Torque Commercial EULA Changes
by Prairie Games · in Torque Game Engine · 09/11/2005 (7:42 am) · 75 replies
The Torque Commercial License EULA has been changed. It would appear to now be impossible to create "Code Packs" or other tools with the commercial license.
Under restrictions: (iv) create a Product which is itself a game engine or game-making tool without the express written consent and permission of GarageGames;
Also, the previous license allowed you to make "source code and object code electronic single or multi-user products" while the new one only allows "executable electronic single or multi-user products".
Of course, there is a major loophole: "(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine"
Under the new license, it's not possible to create console products for XBox, PS2, or GameCube without a seperate agreement.
The Changes:
.. is now:
... and this:
...has been changed to:
Both contain this:
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
Under restrictions: (iv) create a Product which is itself a game engine or game-making tool without the express written consent and permission of GarageGames;
Also, the previous license allowed you to make "source code and object code electronic single or multi-user products" while the new one only allows "executable electronic single or multi-user products".
Of course, there is a major loophole: "(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine"
Under the new license, it's not possible to create console products for XBox, PS2, or GameCube without a seperate agreement.
The Changes:
Quote:
2. LICENSE GRANT.
Licensor grants Licensee a single "seat" to an individual, a limited non-exclusive license to use the Torque Game Engine ("Engine) for the purposes of making source code and object code electronic single or multi-user products ("Products").
.. is now:
Quote:
2. LICENSE GRANT.
Licensor grants Licensee a single seat to an individual, a limited non-exclusive license to use the Torque Game Engine (Engine) for the purposes of making executable electronic single or multi-user products ("Products").
... and this:
Quote:
The following restrictions apply to the use of this Engine:
(a) Licensee may not: (i) create any derivative works of the Engine, including translations or localizations, other than the Products; (ii) reverse engineer, or otherwise attempt to derive the algorithms for the Engine (iii) redistribute, encumber, sell, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer rights to the Engine; or (iv) remove or alter any trademark, logo, copyright or other proprietary notices, legends, symbols or labels in the Engine.
(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine.
...has been changed to:
Quote:The following restrictions apply to the use of this Engine:
(a) Licensee may not: (i) create any derivative works of the Engine, including translations or localizations, other than the Products; (ii) reverse engineer, or otherwise attempt to derive the algorithms for the Engine (iii) redistribute, encumber, sell, rent, lease, sublicense, or otherwise transfer rights to the Engine; (iv) create a Product which is itself a game engine or game-making tool without the express written consent and permission of GarageGames; or (v) remove or alter any trademark, logo, copyright or other proprietary notices, legends, symbols or labels in the Engine.
(b) Licensee may not distribute the source code to the engine in any manner, unless recipient also has a license to the Engine.
(c) Licensee may not release Products intended for operation on Game Console Systems including the Microsoft XBox, Sony Playstation 2, Nintendo GameCube, or their successors without first obtaining a separate Torque Game Engine Console License from GarageGames.
Both contain this:
Quote:9. MISCELLANEOUS.
This Agreement may be amended only by a writing signed by both parties.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#2
09/11/2005 (10:35 am)
I thought very highly of GarageGames, but that just sunk bigtime.
#3
And what is the cost of such licence?
If this is the case, then I will have to reconsider contiuing to use Torque. We are attending E3 next year to show case our game to publishers. Why have Garage Games kept this relitivly quite?
09/11/2005 (10:46 am)
I looked on the product page, but is states nowhere that their is a "Torque Game ENgine Licence" so where do yuo get one from?And what is the cost of such licence?
If this is the case, then I will have to reconsider contiuing to use Torque. We are attending E3 next year to show case our game to publishers. Why have Garage Games kept this relitivly quite?
#4
09/11/2005 (10:48 am)
I have to agree ... a commercial license should be a commercial license. I suppose they dropped the price too low when they went from $10,000 -> $495. Obviously if you get your game onto a console though then GG deserves more than $495 though because you've been pretty successful.
#5
I saw one of the employees mention though something along the lines of not being able to release non-game applications made with Torque without their permission anymore. This bit worried me a little, as tools are kind of fun to hack up.
However I'm sure they're not out to screw us, its probably just legal jargon to help protect themselves.
09/11/2005 (10:49 am)
I don't think the changes are that big of a deal.I saw one of the employees mention though something along the lines of not being able to release non-game applications made with Torque without their permission anymore. This bit worried me a little, as tools are kind of fun to hack up.
However I'm sure they're not out to screw us, its probably just legal jargon to help protect themselves.
#6
09/11/2005 (10:49 am)
So uh... why the sudden changes?
#7
09/11/2005 (10:58 am)
Yes Jeremy, I agree with you. If you get your game to cosole, then GG should quite rightly take more than $495. But their are ways of doing things. If you come out and say publicly you can use torque for consloe development but you need a licence for it at the cost of $x. But to just change the licence on the quiet is downright sneeky. 
#8
Would kind of suck to be the new licensee's though. :P
09/11/2005 (11:03 am)
It doesnt matter really. When I purchased my license I agreed to the (then) current license. The license change doesnt effect me, as I'm only bound to the old license.Would kind of suck to be the new licensee's though. :P
#9
09/11/2005 (11:15 am)
True true ...
#10
09/11/2005 (11:26 am)
@Chris Lambombard: SO your saying since i bought TGE under the 10K License i gotta pay 10K? (P.S. I liked the 10K Way better, it allowed you to have a team of like 5 programmers)
#12
09/11/2005 (11:33 am)
No the license that was up when you bought yours is what you abide by.
#14
There was alot of stir back then too, when all the dust had settled most all people found the new license to be pretty good.
I'll wait for the official story on this one before letting of (perhaps ignorant) steam....
09/11/2005 (12:21 pm)
IIRC, the last time there was a change in the license you could stick to the old or go with the new (as long as you'd bought your copy under the old agreement).There was alot of stir back then too, when all the dust had settled most all people found the new license to be pretty good.
I'll wait for the official story on this one before letting of (perhaps ignorant) steam....
#15
I think GG (perhaps tomorrow) will answer this forum...
I hadn't read about localization (I'm french), so I will ask to GG (In all the cases I can't imagine doing a localization without GG permission).
game-making tool? so we can't create game making tools, or games with "editor"? (It's stunning)
game-engine? Hey Guys, you can't think changing two lines of code and selling it 10k$ without retributing GG!
Really, I don't see any problem, except with the concept of game-making tool.
Edit : Bold
09/11/2005 (12:22 pm)
Can someone give me a link to the new EULA.I think GG (perhaps tomorrow) will answer this forum...
I hadn't read about localization (I'm french), so I will ask to GG (In all the cases I can't imagine doing a localization without GG permission).
Quote:create a Product which is itself a game engine or game-making tool without the express written consent and permission of GarageGames;I think nobody can avoid you to create a product. But selling it, it's another question.
game-making tool? so we can't create game making tools, or games with "editor"? (It's stunning)
game-engine? Hey Guys, you can't think changing two lines of code and selling it 10k$ without retributing GG!
Quote:Licensee may not release Products intended for operation on Game Console Systems including the Microsoft XBox, Sony Playstation 2, Nintendo GameCube, or their successors without first obtaining a separate Torque Game Engine Console License from GarageGamesGG Produce nice work in my opinion, so if you have a project on Win, Linux, Max, XBof, PS2, GameCube, you'll earn money, isn't it? So don't forget "base" creators of your game. They need to eat too... (If you don't earn money, don't talk about it;) )
Quote:executable electronic single or multi-user products ("Products").sorry for my poor english, but why can't I create an executable which extract source code?
Really, I don't see any problem, except with the concept of game-making tool.
Edit : Bold
#16
I dev for PC and Mac, I doubt consoles are in my immediate future. How many of you are actually dev.ing for consoles anyways?
09/11/2005 (12:25 pm)
I don't really see the big problem. I was always under the impression you would need to work out a deal with GG for console development anyways though, so maybe thats why...I dev for PC and Mac, I doubt consoles are in my immediate future. How many of you are actually dev.ing for consoles anyways?
#17
I really don't see why anyone really gives a crap about this change. Really, it only affects people who want to make game creation systems (such as the old Adventure Game Maker and the like) and people who want to make games for consoles.
It is important to differentiate between a "code pack" and a "game making tool". One is an add on to Torque, the other is something that competes with Torque.
Seems to me that a lot of people are getting their panties in a knot over nothing.
09/11/2005 (12:42 pm)
@DiGi: Sorry, you prefered $10,000 over $2475 for 5 users developing? That's got to be a first.I really don't see why anyone really gives a crap about this change. Really, it only affects people who want to make game creation systems (such as the old Adventure Game Maker and the like) and people who want to make games for consoles.
It is important to differentiate between a "code pack" and a "game making tool". One is an add on to Torque, the other is something that competes with Torque.
Seems to me that a lot of people are getting their panties in a knot over nothing.
#18
Also why are handhelds not included in the list, PSP, DS etc...
Finally how will this impact indy development.
Hopefully an employee will be able to clarify this.
Keep up the good work.
09/11/2005 (12:44 pm)
If I understand the new licence correctly, when they refer to game creation, they do not mean a level editor that only works with the current game, or will that require written permission?Also why are handhelds not included in the list, PSP, DS etc...
Finally how will this impact indy development.
Hopefully an employee will be able to clarify this.
Keep up the good work.
#19
09/11/2005 (12:47 pm)
I agree with Tim here.. we should wait with assumptions before this settles and GG comments it.
#20
I agree with Tim... some people are getting their panties in a knot over nothing...
Edit : Bold
09/11/2005 (12:55 pm)
Quote:It is important to differentiate between a "code pack" and a "game making tool". One is an add on to Torque, the other is something that competes with Torque.I think you're right. But some "code packs" can also be "game making tool". So I really don't see why a game tool maker can't discuss with GG. I think GG will have some good ideas to help people like this.
I agree with Tim... some people are getting their panties in a knot over nothing...
Edit : Bold
Torque Owner Michael Wojcik