Spyware hurting indies?

#1 Yes, I think it absolutely IS hurting everyone. Spyware + Viruses makes everyone VERY wary of trying out any program they get online.

I'm that way too - spyware found its way onto my machine at one point and crippled it. Had to do the same thing - spent eight hours of precious weekend time trying to get my machine back to normal.

One possible way to solve the problem is to have a trusted authority (committee?) issue some kind of certification that a program is "Spyware free." But that still doesn't stop a virally infected version of your demo doing damage - not unless we go to digitally signing our executables.

#2 It seems to me that he is stating that a *GG* demo contained spyware.... but I am almost certain this isn't the case.

#3 It'd be nice if you told us which game this was...

#4 Just make sure where your download link is that you make it crystal clear that there is no spyware or adware included with the demo nor will there be any hidden approvals buried in the EULA. Express your disgust with such practices and then give them the download link.

#5 No GG does not contain spyware. I didn't say that.

Sorry if it seemed I implied it.

I was trying to say that because of this event he wont download a demo from anywhere unless he knows the company (AKA sees it at best buy) So being that GG doesn't have any games on the selves at best buy (that I know of) so he is very wary (gun shy) of downloading anything from this site or any other.

I really see this as something that will be an "industry" problem. Hense the forum its posted in.

This event just brought me to post about a trend that I am seeing. Its the scare of SW *might* contain something so a person is unwilling to even look at a free demo. I could see this hurting the indie market. After all, most of us don't have our games on the best buy selves. So if you felt that a small company or unknown company can't be trusted, what can we do?

Gonzo's point is a very good one. Make sure your EULA is very clear that it contains no spy ware. Any other ideas?

#6 I think this is an important issue for both audiences that are tech savvy and those that are more easily made paranoid - ie. more casual game audiences.

Trust is a hard thing to build... but an easy thing to break.

A few ideas could revolve around a certified Spyware free (it gets dicey even with simple multiplayer games if it triggers a spyware detector/firewall by delivering data back to a server - not to get labeled as spyware).
EULA and Privacy policies links on download screens with top level trust issues clearly stated.
Not supporting any portals that might be tipping to far toward heavy handed marketing.

We talk about this issue internally alot at GG and I know even putting our newsletter subscription offer into the demo download pages was a big deal for us. As a marketer I want to connect with consumers and have them honestly opt-in to communication with us so we can keep those that want to be informed about our developer tools and games.

I've had experiences with some shareware type products like DivX, web delivery solutions like Wild Tangent and Real Networks or this new Zango Games advertising scheme that crossed personal lines I have big trouble with - like not being able to easily uninstall, include registry changes and adware delivery that I didn't intend to receive.

This issue is a big one and I don't think there are simple answers, but I'll say for GG its really important to build and keep our brand trust.

#7 Sorry I misread that Dan.

#8 David - not a problem. I should have worded it better to start with.

#9 For Windows XP users, the solution is simple, but you have to know about it, and most people are more aware of the threat of spyware than they are of this solution. Start -> Help -> System Restore -> Create Point, then install the game or app or whatever it is, and if you have any problems just go back to System Restore and go back to the point you just created, takes like 10 minutes. Pre-WinXP and you can use I believe "scanreg" at command line to accomplish the same thing.

The point that nobody has mentioned in terms of hurting indies is that computers riddled with spyware run far slower than they would without, and the user usually does something like download Yahoo toolbar with pop-up blocker to solve the problem instead of getting at the root. Well, with a computer running that much slower then trying to run a demo for one of our games which is naturally processor intensive, of course it's going to run poorly and not make a good impression.

#10 Fact 1. There will always be people who write spyware and viruses

fact 2. users are stupid and lazy bastards who will not take the time to learn their computer and install 4 simple programs that would prevent all the above.

fact 3. we will lose customers because of this, nothign we can do about it.

fact 4. Make more games, GG will become better known.

#11

Quote:
fact 2. ... 4 simple programs that would prevent all the above.

Once you run the .exe for an install its too late in some cases. No mater what 4 programs you are running. Unless you know of some spyware catcher or other program that do a pre-check on a install program and tell its going to really muck with your registry or other parts of your PC. If you know of one, please let me know.

In the case of the example I stated above, virus checker was running, spyware was run after (2 types) along with an attempt to do a restore. The PC still is being re-imaged because of issues.

#12 Spybot can be used to detect registry changes in advance and asks your permission before any program makes any changes. Its a pain, but its secure :)

#13 There are plenty of sites out there with free game downloads designed soley to get spyware on to PCs. It is definitely hurting indies, and discussing what users *should* do will not help the situation. It is largely a matter of reputation (after all, I'm not concerned when installing games from popcap [whether I should be is another arguement]).

#14 I use SpyBot too. If the install does registry changes - it will stop them.

Provided you don't press ' OK - allow this change' even after reading the warning message :-)

#15 Here's an interesting new twist:

Quote:Got a finished game, a game in development, or great idea for a new game? Enter the Zango PlayMakaz Contest and see if your game's got the moves to win a $50,000 game development contract.

Yes, this is a contest being sponsored by known Adware offender Zango, and one to be avoided.

#16 Please spread the word of this evil.

Yeah, there are going to be some sleazy (or naive) individuals who make submissions to the contest. Please note that several individuals have looked at the rules, and that according to the rules Zango can publish ANY game for what they deem to be a "fair price." So you may find your name and your game associated with Spyware for a measley fraction of the grand prize.

This garbage is gonna ruin independent gaming if it's not stopped.

#17 This kind of stuff would only ruin indie gaming if poeple start taking evangelical stands against it, thus effectively giving this stuff more weight than it deserves.

Luckily the majority of indie developers simply ignore these cheap attempts by ad companies to get free quality software and so they have little or no impact on actual indie dev.

I guess what I am saying is:

You neither have to enter the competition or get/download anything from Zango so why all the fuss? I know I've never even heard of them until this post. Upon investigating, I noticed that they make no secret about their installer containing adware.

I wouldn't enter this competition because of the clause Zango put in about the rights to the entries. I also wouldn't want to be associated with adware as most people don't like it. Equally I don't have any issues with those that do want to enter.

#18 I'm bumping this thread because I just experienced "Zango" on my kid's computer (which also happens to be the family game computer as well.) I went to play CoD2 and noticed the performance was horrible, even though a week earlier it was great. Found out the kids had downloaded "David vs. Goliath" from Zango (and I have to admit, for 8,9, and 11 year old kids, its a decent game). Using Spybot S&D, I tried to clean it, but it was still there. It has an uninstall option... but we'll see. It wasn't a *big* deal because this is just a game PC, nothing mission critical. But still annoying.

The bigger issue, and the reason I felt the need to bump, was the little Zango logo I saw in the system tray. Even though it had a gold background, the "stylized G" looked way to similar to GG's "G". I'd hate for an unfortunate association to be made by someone who doesn't know better. I don't know if there is anything that can be done, but I was shocked at the similarity.

Eric

#19 I just spent two days hunting down & killing the "Winfixer" adware trojan that somehow got installed on my machine.

It could have gotten installed via that Windows Metatag exploit that Microsoft just patched Thursday --- I don't recall installing any new software THAT recently.... except one indie's "Pinball" game demo which I *REALLY REALLY* hope wasn't infected (Norton didn't pick it up, at least).

It was enough to make ME, a Really Wired Guy who does Business on the Internet All The Time, want to unplug my systems from the rest of the world entirely. THAT was how frustrating it was. How many other people will have that same reaction and really do it, not being quite so 'connected' as me?

Any indie developer who seriously considers allowing their work to be funded by adware / spyware (NOT in-game ads... that's a whole different subject) should realize they are effectively cutting their own throats, sabotaging their future success, and helping cripple the entire industry.

#20 There are private companies who can check your software (sometime for a fee) and after it passes their tests, they will allow you to use their spyware-free certification logo. Seems like a good way to address the problem. Here's one right off of Yahoo! search -

www.icharter.org/certification/software/spyware_free/