basically a scriptable object-oriented database. I've seen all manner of combat, roleplaying, messanging, NPC, and equipment systems implemented all using the same program. Writing script for these things was dead-simple, yet extremely powerful (most included events, semaphores, string parsing, parameter replacement, object references, and list processing), so people could play with ideas as quickly as they though of them. That and they could be updated on-the-fly, so most of the muds were constantly evolving.
If we had a similar engine that send 3d data to a client instead of simple text, I think we'd see the same thing happen again: a plethora of new ideas which could be tested and refined very easily and rapidly. IIRC, I read that AC was designed using the same concept as the old muds, so it has been done.
Before this gets too long (too late), I'll get to what I originally wanted to say. Pat is right, in order to make a good RPG you have to know what was done before. Not only the current generation (UO, AC, EQ), but the vast numbers of older muds out there. I just can't help feeling there's such an untapped mass of ideas and experience in text-based muds. Go check them out, I implore you. Just because they're text, doesn't mean they're bad.
03/25/2001 (8:48 pm)
I think what we really need in order to start seeing some really good MMRPGs in a generic engine like the old text-based muds/mushes/moos. Having played a lot of them in years past, I saw such a variety of ideas and systems all implemented using the same code-base. For every idea on RPGs I've read on a forum, there are three muds out there that have tried it in different ways.This was possible because of the existance of extremely flexible and powerful engines that allowed for rapid-prototyping. One of the most prolific was MicroMUSE, which was basically a scriptable object-oriented database. I've seen all manner of combat, roleplaying, messanging, NPC, and equipment systems implemented all using the same program. Writing script for these things was dead-simple, yet extremely powerful (most included events, semaphores, string parsing, parameter replacement, object references, and list processing), so people could play with ideas as quickly as they though of them. That and they could be updated on-the-fly, so most of the muds were constantly evolving.
If we had a similar engine that send 3d data to a client instead of simple text, I think we'd see the same thing happen again: a plethora of new ideas which could be tested and refined very easily and rapidly. IIRC, I read that AC was designed using the same concept as the old muds, so it has been done.
Before this gets too long (too late), I'll get to what I originally wanted to say. Pat is right, in order to make a good RPG you have to know what was done before. Not only the current generation (UO, AC, EQ), but the vast numbers of older muds out there. I just can't help feeling there's such an untapped mass of ideas and experience in text-based muds. Go check them out, I implore you. Just because they're text, doesn't mean they're bad.
#3
On one hand, they are massively difficult to create, because of the sheer scale, on the other, they can make a huge amount of money (because of the longevity).
When I started writing my last engine, it was purely for creating a nice MMORPG. I knew that I couldnt produce enough content, so it was aimed squarely at making it
modabble by people, it was also focussed at procedural generation of content (which is something that still interests me).
I knew it was a big challenge, and it was unlikely to be completed, but it was a good excersize. In the end, I produced something similar to V12, but I know that whats actually
in V12 is way way more than 1 person could produce. Thats why Ive scrapped what I was working on.
The thing is, probably 95% of the people posting to GG forums etc are probably incapable of producing original quality games. Not merely because of lack of original idea's, but
more the inability to produce original code. You have to realise that modifying an engine like halflife or quake is NOT the same as creating the engine itself. I'm not trying to put mod's
down at all, just want to inject some realism into people's expectations.
Myself, well, I am happy to use a nice codebase as a start, saving man-years of hard work, and allowing me to go ahead with game idea's with SOME chance of completing them.
I only hope that the model of development possible with V12 and gg is viable, that a small team of say, 4 people CAN make a living from producing original, quality games.
At least V12 has reduced one hurdle.
Phil.
03/26/2001 (2:03 am)
I'm in two minds about stuff like MMORPG's etc.On one hand, they are massively difficult to create, because of the sheer scale, on the other, they can make a huge amount of money (because of the longevity).
When I started writing my last engine, it was purely for creating a nice MMORPG. I knew that I couldnt produce enough content, so it was aimed squarely at making it
modabble by people, it was also focussed at procedural generation of content (which is something that still interests me).
I knew it was a big challenge, and it was unlikely to be completed, but it was a good excersize. In the end, I produced something similar to V12, but I know that whats actually
in V12 is way way more than 1 person could produce. Thats why Ive scrapped what I was working on.
The thing is, probably 95% of the people posting to GG forums etc are probably incapable of producing original quality games. Not merely because of lack of original idea's, but
more the inability to produce original code. You have to realise that modifying an engine like halflife or quake is NOT the same as creating the engine itself. I'm not trying to put mod's
down at all, just want to inject some realism into people's expectations.
Myself, well, I am happy to use a nice codebase as a start, saving man-years of hard work, and allowing me to go ahead with game idea's with SOME chance of completing them.
I only hope that the model of development possible with V12 and gg is viable, that a small team of say, 4 people CAN make a living from producing original, quality games.
At least V12 has reduced one hurdle.
Phil.
#4
Imagination
Creativity
Talent
Vision
Ability to Storyboard
Scripting [And I don't mean AI, think "Undying/Deus Ex/System Shock 2"]
Of course the later points are perhaps more key to FPS then say a game like Tribes2 where to some extent the players bring their own stories and scripts.
What we are seeing now is the forth generation of the gaming industry. Your games now not only need to "look good", and sports lots of "eye candy", you need real *content* in there - And that's what will seperate the successful from the run of the pack. Of course that's just my highly biased opinion.
Remember anyone can be a writer, but only those that have the above listed attributes will be considered "good" writers.
Mike
04/20/2001 (10:54 am)
Well the one thing to keep in mind that perhaps is the saving grace for developers is while opportunities like GarageGames and V12 in theory allows everyone and their dog to make a game, MMPORG or whatever, there are still a few keys that technology does not provide that will distinguish you from "everyone else".Imagination
Creativity
Talent
Vision
Ability to Storyboard
Scripting [And I don't mean AI, think "Undying/Deus Ex/System Shock 2"]
Of course the later points are perhaps more key to FPS then say a game like Tribes2 where to some extent the players bring their own stories and scripts.
What we are seeing now is the forth generation of the gaming industry. Your games now not only need to "look good", and sports lots of "eye candy", you need real *content* in there - And that's what will seperate the successful from the run of the pack. Of course that's just my highly biased opinion.
Remember anyone can be a writer, but only those that have the above listed attributes will be considered "good" writers.
Mike
#5
Asheron's Call *claimed* to be able to produce content "on-the-fly", but it was utter trash. And Phil, if you're worried about the depth of your original content, check out the paper-thin world in AC.
The fellow at Skotos Tech cited some advantages text had over graphics in the ease of dynamically updating--probably some fairly obvious stuff for many here.
Their tool could be a good storytelling gadget. Easier for someone tech-light like me, for sure. And I'm still pissed about Mark Hood's patronizing comment about GG being a "farm team" for Sierra in the context of the V12 engine, but I'll save the rant
for them what don't want their eyes seared.
Dave
04/20/2001 (8:16 pm)
Gamasutra just had an interview with a principal at http://www.skotos.net/. They are using the traditional MUD sort of thing, the DGD server I believe he said, to make a modest living for a few chaps, and giving people the tools to build their own games.Asheron's Call *claimed* to be able to produce content "on-the-fly", but it was utter trash. And Phil, if you're worried about the depth of your original content, check out the paper-thin world in AC.
The fellow at Skotos Tech cited some advantages text had over graphics in the ease of dynamically updating--probably some fairly obvious stuff for many here.
Their tool could be a good storytelling gadget. Easier for someone tech-light like me, for sure. And I'm still pissed about Mark Hood's patronizing comment about GG being a "farm team" for Sierra in the context of the V12 engine, but I'll save the rant
for them what don't want their eyes seared.
Dave
#6
One thing that most of the MMORPGs out there now, and the ones in production, have in common is that the people behind them have little to no MUD experience. MUD administrators, and to a certain extent players, have a pretty good handle on what works, and what doesn't. They also tend to be pretty well in the know about what scales and what doesn't.
The three founders of our venture have about 40 years of mud administration and coding experience between us. About that much time playing MUDs as well. Not just D&D based stuff either, which is again something that's sorta unique. I'm not sure about the Skotos guys, but I know at least one of them is on a MUD developers mailing list that I'm on, where people end up talking about some pretty interesting stuff.
Bottom line, like people have said, there's quite a bit of knowledge out there in the heads of people who have been running MU* for years. Why this knowledge has gone, for the most part, untapped till now, I don't know. Wolfpack claims to be comprised of former PK Mudders, Skotos guys are pretty astute as MUD matters go, and our crew have a boatload of MUD background. I don't know of anyone else out there who's learning from this though.
I could be wrong, of course ;)
04/20/2001 (9:00 pm)
I'm co-founder of a company who is producing a new MMORPG. Whether or not we use V12 is yet to be determined ;)One thing that most of the MMORPGs out there now, and the ones in production, have in common is that the people behind them have little to no MUD experience. MUD administrators, and to a certain extent players, have a pretty good handle on what works, and what doesn't. They also tend to be pretty well in the know about what scales and what doesn't.
The three founders of our venture have about 40 years of mud administration and coding experience between us. About that much time playing MUDs as well. Not just D&D based stuff either, which is again something that's sorta unique. I'm not sure about the Skotos guys, but I know at least one of them is on a MUD developers mailing list that I'm on, where people end up talking about some pretty interesting stuff.
Bottom line, like people have said, there's quite a bit of knowledge out there in the heads of people who have been running MU* for years. Why this knowledge has gone, for the most part, untapped till now, I don't know. Wolfpack claims to be comprised of former PK Mudders, Skotos guys are pretty astute as MUD matters go, and our crew have a boatload of MUD background. I don't know of anyone else out there who's learning from this though.
I could be wrong, of course ;)
#7
Anyone else interested?
04/21/2001 (7:07 am)
Jeremey, please read my post further up the thread. I too am a MUD admin/player of old, and this is exactly what I was talking about. We so need a modern-day MicroMUSE (or whichever you prefer): a scriptable, graphic MUD framework that uses a generic client (or at least a standard protocol for clients to use).Anyone else interested?
#8
I'm considering making some of the mods I do for the commercial project publically available, however. And I'm certainly up for sharing my experiences with people who are doing public projects on their own (I'm already talking some technical stuff over with a couple guys off the site here)
04/21/2001 (8:06 am)
I'd be up for it --- if I wasn't already working on a commercial product :)I'm considering making some of the mods I do for the commercial project publically available, however. And I'm certainly up for sharing my experiences with people who are doing public projects on their own (I'm already talking some technical stuff over with a couple guys off the site here)
#9
Nevrax, www.nevrax.net, is creating a set of GPL libraries to provide graphics, AI, networking, etc., specifically targeted at MMRPG's. Also, my own work, which began as my senior thesis, is to provide a basic infratstructure for nearly any sort of game, but specifically for MMRPG's. So, it hasn't been forgotten, and it will be done.
04/21/2001 (9:58 am)
I definitely agree that we need a basic, flexible engine for MM games. There are two lines of development for that going right now.Nevrax, www.nevrax.net, is creating a set of GPL libraries to provide graphics, AI, networking, etc., specifically targeted at MMRPG's. Also, my own work, which began as my senior thesis, is to provide a basic infratstructure for nearly any sort of game, but specifically for MMRPG's. So, it hasn't been forgotten, and it will be done.
#10
I don't know why you came off sounding a little uptight with that last posting, but you did to me... Your ideas and projects have always interested me before. In fact, procedural (or even better, graphical) dynamic content creation is something that interests me a lot too. NO, I'M NOT YET A MASTER CODER. I believe that you aren't either. I mean worms was cool and all but ... Anyway, I've been playing around with computers for twenty years, and there are tons of people who can program better than I can; even around in this site. But I believe that hobbying ie: scripting and moding can certainly help people along the way to becoming better programmers. To be able to script well is to learn C or Java or whatever and then be able to figure out what weird little quirks the programmers put into their script language because of the way it was written. I mean ... look at the script for Tribes2, it's pretty quirky compared to C and C++. I think John Carmack expressed that idea after QuakeC, so he went to true DLL's and then a real C compiler. Anyway, I'm digressing...
So what if not everybody in here is a great coder? There are great modellers and great artists and great scripters and maybe those people still have great ideas. Perhaps if we get some of us together in a productive way we can make great games based upon great ideas. I believe one of the cool things that licensing V12 might help us with is that we won't have to be great coders to use it! To make some small changes to the code and then spend lots of time on scripting and content ... I think you could make lots of neat things with it. Especially if those of you who are great coders will help to advance the engine.
Sorry for the rant, I just got a little offended I guess.
04/22/2001 (1:52 am)
Phil,I don't know why you came off sounding a little uptight with that last posting, but you did to me... Your ideas and projects have always interested me before. In fact, procedural (or even better, graphical) dynamic content creation is something that interests me a lot too. NO, I'M NOT YET A MASTER CODER. I believe that you aren't either. I mean worms was cool and all but ... Anyway, I've been playing around with computers for twenty years, and there are tons of people who can program better than I can; even around in this site. But I believe that hobbying ie: scripting and moding can certainly help people along the way to becoming better programmers. To be able to script well is to learn C or Java or whatever and then be able to figure out what weird little quirks the programmers put into their script language because of the way it was written. I mean ... look at the script for Tribes2, it's pretty quirky compared to C and C++. I think John Carmack expressed that idea after QuakeC, so he went to true DLL's and then a real C compiler. Anyway, I'm digressing...
So what if not everybody in here is a great coder? There are great modellers and great artists and great scripters and maybe those people still have great ideas. Perhaps if we get some of us together in a productive way we can make great games based upon great ideas. I believe one of the cool things that licensing V12 might help us with is that we won't have to be great coders to use it! To make some small changes to the code and then spend lots of time on scripting and content ... I think you could make lots of neat things with it. Especially if those of you who are great coders will help to advance the engine.
Sorry for the rant, I just got a little offended I guess.
#11
I think that modding is great, Ive done it myself (for fun), its a great way to learn GAME programming, as opposed to "engine" stuff (Ive happened to learn both, but as worms proves, you dont have to have a staggering 3D engine to make a salable and fun game).
I just want to advocate a bit of reality in people's expectations, both for themselves and the likelyhood of them making a huge profitable project.
I think what I would like to see, and it seems that Jeff and the guys are looking for, is some small, innovative games, based on good idea's rather than technology, they are providing an unprecedented amount of usable code for people with less experience to learn from and play with, and its really sort of an incubator for people with good idea's and commitment (much like the mod scene).
As for coding, there will ALWAYS be someone better than you, I hope I never get arrogant enough to think that I'm great, or that there is never anyone "better", what I am is a worker, I work hard at what I do. I try to be as professional as I can, I try to learn from my mistakes and remain focussed on my goals, personally I think thats worth as much as any "golden boy" kid who does something amazing once when he's young, and lives off of that for the rest of his life.
I certainly hope no-one takes offense at my remarks here, I guess sometimes I dont word things correctly, so they seem to be putting people down, but I think if you read most of my posts, I am just advocating some sort of realism in people's expectations.
Phil.
04/22/2001 (6:42 am)
Sorry Jim, I didnt mean that in any way to put people down, I just want them to be more realistic about thier own abilities. I see a lot of posts about MMORPG's and how people are going to create the biggest game ever, but many of them havent even produced a teeny tiny game.I think that modding is great, Ive done it myself (for fun), its a great way to learn GAME programming, as opposed to "engine" stuff (Ive happened to learn both, but as worms proves, you dont have to have a staggering 3D engine to make a salable and fun game).
I just want to advocate a bit of reality in people's expectations, both for themselves and the likelyhood of them making a huge profitable project.
I think what I would like to see, and it seems that Jeff and the guys are looking for, is some small, innovative games, based on good idea's rather than technology, they are providing an unprecedented amount of usable code for people with less experience to learn from and play with, and its really sort of an incubator for people with good idea's and commitment (much like the mod scene).
As for coding, there will ALWAYS be someone better than you, I hope I never get arrogant enough to think that I'm great, or that there is never anyone "better", what I am is a worker, I work hard at what I do. I try to be as professional as I can, I try to learn from my mistakes and remain focussed on my goals, personally I think thats worth as much as any "golden boy" kid who does something amazing once when he's young, and lives off of that for the rest of his life.
I certainly hope no-one takes offense at my remarks here, I guess sometimes I dont word things correctly, so they seem to be putting people down, but I think if you read most of my posts, I am just advocating some sort of realism in people's expectations.
Phil.
Torque Owner Jeff Tunnell
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