Why such negativity associated with FPS

#1 LOL :)

I also like FPS, I like COD, Half life, Serious Sam...But I like them becouase they are original (altough FPS), however try to play Will Rock, and try to finish this game (I got the game when i purchased new VGA Card) and you will probably say ....OMG not another FPS :)

There are excelent FPS games, but let's face it 90% of them sucks....and it sucks baaaaaadddd!!!! :)

#2

Quote:most of the new technology and techniques introduced into todays games have been created due to a need for it in a particular fps game. Remember i said "most". I mean things like dynamic lighting, stencil shadows, ragdoll physics etc etc.

I think you'll find that all that stuff was developed in academia for non-game purposes before it ever saw light in a computer game.

Games generally do not drive this kind of innovation, except for speed optimizations to previously known algorithms. (Like the fabled 'Carmack's Reverse').

#3 @ Mark Mozynski

True, but it is still true to say that fps had a big role in bringing all that stuff into home computer games. Perhaps it was originally created elsewhere, like the digital movie scene, but eventually that technology was brought into games. Fps games tend to require more demanding technology. Just look at how they've grown from the original doom to say half life 2.

Half life 2 introduced heaps of really cool stuff, i heard some of the rendering techniques came from Pixar Animations Studio. Not to contradict myself by putting down other syles of games, but how many puzzle games drive that type of innovation? Not saying this is a bad thing or puzzle games are bad beacause of it. The beauty of a puzzle game is it's simplicity and fun factor. On the spin side there are heaps of fps games with dazzling graphics but crap gameplay.

The only point i want to make is to people who hate fps games for the wrong reason. Like em or hate them they do have a heavy influence on the rate of technology in the games we ALL play, fps or otherwise...

#4 We all know that the "game genre of the moment" is MMORPG's. Of course that's what a lot of folks are going to shoot for. Unfortunately it's probably one of the most difficult to pull off and a lot of teams that start off with good intentions piddle out.

I for one have nothing against FPS', heck there a few ideas for them rattling around in my noggin. I too am surprised at the lack of work on them considering how easily TGE could be used to make a FPS.

Keep up the good work Tim, the fact that just two of you put that much together in 3 months is incredible. Hope some day I can get to the level I can whip things out that good and that fast :)

#5 I think the negativity towards FPS games stems from the fact that there are so many wannabes out there, whether from the indie sector or the commercial sector. You may say that you don't see any FPS games being developed on Torque, but the truth is that there are a number. Expand the scope to other indie-targeted engines, or roll-your-own engines, and that number multiplies further. Expand that further to the commercial sector, and you see an exponential jump in the number of FPS games being developed and released. I don't think the negativity is directed at the FPS genre as a whole, but rather to the fact that almost every single FPS that has come out over the last 10 years is effectively the same thing rehashed over and over again, and people are getting sick of the lack of innovation. That's not to say that there haven't been innovative games in the genre, but the fact remains that it seems to be one of the easiest genres to crank out derivative drivel in, and that, I fell, is where the negativity and weariness stems from.

More importantly, however, is the fact that unless you have some amazing gameplay and graphics, and innovative bullet-points, you're effectively not going to be able to compete with the big boys. The big boys like Activision, LucasArts, VUG, etc, all have the marketing muscle to saturate the average gamer's head with gorgeous images of large sprawling vistas, insanely scary creatures, large and powerful-looking weapons, etc. They have the clout to push their games into the market and succeed. Indie FPS developers simply don't have that muscle. How many people do you know that have played (or even heard of) The Deadly Dozen? Or Line of Sight: Vietnam? Now ask yourself the same question of Half Life 2 and Doom 3. All are good games in their own regard (I personally prefered both the budget titles to the two biggies), but 90% of the people you'll find in game stores will never have heard of the indie titles. Or they may have seen the box and gone for the big boys because they simply don't have the marketing muscle or the graphics.

So to sum my own 2 cents up, the negativity comes from a general lack of innovation in the genre (gameplay-wise, mind you), and the fact that indies have a hell of a hard time competing with the big boys. The FPS genre is not likely to die off anytime soon in the commercial world, and thus you'll always have quite the mountain to surmount.

#6 Heh, I'm working on a T/FPS but it's a little bit of a different idea. I think people just don't want to play the same exact game with different graphics. Give them a different gameplay concept ... even if it involves first person and shooting and they'll be fine.

Quote:
I think you'll find that all that stuff was developed in academia for non-game purposes before it ever saw light in a computer game.

Quite the contrary, I read in Wired that a lot of the computer graphics stuff helping other fields such as medical science, was actually created because of GAMES not academia! Maybe not those specific things listed ... but in general games drive a lot of outreaching technologies.

#7 We're working on a FPS Horror game, and like you've mentioned, it was ideal for Torque due to the FPS Starter Kit. We plan on implementing multiplayer, role-playing style gameplay, realistic environments and weapons, and intense AI. We'll let the game speak for itself once it's finished, but all I ever hear is how many people are still looking for a good FPS done right. We don't know how well we can get the graphics at this point, but we hope a thrilling, horror-filled change of pace from the traditional FPS game will help spur some love for our game.

I still play FPS games myself (#1 = Postal 2) and I don't see us without them, but rather that they are being developed less rehashingly and more creatively.

Games do indeed drive the push for the enhancements, that's for sure, weither out of creativity or necessity, but it happened in a surreal world first. That's where people are supposed to be creative.

- Ronixus

#8 On the split between academia/industrial application:
Technology has an incestuous relationship at best, because while a lot of the theory comes from the dustier side of academia, the application has been in the application world (of which games are a key part as are technology driven graphics applications such as Photoshop, 3DS Max, Mental Ray, etc, and large-scale enterprise solutions which necessitated the need for network clustering or information warehousing). It would be nice if it were a linear process with a clean breakdown, but it's not. Theory is great, but without an application context, it's of little value to the greater community. Brute force application development can lead to innovation, but it's generally a wasteful process if there's not adequate theory to back it up. Most of the theory still comes from academia or corporate thinktanks in R&D divisions, and much of it has been around for decades but hasn't had a hardware context that a wider variety of people could utilize the theory. Looking at the imaging technology that came out of Wang and Xerox and their university extensions has given us a number of the algorithms that are being used in Photoshop and Mental Ray. At the time, the technology price was so high that only a select few in R&D or at universities with commercial or military contracts could afford it. Now the price-tag has dropped significantly as hardware technology increased. If the model keeps running, the huge-scale technology out of our price-range in R&D today will be available tomorrow within our price-range or it will die without a realistic context.

But it's very difficult to create a linear process from such an esoteric field of study. There's so much inbreeding in theory and application between academia and the commercial and military sectors, that lineage is often nearly impossible to determine. That's not to say that there aren't biggies, but often they are simply the ones who define a context or connect a couple of dots in the middle of a scattergraph.

@Tim Heldna
I think that the attitude that you're seeing is based on market flooding of FPS's rather than quality FPS's. There have been a handful of amazing FPS's, and there have been scores of good FPS's. But there have been millions of cannon fodder FPS's. The Doomlikes, Quakelikes, and such. It's rare to have a game like XIII or Undying make itself stand out. XIII's artistic direction was stronger than its gameplay, but the graphic novel style gave it a feel that nothing else touched. Undying, while not the best shooter on the planet, was a nicely styled horror action title. Echo Night, which was frustrating in terms of step speed for people who were used to fast-action shooters, was a pure FP adventure game. But for every game that stands out, there's a flood of shooters which were horrible. Some littered the bargain bins or were available for download. Many played like a badly realized mod.

I don't think that anyone here has a problem with the FPS as a genre, but they have issues with the commercial industry's flood mentality (look at the number of hunting themed games that hit the market after Deer Hunter made GotY). FPS's have been in constant flood mode for a long time now, and so there's a negativity associated with them until they prove themselves as a quality title. Plus, with the few upper echelon titles, we raise the bar for our expectation on what makes a good FPS, using the higher games as an example.

Since we're all about making bad analogies, the attitude is kind of like hearing the same tired joke a couple hundred times and groaning. But if someone gives a new spin on a tired joke, you'll laugh your ass off.

Good luck on the game. I can't wait to play a demo.

#9 @Tim: I agree with you, I think there is a negative slant towards FPS due to lack of innovation, not in eye candy per say, but in game play and the fun factor.

Just my 2 cents.

BTW: I looked at your game when it was first featured on the snapshot, and it looks good so far. Keep up the good work, and surprise us with innovation.

B--

#10 If you aren't adding anything innovative and new to the mix, then you may as well hang it up. UT 2004, Doom 3, Half-Life 2, Counterstrike, the Halo series, the Battlefield series, and so forth pretty much dominate their variations in the FPS genre. If you are attempting to make a commercial product, there's no real reason why anyone would choose to play your game over any of these other titles.

You can't compete on price either, because anyone can go to Wal*Mart and grab 2002's best shooters (which are STILL going to be "better" than yours) fo $15 or less.

I don't think it's a bad thing to do an FPS - not at all. Particularly if you are doing it just for grins and your own education. But I don't think there's room for "just another FPS" in the marketplace. You have to do something special with it. And too often I don't see people planning "something special" - just, "An FPS like , but with different weapons."

YAWN.

It's like the old days of side-scrollers. I kinda miss the side-scrollers today... and I think there's room for them again. But you STILL have to do something special with them (like GISH, for example).

#11 Jay's argument also holds for RPG/MMORPG and other genres. You have to be different. You have to be good.

#12 FPS's = WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY too saturated market.

#13 I'lm just bored with the doom style stick a gun in front of the camera and have it mouse look without doing anything new. A lot of FPS are pretty easy to code being that simple. Yet they can still be fun. I think my favourite FPS this past year Was Riddick.

Saying that though, making typical FPS TPS game probably isn't the best thing for a Indie, when there is so much competition, particularly when the competition have Huge art teams. Ok it's not an FPS but when they made the splinter cell port for PS2 they had as much as 70 artists working on it for several month. If you want to compete with a typical FPS it has to look damned good, and if it's single player, it needs to have at least 8-10 hours of gameplay with changing scenery that keeps the player engaged.

Jeremy's game might work, don't know. but I think you have to be really careful about being another me too. Without wanting to put your game down. WW2 FPS games were really cool when Hidden and Dangerous came out, and Wolfstein etc. But after a stream of lacklustre MOHA type games from EA. Call of duy etc. It's gotten boring. Brothers in Arms was an exception though :)

With viernam, they had Vietcong, which was kind of interesting and a breath of fresh air with some cool tunes. But there has been a spate of Nam games lately. I liked the beginning of Far Cry A LOT. Because of the sneaking stealth tactics. But that seemed to go out the window later on and turned into yet another boring horor zombie fest just like the halflife, doom and quake series. WHich I find kind of imature and tacky (at least yours isn't one of those).

I'd like to do a FPS, but not one that competes with all the big names. Needs a different spin and a willingness to take a chance on a fickle market. It's a real risk, just look at the number of started FPS games here at GG, and how many get published. I think yours is one of the better looking indie shooters, and I wish you the best of luck with it. BUt it's going to be a hard thing to sell. Particularly when there are so many free MODS and total conversions for commercial games. It's a saturated market, even if just look at the original games themselves, with all the mods your talking about 100's. Almost like puzzle games.

#14 Nice writeup Adrian, Pretty much spot on.

Of course my team is also making an fps but we are hoping to make it a bit different enough (in setting and in features) that it at least offers something fresh.

#15 ----

#16 Just my 2 pennies (english don't you know) worth.

First person shooters are too common these days. Even the big AAA titles are not as popular as they once were and in truth only HL2 and Halo 2 made any useful returns in that arena over the last year or so.

Gamers as a whole (not the hardcore but the casual who make up a lot of the market) are fed up with them. The plots are generally so weak that they fail to hold the attention. The latest umber graphics look samey. Weapons are copied between shooters with no thought for any practicality or balance. This is why halo restricting you to 2 weapons and limited ammo was so well recieved by the FPSW community (finally someone who realised that you can't carry 50 guns and have a believable character). Heck I was disappointed when in HL2, Mr Freeman could carry so many weapons at once!

The move in FPS now is towards better story and consistent plots. Part of that is having realistic physics and a guy that only carries two or maybe three weapons max before he falls over from the weight.

On a side note. I recently saw a comedy sketch on this very subject. The sketch involves a woman dressed in tomb raider style gear running down a non-descript hall and at each strut she finds a newer bigger weapon. However unlike the game, she doesn't have space pockets and is soon sweating and dragging herself down the corridor. She comes to a Rocket launcher and looks worried because she has to pick it up (analogy to the run over and collect we have in games). Anyhoo, she looks puppy eyed at the tv screen and grabs the launcher. straps it to her back and topples over. The camer pans to corridor and we hear every gun she had mis-fire with her screams and ouches and groans as a result! The great punchline is when we pan out to a guy on a sofa with a game control saying "I never get past that bit!"

#17 @Tim and Everyone

Negativity towards the FPS genre is superficial. You don't have to worry about having the UbErist graphics, and 23 hours of gameplay... Your only focus should be creating a game that is fun to play. Even if it looks kinda bad, if it plays well then thats all that matters.

You should all know by now that all you have to do is make a game that is fun. Take the 2005 IGF finalists for example. Gish, N, Alien Homminid were all 2D. N looks like crap. Gish looks like crap (better crap then N), Alien Homminid looks like crap. I could have scribbled the graphics for "N" in under a minute.

My point is that out of the best IGF games this year, none of htem had good graphics. None of them supported stencil shaows and normal mapping...

You should never focus on competing with the big boys... Take the freedom that you have (your only real advantage as indies) and make a super fun game... Even if it looks like crap, if it is fun it will sell. . .

If every one of us made an fps that was original and fun to play then all of them would sell, and thats the truth.

#18 @Chris Labombard

Amen...
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This thread has inadvertently turned into a good source of market research.

A lot of good points have been made and it's quite interesting to see other peoples viewpoints on this matter.

The way that we look at things, this is the first game we are making. We have minimal programming knowledge and the whole experience has been such a big learning curve.

We have chosen an fps as our first game cos
(1) We love to play them.
(2) It's seem's like the easiest place to start.
(3) Our dream is to make and complete our own game. That's it. If it has some form of financial success, and people enjoy playing it as much as we've enjoyed making it, then that would be a wonderful bonus. If not, no one can take away our accomplishment. We achieved what we set out to achieve. To make our own game, the way we wanted it to be.

Attached below, for your ammusement, is a little pic of what we like to do when we get frustrated. When that new piece of code you write just won't work or when that really cool looking resource just won't compile.

Stack up some AI units, arm yourself with the m16 with underbarrel grenade launcher and the rest writes itself...

#19 Thats hilarious... I hope youre using the ragdoll pack... It would make the experience ten times better.

#20 I think the problem is that very few FPS's have done anything innovative lately. Other than HL2 and Farcry. Tribes was hugely innovative in it's time with large open areas, jet packs, and large multiplayer matches. UT IMO has really dropped the ball since the original Unreal Tournament. I get bored by there demo's now. Bring something new and fun and you have a shot I think.