Tribes 2 Single Player ON-Line RPG
by Jeff Tunnell · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 02/19/2001 (9:23 am) · 6 replies
This post is from the old GarageGames site by Luc.
Hi, guys! I have loved Tribes for quite some time now, love the work u guys did on it. I hope you guys have a great time at Garagegames. From what I can tell, it's the *PERFECT*, the *IDEAL* environment for creating games. U guys are going to rock.
Game ideas . . .
The Tribes 2 Engine looks fit to kick ass. But the great thing is that the LOOK is so insanely easy to modify! I mean, buildings can come and go, but the TERRAIN is the huge thing. It's just frickin incredible.
One thing, though. I would LOVE to see a modified Tribes 2 engine that handled vertical cliffs well. Hear me out on this! My idea is that, instead of trying to map the texture to the wall from a different direction, the engine adds in prefab peices of rock/rock walls.
Hmm. This is a LOT harder to describe in words than if I envision it in my head. Okay, more basic still.
The engine creates rock OBJECTS to lay over any parts of the terrain with a slope steeper than x. That way we avoid the annoying blurred textures, allow cool and more realistic cliffs, AND -- importantly -- completely change the look of the terrain.
Also, I have been WISHING that you guys could take a gander at how easy the Thief 2 object system is to use, how incredibly organized . . oh, but it's just hard to import objects, hard to do all of the things that Tribes does well. But for OBJECT modification, the ability to just add ANY property to ANY object is absolutely mindblowing.
Other things -- I'm sure you guys realize that the Tribes 2 engine is the future of Role Playing Games? The RPG industry needs a goddamn BOMB dropped on it to shake it up. Asherons call and EQ are the same old stale paper-fighting-on-a-monitor type of RPGs. You don't LIVE IT unless you're performing all of the actions.
The reason that RPGs don't have the person themselves perform a lot of the action (i.e. they don't aim the arrows, they don't time the sword-blows, etc.) is because RPGs are a direct port from paper D&D, where it was hard to devise a way of determining who was the better fighter. So you come up witha skills system; some people can just plain do things better than other people.
I say, THAT SUCKS ASS! Now you don't have to roll dice. You can go and DO IT ALL. Thief 2 is about as far from the Tribes 2 creations as possible, but it had the right idea with lockpicking.
As for gameplay: it should be very story-centric for single-player, but in a REAL-WORLD way. You deal with things like jumping over fences, accidentally jumping from heights, not being able to see around a corner because of Line Of Site, missing a shot with your arrow because you accidentally let go of the string too soon. (Oh, and Thief 2 also had the right idea with swordplay and bows/arrows).
Tribes 2 engine allows huge, beautifully detailed worlds of astonishing complexity. The building interiors for Tribes 2 are complex and quite pretty in their textures and internal design, but don't drain the system -- in fact, inside the buildings frame rates are as high as 80-90 fps. Not to mention that if your bots don't have to maneuver in the 3rd dimension (or at least most don't), as they don't in an RPG, you can have a LOT more of them wandering around.
And multiplayer should DEFINITELY follow a completely new model! MAPS SHOULD CHANGE! The idea is that each map should revolve around a story. Don't think of multiplayer RPGs as a neverending tale. Think of them as episodes and scenarios. There is a story-based setup to each map, and things happen during the map to re-enforce the idea that this is all a occuring for real -- the weather changes, storm fronts move in, invading armies of bots attack, raiders hit at a certain time, a mystic portal opens -- the point is that SOME things happen during this map that happen every time it is played. It's like a crucial moment in history is captured, a Waterloo or a Pearl Harbor, and it can be replayed and it could go either way. In some maps, everyone is on the same team, with ultra-powerful bot enemies (allows them to pose a threat while allowing us to use only 5 or 6 :)) -- other times, everyone might be fighting for magical objects, and the persons with them at the end of the map are winners -- but those who pledged allegience to them also get points for choosing the right alliances, in that their skills are improved.
These are all ideas. The Tribalwar RPG forum is full of really good ideas and really shitty ideas -- but, hey, they-re ideas!
Hi, guys! I have loved Tribes for quite some time now, love the work u guys did on it. I hope you guys have a great time at Garagegames. From what I can tell, it's the *PERFECT*, the *IDEAL* environment for creating games. U guys are going to rock.
Game ideas . . .
The Tribes 2 Engine looks fit to kick ass. But the great thing is that the LOOK is so insanely easy to modify! I mean, buildings can come and go, but the TERRAIN is the huge thing. It's just frickin incredible.
One thing, though. I would LOVE to see a modified Tribes 2 engine that handled vertical cliffs well. Hear me out on this! My idea is that, instead of trying to map the texture to the wall from a different direction, the engine adds in prefab peices of rock/rock walls.
Hmm. This is a LOT harder to describe in words than if I envision it in my head. Okay, more basic still.
The engine creates rock OBJECTS to lay over any parts of the terrain with a slope steeper than x. That way we avoid the annoying blurred textures, allow cool and more realistic cliffs, AND -- importantly -- completely change the look of the terrain.
Also, I have been WISHING that you guys could take a gander at how easy the Thief 2 object system is to use, how incredibly organized . . oh, but it's just hard to import objects, hard to do all of the things that Tribes does well. But for OBJECT modification, the ability to just add ANY property to ANY object is absolutely mindblowing.
Other things -- I'm sure you guys realize that the Tribes 2 engine is the future of Role Playing Games? The RPG industry needs a goddamn BOMB dropped on it to shake it up. Asherons call and EQ are the same old stale paper-fighting-on-a-monitor type of RPGs. You don't LIVE IT unless you're performing all of the actions.
The reason that RPGs don't have the person themselves perform a lot of the action (i.e. they don't aim the arrows, they don't time the sword-blows, etc.) is because RPGs are a direct port from paper D&D, where it was hard to devise a way of determining who was the better fighter. So you come up witha skills system; some people can just plain do things better than other people.
I say, THAT SUCKS ASS! Now you don't have to roll dice. You can go and DO IT ALL. Thief 2 is about as far from the Tribes 2 creations as possible, but it had the right idea with lockpicking.
As for gameplay: it should be very story-centric for single-player, but in a REAL-WORLD way. You deal with things like jumping over fences, accidentally jumping from heights, not being able to see around a corner because of Line Of Site, missing a shot with your arrow because you accidentally let go of the string too soon. (Oh, and Thief 2 also had the right idea with swordplay and bows/arrows).
Tribes 2 engine allows huge, beautifully detailed worlds of astonishing complexity. The building interiors for Tribes 2 are complex and quite pretty in their textures and internal design, but don't drain the system -- in fact, inside the buildings frame rates are as high as 80-90 fps. Not to mention that if your bots don't have to maneuver in the 3rd dimension (or at least most don't), as they don't in an RPG, you can have a LOT more of them wandering around.
And multiplayer should DEFINITELY follow a completely new model! MAPS SHOULD CHANGE! The idea is that each map should revolve around a story. Don't think of multiplayer RPGs as a neverending tale. Think of them as episodes and scenarios. There is a story-based setup to each map, and things happen during the map to re-enforce the idea that this is all a occuring for real -- the weather changes, storm fronts move in, invading armies of bots attack, raiders hit at a certain time, a mystic portal opens -- the point is that SOME things happen during this map that happen every time it is played. It's like a crucial moment in history is captured, a Waterloo or a Pearl Harbor, and it can be replayed and it could go either way. In some maps, everyone is on the same team, with ultra-powerful bot enemies (allows them to pose a threat while allowing us to use only 5 or 6 :)) -- other times, everyone might be fighting for magical objects, and the persons with them at the end of the map are winners -- but those who pledged allegience to them also get points for choosing the right alliances, in that their skills are improved.
These are all ideas. The Tribalwar RPG forum is full of really good ideas and really shitty ideas -- but, hey, they-re ideas!
About the author
#2
The main problem will be how do you get all the players on team to cooperate? Most of us are all too familar with the problem of getting people to act on the same plan (need I say CTF Quake/Unreal, yes even Tribes1?). Smaller Team based games works reasonably well (Starcraft, TA, etc.) but the larger the team the greater confusion and lack of control.
03/16/2001 (11:58 am)
Quote:In Tribes 2 we can already start seeing strategies emerging with the use of three armors and 6 vehicles. What if we gave them the variety of vehicles and units we see in a RTS? The planning and variety would be astounding. Vehicles that exist only for specific types of support like the Science Vessel from Starcraft.
The main problem will be how do you get all the players on team to cooperate? Most of us are all too familar with the problem of getting people to act on the same plan (need I say CTF Quake/Unreal, yes even Tribes1?). Smaller Team based games works reasonably well (Starcraft, TA, etc.) but the larger the team the greater confusion and lack of control.
#3
For example, I admire recent "Fallout Tactics" - yes, you can play as "lone wolf" if you wish, but if there are more than five teams on the map, you'll find that it is rather hard to survive alone.
If any of you guys have played the multiplayer demo online, you must have seen how easily new clans emerged.
Its all about good old surviving.
03/19/2001 (6:20 am)
Cooperating? It IS and IS NOT as hard as it sounds. Simply, most of the games you mentioned (Quake/CS/Unreal) are based on SINGLE player systems. But if game world and system would be made keeping in mind teamwork, I think it would be much easier to "force" players cooperate.For example, I admire recent "Fallout Tactics" - yes, you can play as "lone wolf" if you wish, but if there are more than five teams on the map, you'll find that it is rather hard to survive alone.
If any of you guys have played the multiplayer demo online, you must have seen how easily new clans emerged.
Its all about good old surviving.
#4
03/19/2001 (12:33 pm)
Well I've downloaded FallOut Tactics but yet to play it. I think multiplayer cooperation is easy when each team is small (I know cuz I've done it) but when you get 10,15, or more guys on the same team the situation breaks down. Partly I think because people are still locked into the deathmatch mentality (respawning makes it worse) but also because there hasn't been a successful answer to team communication. Typing chat messages is ok but in the midst of a fire fight it isn't easy. Roger Wilco and similar products work better but soundcard incompatiblities, etc. produces unreliability. Direct Voice might be an alternative. It's just been my experience that poor team communication is the single greatest barrier to truely large cooperative online games.
#5
you commanded your team simply pointing a memeber in interface and then ordering it to check right or left side - run into or infiltrate silently.
I think, such a system, if properly worked out, could be used also in multiplayer. The simpliest thing - when commander (or maybe each memeber has such an interface panel)clicks right, teammate sees green arrow to the right. it means - go right. If commander wants to draw attention to some specific side (for example - he saw sniper in the window to the right) he/she makes you see red arrow to the right.
It can work also for covering and other commands.
I think that gamers mostly want to feel the real life atmosphere and they are ready to subordinate - if system is worked out good they would accept the rules.
03/19/2001 (11:42 pm)
Talking about communication - do you remember SWAT games?you commanded your team simply pointing a memeber in interface and then ordering it to check right or left side - run into or infiltrate silently.
I think, such a system, if properly worked out, could be used also in multiplayer. The simpliest thing - when commander (or maybe each memeber has such an interface panel)clicks right, teammate sees green arrow to the right. it means - go right. If commander wants to draw attention to some specific side (for example - he saw sniper in the window to the right) he/she makes you see red arrow to the right.
It can work also for covering and other commands.
I think that gamers mostly want to feel the real life atmosphere and they are ready to subordinate - if system is worked out good they would accept the rules.
#6
Hmm... it seems a lot of people haven't realized that the Tribalwar RPG forum was the Tribes RPG TC's community center. It was the most active forum on Tribalwar second to General Discussion.
Yet most people didn't realize that the people in there were discussing existing and potential features for the TRPG TC, and not ideas for a possible RPG's for Tribes. The forum has since then moved to www.planetstarsiege.com/rpg, where it was able to expand due to the amount of traffic.
A fantasy RPG for Tribes 2 is in planning, based on the one already available for Tribes 1. Porting code will mostly be a syntax deal. And also, since V12 is essentially T2, and if this Tribes 2 RPG is successful (I wouldn't doubt it), it will be ported over to V12.
03/22/2001 (2:02 pm)
Quote:The Tribalwar RPG forum is full of really good ideas and really shitty ideas -- but, hey, they-re ideas!
Hmm... it seems a lot of people haven't realized that the Tribalwar RPG forum was the Tribes RPG TC's community center. It was the most active forum on Tribalwar second to General Discussion.
Yet most people didn't realize that the people in there were discussing existing and potential features for the TRPG TC, and not ideas for a possible RPG's for Tribes. The forum has since then moved to www.planetstarsiege.com/rpg, where it was able to expand due to the amount of traffic.
A fantasy RPG for Tribes 2 is in planning, based on the one already available for Tribes 1. Porting code will mostly be a syntax deal. And also, since V12 is essentially T2, and if this Tribes 2 RPG is successful (I wouldn't doubt it), it will be ported over to V12.
Torque Owner Jeff Tunnell
It is obvious that the programmers here have tremendous skill with the FPS genre. Tribes was, and Tribes 2 will be a breath of fresh air, but in general the days of FPS grow short thanks to the rampant clones out there trying to be the next Doom.
What I believe is that FPS must be hybridized.
From where I sit, HALO is a step towards this goal, but I feel it can be taken much farther.
I see a RTS where every unit is controlled by a player in FPS view. Something with the depth, variety and strategy of games like Dune II and Starcraft, but with intense, unpredictable action.
An army which suffers the chaos and problems that happen in real life.
What will make this great is that the two genres give so much to each other.
In Starcraft you know that if you attack X with Y you'll win and suffer Z damage. If each player was controlled by a human there'd be no way to predict it, only generalizations.
In Tribes 2 we can already start seeing strategies emerging with the use of three armors and 6 vehicles. What if we gave them the variety of vehicles and units we see in a RTS? The planning and variety would be astounding. Vehicles that exist only for specific types of support like the Science Vessel from Starcraft.
I know this would be a massive project, but I think Tribes 2 has developed an engine that can handle most of what I mentioned.
It'd be nice to give this a massive, maybe even multi-world system where conflicts don't merely last an hour or two, but where destoying an enemy outpost has real effects on supply routes and each team is made up of hundreds, if not thousands of players in differing sectors; but I don't think the average server is nearly up to keeping track of all that.
Well, that's just my cent. (I orginally had two, but I'm Canadian and they rounded down in the conversion)