Minions of Mirth Technology Licensing
by Prairie Games · in Torque Game Engine · 04/24/2005 (1:29 am) · 61 replies
We're considering licensing the Minions of Mirth code for commercial use. I'm interested in getting some feedback on this...
Some points:
1. A Torque + Lighting Pack license would be necessary. How the packaging comes about is something to work through if/when we decide to do this...
2. This wouldn't be a manicured code pack. It's would be a tarball of a fully functioning game, warts and all. In other words, this would not be a "beginner's pack" and it wouldn't be small and contained... This is a system, it isn't meant to be sliced, diced, and cut into components.
3. The game and much of the supporting technology is written in the Python language. There are also significant modifications to Torque, some of these modifications could be labeled as "hacks"... others are downright inspired :)
4. There would be no direct support provided by me and very little documentation... This is consistent with "indie culture"... For instance, the Torque EULA doesn't provide any insurance of support. Nor do any code packs provided on this site. We cannot guarantee direct support... though, forums, bug trackers, etc are possible...
It would be my hope that some people would like to improve the tech, defend it, and help others understand it. This is beyond my control. If someone is indignant about not receiving direct support after agreeing to a EULA, this is also beyond my control.
5. Making a cool, original RPG, is a whole lotta work any way you cut it.
6. Minions of Mirth specific spells, characters, quests, items, etc would be included as examples, though could not be used in derivative works.
7. We would potentially do an "Early Adopter" release which would be before the game ships. "Early Adopters" would be entitled to code updates and would receive the shipping version of the game's code, once it's complete. Any "Early Adopter" licenses would be extremely low priority for us until MoM ships...
8. Windows and OSX builds, and packaging systems, would be included (the OSX build isn't currently together, though will be soon)...
9. The Master, World, and Zone Servers would be included... also, the Client and World Manager (for player's hosting their own worlds).
10. The game code supports single and multiplayer game modes. There's also database config/persistency stuff, server admin, quests, spell casting, zoning, integrated day/night cycles with weather, spawns, inventory, communication channels, simplified character animation system with material based clothing, etc... and so much more...
11. We would potentially be interested in contracting with someone to maintain the licensed code, document, cleanup some of the uglier stuff, etc
Alright, that's enough of that for now...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm curious what people think a license should cost?
I am 100% confident in the game and technology. What I am not confident in is this market. What percentage of people will look over the code for 2 minutes, decide that it either sucks or it really is a ton of work to make a RPG, and complain until we refunded them?
Other comments? Ideas?
Thanks,
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
Some points:
1. A Torque + Lighting Pack license would be necessary. How the packaging comes about is something to work through if/when we decide to do this...
2. This wouldn't be a manicured code pack. It's would be a tarball of a fully functioning game, warts and all. In other words, this would not be a "beginner's pack" and it wouldn't be small and contained... This is a system, it isn't meant to be sliced, diced, and cut into components.
3. The game and much of the supporting technology is written in the Python language. There are also significant modifications to Torque, some of these modifications could be labeled as "hacks"... others are downright inspired :)
4. There would be no direct support provided by me and very little documentation... This is consistent with "indie culture"... For instance, the Torque EULA doesn't provide any insurance of support. Nor do any code packs provided on this site. We cannot guarantee direct support... though, forums, bug trackers, etc are possible...
It would be my hope that some people would like to improve the tech, defend it, and help others understand it. This is beyond my control. If someone is indignant about not receiving direct support after agreeing to a EULA, this is also beyond my control.
5. Making a cool, original RPG, is a whole lotta work any way you cut it.
6. Minions of Mirth specific spells, characters, quests, items, etc would be included as examples, though could not be used in derivative works.
7. We would potentially do an "Early Adopter" release which would be before the game ships. "Early Adopters" would be entitled to code updates and would receive the shipping version of the game's code, once it's complete. Any "Early Adopter" licenses would be extremely low priority for us until MoM ships...
8. Windows and OSX builds, and packaging systems, would be included (the OSX build isn't currently together, though will be soon)...
9. The Master, World, and Zone Servers would be included... also, the Client and World Manager (for player's hosting their own worlds).
10. The game code supports single and multiplayer game modes. There's also database config/persistency stuff, server admin, quests, spell casting, zoning, integrated day/night cycles with weather, spawns, inventory, communication channels, simplified character animation system with material based clothing, etc... and so much more...
11. We would potentially be interested in contracting with someone to maintain the licensed code, document, cleanup some of the uglier stuff, etc
Alright, that's enough of that for now...
-----------------------------------------------------------------
I'm curious what people think a license should cost?
I am 100% confident in the game and technology. What I am not confident in is this market. What percentage of people will look over the code for 2 minutes, decide that it either sucks or it really is a ton of work to make a RPG, and complain until we refunded them?
Other comments? Ideas?
Thanks,
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#2
I also wouldn't mind doing number 11.
Python is no problem for me, I <3 (heart) Python.
At what you said about licensing costs, since you need a Torque and Lighting Pack ($150 together, correct?), I would say about $50-$125 (which I kinda think is still too cheap, ;) ).
At what you said about the "2 minute whiners" (the looking at the code for two minutes than complaining), everyone has about 10% of them in their customers/fans/community.
I think this would be much more popular if it was with TorqueSCRIPT (that is how I spell it) instead of Python, but no one gets what they want.
I can't think of anything else to say, heh.
Robert
04/24/2005 (1:51 am)
Number 10 is quite a few of the features I have been (trying) to implement, so I would be quite interested in this.I also wouldn't mind doing number 11.
Python is no problem for me, I <3 (heart) Python.
At what you said about licensing costs, since you need a Torque and Lighting Pack ($150 together, correct?), I would say about $50-$125 (which I kinda think is still too cheap, ;) ).
At what you said about the "2 minute whiners" (the looking at the code for two minutes than complaining), everyone has about 10% of them in their customers/fans/community.
I think this would be much more popular if it was with TorqueSCRIPT (that is how I spell it) instead of Python, but no one gets what they want.
I can't think of anything else to say, heh.
Robert
#3
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As for distribution model... yeah I can see how this is something that would be hard to pull one discreet piece out for sale.
I really think you should talk to GG's on distribution. Partner with them, get someone on board to help with support.. and maintaining the codebase.. This would also solve the "how do I verify someone has TGE and the Lighting pack" issue.
Later you could then work on breaking individual tech pieces out for seperate sale.
04/24/2005 (2:13 am)
Much of the python code is what runs the backend (unless Josh has made some design changes in the past year or so) -----
As for distribution model... yeah I can see how this is something that would be hard to pull one discreet piece out for sale.
I really think you should talk to GG's on distribution. Partner with them, get someone on board to help with support.. and maintaining the codebase.. This would also solve the "how do I verify someone has TGE and the Lighting pack" issue.
Later you could then work on breaking individual tech pieces out for seperate sale.
#4
I don't know that the system could/should ever be broken into components. There is a server hierarchy with protocols and hand offs, etc. The value is in it as a whole working system.
It would be a tremendous effort to take this from a tarball, to a nice documented engine like Torque. However, it *is* built on well documented and sturdy components. Torque, SQLite, Twisted, Python, etc..
This is a big pile of game that has taken thousands and thousands of hours to develop.... it works and it's real... (in fact, it takes 90+ minutes to just demo the features, much less explain/show what's beneath the hood)... the system will also be significantly better once we ship...
I'm not quite sure what I think about putting this in the hands of 100's of developers. Though, it's interesting to think about...
-Josh
04/24/2005 (2:45 am)
Python, C++, and TorqueScript all play important roles... I don't know that the system could/should ever be broken into components. There is a server hierarchy with protocols and hand offs, etc. The value is in it as a whole working system.
It would be a tremendous effort to take this from a tarball, to a nice documented engine like Torque. However, it *is* built on well documented and sturdy components. Torque, SQLite, Twisted, Python, etc..
This is a big pile of game that has taken thousands and thousands of hours to develop.... it works and it's real... (in fact, it takes 90+ minutes to just demo the features, much less explain/show what's beneath the hood)... the system will also be significantly better once we ship...
I'm not quite sure what I think about putting this in the hands of 100's of developers. Though, it's interesting to think about...
-Josh
#5
seriously a couple/few clicks and I had a server up!
04/24/2005 (3:11 am)
Lol after getting a MoM dedicated server up today I would easily say I would purchase this technology... its amazing lol... with a matter of a couple clicks I had a server up... no exageration! The hardest part was routing the ports from my router (just because my router setup is annoying)... lol... Major thumbs up on this Josh... seriously a couple/few clicks and I had a server up!
#6
04/24/2005 (3:25 am)
This would be interesting for me _because_ it comes with Python and the quest part seems to be based on it. Can't say anything on pricing though before I played it (and yes, I preordered it and encourage anyone to do so, too - mostly because such a project should be endorsed).
#7
04/24/2005 (3:52 am)
I would say that you should email Josh Williams directly with the idea, and see what he thinks about it! It is great tech, and it may make sense to tie it somehow (either loosely early on, or tightly later on) with the MMOG pack that David Dougher is leading. 
#8
But, discounting free MMO engines, there's not much in the market to compare it to. There are either Windows-centric engines like RealmCrafter (though once BlitzMac matures out of Beta, it may see a porting project in the future), but not a whole lot else.
I'm not really the target audience, though, as I would purchase it to learn and then pull tiny pieces for utilization rather than making use of a huge and beneficial core.
04/24/2005 (10:51 am)
~$500, and let them know exactly what they're getting and the level of support. The "high" pricetag will weed out a number of the peopole who will buy it and strangle themselves on any spaghetti portions of the code. Plus, it's a steal to anyone who is seriously looking at making a persistent world game. Also, at ~$500, I could easily justify a purchase to learn from what you guys have done. I don't want to make a huge multiplayer RPG (and I especially don't want to make the content for a huge MORPG), but I'd love to learn from it. Of course, the higher the price-tag, the more potential for complaints.But, discounting free MMO engines, there's not much in the market to compare it to. There are either Windows-centric engines like RealmCrafter (though once BlitzMac matures out of Beta, it may see a porting project in the future), but not a whole lot else.
I'm not really the target audience, though, as I would purchase it to learn and then pull tiny pieces for utilization rather than making use of a huge and beneficial core.
#9
Trying to sell something then not offer support almost never ever works. Even people who release things for free have trouble with people wanting support.
And to be frank, I would never pay money to license anything if I was told it was not supported.
04/24/2005 (11:22 am)
Quote:4. There would be zero support and very little documentation...
Trying to sell something then not offer support almost never ever works. Even people who release things for free have trouble with people wanting support.
And to be frank, I would never pay money to license anything if I was told it was not supported.
#10
04/24/2005 (11:31 am)
I like 3, seeing as I am trying to learn Python, and that is one more way I can apply it. I'll definatly buy it if it is in my price range, and you do decide to sell it.
#11
On support:
The Torque EULA doesn't provide any insurance of support. Nor do any code packs provided on this site. We cannot guarantee direct support... though, forums, bug trackers, etc are possible... this is consistent with "indie culture"...
It would be my hope that some people would like to improve the tech, defend it, and help others understand it. This is beyond my control. If someone is indignant about not receiving direct support after agreeing to a EULA, this is also beyond my control.
In many ways, a license of MoM's technology would be like licensing the Quake2 source code back in the day. Developers were given a zip file with some good tech, and some questionable tech, and basically told "good luck". I like to think this is a bit better as we are building off good, documented, solid technology like Torque.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
04/24/2005 (11:45 am)
@Everyone: Interesting stuff.. On support:
The Torque EULA doesn't provide any insurance of support. Nor do any code packs provided on this site. We cannot guarantee direct support... though, forums, bug trackers, etc are possible... this is consistent with "indie culture"...
It would be my hope that some people would like to improve the tech, defend it, and help others understand it. This is beyond my control. If someone is indignant about not receiving direct support after agreeing to a EULA, this is also beyond my control.
In many ways, a license of MoM's technology would be like licensing the Quake2 source code back in the day. Developers were given a zip file with some good tech, and some questionable tech, and basically told "good luck". I like to think this is a bit better as we are building off good, documented, solid technology like Torque.
-Josh Ritter
Prairie Games
#12
hahah (humor)
I don't know if your goal is to still sell the game then I would not give away the golden egg yet.
04/24/2005 (11:48 am)
How much you want me to make the check out for?hahah (humor)
I don't know if your goal is to still sell the game then I would not give away the golden egg yet.
#13
I do think its worth $500... though can say straight out as an indie team that $500 would be a struggle. My team still needs to get licenses for Photoshop and Max, those would come first and at a hefty price on those it would probably be very hard to pull $500 off
04/24/2005 (12:09 pm)
Josh... depending on the price I think that is more than acceptable... though I agree with David Blakes arguments, however $500 would be a struggle for me and my team so I would have to suggest a lower price... though maybe you can "screen" who you sell it toI do think its worth $500... though can say straight out as an indie team that $500 would be a struggle. My team still needs to get licenses for Photoshop and Max, those would come first and at a hefty price on those it would probably be very hard to pull $500 off
#14
Why would you want to buy licenses to photoshop and max?!
you should just use cheaper software, there are many greate software in a lower price
for example
Silo is a great poly/sub-D modeler it can handle all the models stuff and it cost $109
plus you have animation:master for renders and cut-sences cost $300
and Milkshape can do greate game animations cost $30
total cost in lower than $450
and 3D max cost a few $2000+ is Im not mistaken
and instead of photoshop you can get Paintshop Pro with Texture Maker with will cost
less than $200 last time I check, and PS alone cost $600+
04/24/2005 (12:24 pm)
@MatthewWhy would you want to buy licenses to photoshop and max?!
you should just use cheaper software, there are many greate software in a lower price
for example
Silo is a great poly/sub-D modeler it can handle all the models stuff and it cost $109
plus you have animation:master for renders and cut-sences cost $300
and Milkshape can do greate game animations cost $30
total cost in lower than $450
and 3D max cost a few $2000+ is Im not mistaken
and instead of photoshop you can get Paintshop Pro with Texture Maker with will cost
less than $200 last time I check, and PS alone cost $600+
#15
04/24/2005 (12:47 pm)
Well I do own Paint shop Pro and I can manipulate Blender fairly well... though Phoshop and Max are amazing industry professional tools (with features that really maximize game art creation, even if not required)... we are going for that quality down the road :)
#16
there are a lot of others professional tools with lower price tab, for example
XSI - $500 - can model animate and everything
Cinema4D XL - EUR 1723.28+ - can also do everything
Lightwave3D - less than $2000 - they used this one for doom 3
Those are all professional software that cost less than max
Top 5 software (random numbers, don't know which is better)
1. Maya
2. Max
3. XSI
4. Lightwave
5. Cinema
All proven themself in commercial games and movies.
Quality can be done with most softwares becuase it depend on the artist
not the software.
04/24/2005 (2:47 pm)
The fact that you want industry professional tools doesn't equal maxthere are a lot of others professional tools with lower price tab, for example
XSI - $500 - can model animate and everything
Cinema4D XL - EUR 1723.28+ - can also do everything
Lightwave3D - less than $2000 - they used this one for doom 3
Those are all professional software that cost less than max
Top 5 software (random numbers, don't know which is better)
1. Maya
2. Max
3. XSI
4. Lightwave
5. Cinema
All proven themself in commercial games and movies.
Quality can be done with most softwares becuase it depend on the artist
not the software.
#17
Max is my preference and though the quality is up to the artist and not the software the usability and extensibility is defined by the software...
feel free to start another thread to discuss a lot of this if you want :) I enjoy the conversation, though we should probably stop hijacking Josh Ritter's thread - sorry Josh
04/24/2005 (3:12 pm)
You have a lot of accurate points, though advantages that Max offers are very adequate for Games... in truth a lot of the tools are very good for Indies because they allow you to automate a lot of steps, like rigging, skinning, etc... In fact at GDC I caught the Max Demonstration at the ATI booth and my team got a chance to talk with the representative for a while afterwords, some very usefull things for Game Developers... on top of that the exporting from max to Torque is very adequate and stable :)Max is my preference and though the quality is up to the artist and not the software the usability and extensibility is defined by the software...
feel free to start another thread to discuss a lot of this if you want :) I enjoy the conversation, though we should probably stop hijacking Josh Ritter's thread - sorry Josh
#18
well last post about it here, I will open a thread about it later
Max is good and it's functions are probably great but
when it comes to pay a few thousand or work a little bit harder
I prefer to work harder, although I wouldn't mind a software
that does some things for me if I only had the cash :)
04/24/2005 (3:25 pm)
LOL hijacking :Pwell last post about it here, I will open a thread about it later
Max is good and it's functions are probably great but
when it comes to pay a few thousand or work a little bit harder
I prefer to work harder, although I wouldn't mind a software
that does some things for me if I only had the cash :)
#19
Then again justifying $500 is difficult when you a mortgage to pay, a car to run etc...!!
04/24/2005 (3:43 pm)
I think it's a great idea. I think $500 isn't unreasonable considering what you get. Even for indie developers. I mean, how many coffees, new games, computer upgrades, CDs and DVDs would you NOT have to buy to raise $500? If you're serious enough, then the cash could come from somewhere.Then again justifying $500 is difficult when you a mortgage to pay, a car to run etc...!!
#20
04/24/2005 (3:44 pm)
I agree... I think its easily worth $500, just realistically my team doesnt have $500 to spend on that and probably wouldn't for at least a little while :) 
Torque Owner Mark Berry
Good luck anyway.