The look of Torque games
by Joe Bestor · in Torque Game Engine · 09/24/2004 (11:11 pm) · 26 replies
I do not want to create any enemies, however...
I'm concerned with what my game would look like if I used this engine. The games advertised here seem to be lacking in graphics when compared to most games you find on the retail shelf.
There's at least four areas where a games graphics can be limited: artwork, engine limitations, all dev decisions (bug and performance issues, money, D3D/OpenGL, etc.,) and user hardware/software limitations. Feel free to contribute more.
I'd like to find out how much is limited by this engine. What's the resolution and color limits?
Looks like the shader engine will resolve some of the engine limitations but hasn't shader technology only been around for less than two years, what were the big game companies doing before that as their games have a superior look?
Thanks!
I'm concerned with what my game would look like if I used this engine. The games advertised here seem to be lacking in graphics when compared to most games you find on the retail shelf.
There's at least four areas where a games graphics can be limited: artwork, engine limitations, all dev decisions (bug and performance issues, money, D3D/OpenGL, etc.,) and user hardware/software limitations. Feel free to contribute more.
I'd like to find out how much is limited by this engine. What's the resolution and color limits?
Looks like the shader engine will resolve some of the engine limitations but hasn't shader technology only been around for less than two years, what were the big game companies doing before that as their games have a superior look?
Thanks!
#2
Keep in mind that when you license the engine you get the full source code. If you want to add some shiny new graphics effects, you're free to do so. You're not locked in to the "default torque look," by any means. It's all about how much effort you want to put in to it.
However, I can almost guarantee that modifying the Torque rendering code would take about 1/1000 of the time that writing your own engine from scratch would take. Writing your own engine from scratch is an enormous undertaking, and if you start from a good base, you'll have a much better chance of finishing.
EDIT: clarification
09/25/2004 (1:27 am)
I agree, I don't think the people who are really obsessed with graphics are the same people who buy indie games. Keep in mind that when you license the engine you get the full source code. If you want to add some shiny new graphics effects, you're free to do so. You're not locked in to the "default torque look," by any means. It's all about how much effort you want to put in to it.
However, I can almost guarantee that modifying the Torque rendering code would take about 1/1000 of the time that writing your own engine from scratch would take. Writing your own engine from scratch is an enormous undertaking, and if you start from a good base, you'll have a much better chance of finishing.
EDIT: clarification
#3
Bottom line, don't judge the engine just by what you've seen, but what you are capable of in working with it. I kow that's not really an answer, just my 2 cents :D
09/25/2004 (2:03 am)
Part of 'what your game will look like' also depends on what you put into it. Forgive me if I'm making an incorrect assuption, but many people think that if you have an engine that has all the cool new shader features and lighting fx, they'll automatically have a good looking game...not particularly so. You need to be able to bring out the potential of the tools you are using, plus the talent to deliver...that goes for anything from Torque to the Unreal 3 engine. Technical advances help (TSE), but so does your ability to make the most out of what you have...a couple of pixel shaded, normal-mapped rectagles are still a couple of rectangles.Bottom line, don't judge the engine just by what you've seen, but what you are capable of in working with it. I kow that's not really an answer, just my 2 cents :D
#4
Item - What limits that item
Arwork - your team
engine limitations - You will get the full source code so once again - your team
Dev decisions - Your team
User hardware/software - your customer.
So the end result is that 3 out of the 4 are in your hands when you use Torque. The last one is your target customer.
Another big plus of Torque is that you can your game easily ported to other OSes. 60% of all GG game sales are on the Mac. Consider that when you look at your customers.
End suggestion - Download the demo and play with it. If it looks like it might work, spend the 100 bucks to get the source. If it doesn't look like you can make it work then look elsewhere.
09/25/2004 (5:22 am)
Quote:
artwork, engine limitations, all dev decisions (bug and performance issues, money, D3D/OpenGL, etc.,) and user hardware/software limitations.
Item - What limits that item
Arwork - your team
engine limitations - You will get the full source code so once again - your team
Dev decisions - Your team
User hardware/software - your customer.
So the end result is that 3 out of the 4 are in your hands when you use Torque. The last one is your target customer.
Another big plus of Torque is that you can your game easily ported to other OSes. 60% of all GG game sales are on the Mac. Consider that when you look at your customers.
End suggestion - Download the demo and play with it. If it looks like it might work, spend the 100 bucks to get the source. If it doesn't look like you can make it work then look elsewhere.
#5
09/25/2004 (5:41 am)
Joe, brining up one of the poitns made in your post; you said that art was one of the limitations. From what I have seen across a few diferant engines, the art assets is what can seperate a game from having an 'indie' feel to having a 'retail' feel. What I am having to guess you are seeing/feeling, is that none of the projects released so far have had that 'retail' feeling to you; so you are feeling the engine is limited. Am I correct to assume this is how you are feeling? If this is the case, then the engine is only limited by the person behind the game. These are just my 2 
#6
Dont they have a tse demo? I thought that handled art very well.
That does say it all, "a game is what you make it".
09/25/2004 (6:38 am)
Humph! Art has always been scarce on this site, i think its because this site attracts, coders, more then artists.Dont they have a tse demo? I thought that handled art very well.
That does say it all, "a game is what you make it".
#7
What is it you are referrring to exactly? The quantity of art in the game? Special FX? The overall design? Ability to achive photorealism? What is it you are referring to as superior look?
09/25/2004 (7:32 am)
In order to give you a good answer you will need to give a better example of 'lacking in graphics'.What is it you are referrring to exactly? The quantity of art in the game? Special FX? The overall design? Ability to achive photorealism? What is it you are referring to as superior look?
#8
But I believe that you _CAN_ create some great looking stuff man, you gotta be creative, you must do your preproduction work. Make sure you think of all you can before you start working and even just a one man team can accomplish some great things. A real artist works with what he has, and creates a master peice. Work around you're limitations, go beyond needing the latest technology.
A great game isn't determined by it's graphics ability, or new shader technology. A good game is a game that someone enjoys _playing_ and not having to require a computer that is the latest and greatest and most expencive.
09/25/2004 (7:48 am)
TGE may not be DOOM3 or HalfLife 2, but if you had a team of Artists and Programmers with a large budget to pay them with, and lots of time and plenty of delay's then you have no excuse for not having a game that looks as good as DOOM3 or HL2. But I believe that you _CAN_ create some great looking stuff man, you gotta be creative, you must do your preproduction work. Make sure you think of all you can before you start working and even just a one man team can accomplish some great things. A real artist works with what he has, and creates a master peice. Work around you're limitations, go beyond needing the latest technology.
A great game isn't determined by it's graphics ability, or new shader technology. A good game is a game that someone enjoys _playing_ and not having to require a computer that is the latest and greatest and most expencive.
#9
I think Torque can beat most engines ,its only a matter of
use the Power of Torque.
Wait a while and i think some developers would amaze you what
can be done with Torque !!
We are not companies with over 40 employed developers.
Some of use are only 2 indies :):)
09/25/2004 (1:21 pm)
Maybe some of us haven't send up enough screenshots :)I think Torque can beat most engines ,its only a matter of
use the Power of Torque.
Wait a while and i think some developers would amaze you what
can be done with Torque !!
We are not companies with over 40 employed developers.
Some of use are only 2 indies :):)
#10
P. Andersson: I'm interested in creating demo material to land a game programming job. So the closer my demo is to retail shelf quality probably the better.
Shadow Wolf: Yes that is what I'm seeing/feeling. However, I've seen Art Institute students create original artwork for Unreal mods that keep the Unreal look/feel.
Ace: It would make sense if most of these games did not have a graphic artist doing the artwork.
J. Maruschak: The graphics do not show much detail, some look really washed out, and just an overall unpolished look IMHO. Perhaps as D. Hitchcock hit upon, it's more effort that is limited than by the engine features.
B. Sce: I like most of the screenshots for Synapse Gaming: Lighting Code Pack for TGE Version 1.1.5.
09/25/2004 (4:00 pm)
Thanks for the responses.P. Andersson: I'm interested in creating demo material to land a game programming job. So the closer my demo is to retail shelf quality probably the better.
Shadow Wolf: Yes that is what I'm seeing/feeling. However, I've seen Art Institute students create original artwork for Unreal mods that keep the Unreal look/feel.
Ace: It would make sense if most of these games did not have a graphic artist doing the artwork.
J. Maruschak: The graphics do not show much detail, some look really washed out, and just an overall unpolished look IMHO. Perhaps as D. Hitchcock hit upon, it's more effort that is limited than by the engine features.
B. Sce: I like most of the screenshots for Synapse Gaming: Lighting Code Pack for TGE Version 1.1.5.
#11
I suppose that all depends on your defintion of unpolished and yoru frame of reference. It is my opinion that our game does not look washed out. We went out of the way to make colors bold and use a pleasing color pallette. Note that with our game, ThinkTanks, all of the textures could fit into the same space (on disc and in memory) as one UT character. We did this to keep the download size small.
We tried to make the game as polished as possible given the resources we had and with an eye to our target audience.
Now, with an eye toward sophistication of graphics, as opposed to sophistication in graphics technology.. I have gotten many comments from aritsts (both game industry friends of mine and from fine artists) about the design direction we took and many liked what they saw.
I personally am a little tired of the normal 'look' you see in video games (doom3) and this is one of the many reasons I have gone independent. I know that many of my firends in the industry tend to feel the same way.
If your goal is to impress someone at a game company.. it may not be a good thing to aspire to the same old look that many of those in the industry have grown tired of.
09/25/2004 (4:46 pm)
@JoeI suppose that all depends on your defintion of unpolished and yoru frame of reference. It is my opinion that our game does not look washed out. We went out of the way to make colors bold and use a pleasing color pallette. Note that with our game, ThinkTanks, all of the textures could fit into the same space (on disc and in memory) as one UT character. We did this to keep the download size small.
We tried to make the game as polished as possible given the resources we had and with an eye to our target audience.
Now, with an eye toward sophistication of graphics, as opposed to sophistication in graphics technology.. I have gotten many comments from aritsts (both game industry friends of mine and from fine artists) about the design direction we took and many liked what they saw.
I personally am a little tired of the normal 'look' you see in video games (doom3) and this is one of the many reasons I have gone independent. I know that many of my firends in the industry tend to feel the same way.
If your goal is to impress someone at a game company.. it may not be a good thing to aspire to the same old look that many of those in the industry have grown tired of.
#12
The engine isn't limited at all like you think, those are all purely art based assumptions. A guy who knows what he's doing with an artistic point of view and create amazing looking things in Torque, the limitation isn't the engine at all, it's the capacity of your artistic capabilities. I've seen incredible looking things come out of Torque that made me say "What engine is that" only to be shocked, and I've also seen just as much if not more ugly things come out. It's the way of the game.
The engine isn't limited, and if you need examples, I'm sure I can find some of my own or others.
Good luck! :-)
09/25/2004 (6:11 pm)
I sat down and tried to write this, but it kept coming out the same way, so I'll just be blunt.The engine isn't limited at all like you think, those are all purely art based assumptions. A guy who knows what he's doing with an artistic point of view and create amazing looking things in Torque, the limitation isn't the engine at all, it's the capacity of your artistic capabilities. I've seen incredible looking things come out of Torque that made me say "What engine is that" only to be shocked, and I've also seen just as much if not more ugly things come out. It's the way of the game.
The engine isn't limited, and if you need examples, I'm sure I can find some of my own or others.
Good luck! :-)
#13
A. Artist doing the dts end of things
B. Artist (level designer) doing the dif end of things.
There is no 'drag and drop' when it comes to this. I've seen some pretty amazing examples of dif interiors in snapshots and forum posts that are well up to par in terms of having a cutting edge look.
Realize that you're talking about a tremendous amount of work on the human side, not the engine side. The lighting pack that John Kabus released is a very good example. You can do some pretty amazing stuff with lighting using that pack - and lighting can be half the look of a game. But in order to tweak it to the nines, you are going to have to spend HOURS placing lights, trying colors, previewing it in-game, going back, replacing lights, changing colors, brightness, angles, etc, etc, etc.
This is not indigenous to Torque. This is how you make an FPS (or similar game) that is absolutely immersively atmospheric. It's a long, talented process with no shortcuts provided by any engine.
Sure, you can argue certain points, such as curves, radiosity, etc. But take 90% of the assets developed for torque that you don't like the look of, port them over to, say - quake 3 - and drop them in. They're going to look very similar. You won't like them there, either.
Long term, like everyone else, we want to develop an FPS - but we're holding off, as the artistic end of it is a MAJOR undertaking that we're nowhere near ready for.
Just my 2 cents.
09/26/2004 (11:02 am)
IMO, Torque is not a limitation re: the look of a game. The limitation is going to come down to two areas:A. Artist doing the dts end of things
B. Artist (level designer) doing the dif end of things.
There is no 'drag and drop' when it comes to this. I've seen some pretty amazing examples of dif interiors in snapshots and forum posts that are well up to par in terms of having a cutting edge look.
Realize that you're talking about a tremendous amount of work on the human side, not the engine side. The lighting pack that John Kabus released is a very good example. You can do some pretty amazing stuff with lighting using that pack - and lighting can be half the look of a game. But in order to tweak it to the nines, you are going to have to spend HOURS placing lights, trying colors, previewing it in-game, going back, replacing lights, changing colors, brightness, angles, etc, etc, etc.
This is not indigenous to Torque. This is how you make an FPS (or similar game) that is absolutely immersively atmospheric. It's a long, talented process with no shortcuts provided by any engine.
Sure, you can argue certain points, such as curves, radiosity, etc. But take 90% of the assets developed for torque that you don't like the look of, port them over to, say - quake 3 - and drop them in. They're going to look very similar. You won't like them there, either.
Long term, like everyone else, we want to develop an FPS - but we're holding off, as the artistic end of it is a MAJOR undertaking that we're nowhere near ready for.
Just my 2 cents.
#14
I know many projects that look really professional. It all depends on your preferences.
09/26/2004 (12:25 pm)
@Joe Bestor: If you think most projects look the same, or that the engine is at the limit; then please visit the screenshot section, and if you want; also check out Timothy Aste's plan, he's got some freaking good screenshots there.I know many projects that look really professional. It all depends on your preferences.
#15
(the plan Stefan mentioned)
09/26/2004 (12:58 pm)
www.garagegames.com/index.php?sec=mg&mod=resource&page=view&qid=6258(the plan Stefan mentioned)
#16
T. Aste: Saw your .plan...I'd buy the packs. How about character packs?
Thanks to all for the civil responses, I'm learning so I had to ask.
09/26/2004 (1:11 pm)
J. Maruschak: Interesting, I'm tired of playing FPS games but not the "look" you refer too.T. Aste: Saw your .plan...I'd buy the packs. How about character packs?
Thanks to all for the civil responses, I'm learning so I had to ask.
#17
Re Joe Bestor: Maybe in time, I actually finished the packs in July but shortly after I was recruited by GarageGames and work there pretty much full-time and then some working on top secret projects for world domination and very very cool upcoming things so that put huge stop on the pack.
The packs are going to be released real soon, we actually have a date set for it's release but I don't want to violate any NDA's by posting this and piss off those marketting guys because they control the access to the doorway for us people without keys and it can get ugly.
Re character packs, Joe Maruschak & Bravetree Productions has a character Content Pack (the Jill Pack) coming out soon and from what I've seen so far it kicks major butt. :-)
09/26/2004 (1:52 pm)
Re: Screenshots, I wish I could show you guys the TSE stuff going down here at GG, it's really cool. :-)Re Joe Bestor: Maybe in time, I actually finished the packs in July but shortly after I was recruited by GarageGames and work there pretty much full-time and then some working on top secret projects for world domination and very very cool upcoming things so that put huge stop on the pack.
The packs are going to be released real soon, we actually have a date set for it's release but I don't want to violate any NDA's by posting this and piss off those marketting guys because they control the access to the doorway for us people without keys and it can get ugly.
Re character packs, Joe Maruschak & Bravetree Productions has a character Content Pack (the Jill Pack) coming out soon and from what I've seen so far it kicks major butt. :-)
#18
Just thought I'd throw that in !
Mic
09/26/2004 (11:33 pm)
Just a quick point ... wasn't the Torque engine used to power both Tribes and Tribes 2 ... both huge commercial games that have since created a huge community following. Just thought I'd throw that in !
Mic
#19
09/27/2004 (6:01 am)
I'm glad that Timothy Aste posted in this topic, as I was going to link out to the amazing work he's done. But you've already seen it!
#20
In addition to TSE you might want to check out the lighting pack from Synapse Gaming which adds some notable improvements to TGE. Lighting is one of the most critical aspects to game display. This is what really makes a game feel 3 dimensional. In addition the lighting pack seems to considerably improve many textures.
I would also echo that you should download the engine and try importing your artwork to compare what it looks like. Look at it with the lighting pack demo as well. Play around with the settings. (They will need to change when using the lighting pack) Then try it in other engines you may be considering and see how it goes. Take screenshots and compare them side by side. Feel free to post your results here if you want to give us a look at what you are talking about.
Keep in mind that many of us in this community have settled on the Torque because it is more than just another fancy graphics engine. For example, it is a kick-butt, award winning multi-player action network gaming platform. Simply put, it delivers more action for more players using less bandwidth than any other comparable engine I have tested. (let the flame wars begin. I think I have some tinfoil...) For many projects this is a make or break feature. It also handles true outdoor rendering, native vehicle support, etc. etc.
09/27/2004 (8:24 am)
Interesting question Joe. It seems a little ambiguous - am I correct in suspecting you can't quite put your finger on what you feel is lacking? Or have you been able to define it? I'll try throwing out a couple ideas in case it helps.In addition to TSE you might want to check out the lighting pack from Synapse Gaming which adds some notable improvements to TGE. Lighting is one of the most critical aspects to game display. This is what really makes a game feel 3 dimensional. In addition the lighting pack seems to considerably improve many textures.
I would also echo that you should download the engine and try importing your artwork to compare what it looks like. Look at it with the lighting pack demo as well. Play around with the settings. (They will need to change when using the lighting pack) Then try it in other engines you may be considering and see how it goes. Take screenshots and compare them side by side. Feel free to post your results here if you want to give us a look at what you are talking about.
Keep in mind that many of us in this community have settled on the Torque because it is more than just another fancy graphics engine. For example, it is a kick-butt, award winning multi-player action network gaming platform. Simply put, it delivers more action for more players using less bandwidth than any other comparable engine I have tested. (let the flame wars begin. I think I have some tinfoil...) For many projects this is a make or break feature. It also handles true outdoor rendering, native vehicle support, etc. etc.
Torque Owner Peter Andersson
Chances are that's not your market. You really should compare with other games within the market you're targeting.