GarageGames Gold Membership

#1 Hi Joshua,

I've recently talked with GG about releasing the enhancements that I've made to TGE as content packs. I see where you going with this and why (support and such). Although I do think this is an interesting idea I would be concerned that a one-time fee would be too steep for a team that only is looking for one or two resources. I think that content packs are cool because they let each team create their own unique TGE.

Hope this helps...

John.

#2 Code content packs are much more hairy than art ones... what do these consist of? patches?

I recently applied my day/night cycle patch to the HEAD... The day/night stuff is an example of hacking all over the place... I was expecting some failures... there wasn't one... it compiled and ran fine. The only thing that needs updating is to take the specular water enhancement into account.. (I already coded it to use a set time, which isn't in the patch I gave away, etc) ... There are also improvements that I did to it which are on ActionRPG but not in the patch... I cannot take the time to repackage everything I do whan I have a better version and redistribute it...

I am sure that the Day/Night cycles I (quickly) coded are better than many commercial game implementations out there... as a hack it doesn't belong in the Torque HEAD *ahem*... I am using it with good results... at the very least it's an example of where to start...

TGERad is a working radiosity solution that could use some optimizaion/pipeline improvements... Though, I don't really believe in furthering it's development because my eye is on a GPL Q3Map.

I started TGEWorkstation and had to abandon it... I didn't have faith and it's not something I really want to be doing fulltime... Collaboration would HELP! Perhaps a commerce system here that works would change this? In fact, I believe this work may have been wiped in a format :| oops... I know what needs to happen at least... and it's mainly PyTorque anyway! :)

TGEPython and PyTorque are awesome, for game and TOOL development... I need to work with others on getting PyTorque compiled on Mac/Linux... Blender Support is in the works... I have some really great 3d MUD tech (I need help with this )... etc etc...

Perhaps my entire code tree is useful?

I don't believe I want to spit everything out and (try to) support it for the community at large... some stuff sure, but not all stuff... If I can pay a grocery bill while helping others make their games, this would be GREAT.

-J

#3 This could be a good idea, but it all depends on numbers. How many resources have we seen so far that could actually be considered gold resources? Maybe 5 or 6, i don't think more than that.
I do not doubt that this idea would encourage developers to polish up and submit their own stuff, but the point is that if people pay for something, they WANT it to be bug-free and working, and possibly they'll want some tech support for it. Again, i don't think that we would have many resources like this, and i wouldn't pay $200 to access say 20 resources, 15 of which i don't even need.
Maybe a per-resource fee would be better, but then it wouldn't be much different from content-packs.
Status tags such as "Contributor" and contributor forums are something i would like to see tho

#4 I agree Joshua. A gold member repository would definately benifit the coders, profit wise, and the GG members also. Having access to more advanced scripts, coding, etc would definately be something i would be intrested in, especially because I know very little about coding. I would support it because i dont have acces to a programer, and that would allow me to get the things i need with trying to learn a language all the way through. heck, Id pay well for it.

#5 The code that the packs will be based on is already extremely modular (with only one or two exceptions). Although I can see future heads causing a problem I don't think it will be frequent or catastrophic. You can see my plans for details (on the enhancements); do ignore the developer art though.

#6 Looking good...

That's an example of something I can't currently use for our game... but, as a Gold Developer I would benefit from having it in the repository as many, many people would... that is, if this route existed and you decided to go with it...

So, how to split income in a way that worked better than the former soviet union? :)

-J

#7 I wonder how many people out there have the money to spend on something like this? It would seem that most couldn't afford to pay, even if it would save them a lot of time and trouble.

It's easy for people to say, "I'd pay $XX for that feature!", but when it comes time to pay the Piper... (good analogy) ;-)

At any rate, I do see benefits to commercializing some things. Cash can be great motivation to do or finish a project.

I'm just trying to "keep it real". lol

-Eric F

#8 "It's easy for people to say, "I'd pay $XX for that feature!", but when it comes time to pay the Piper... (good analogy) ;-)"

A good thing about a flat rate is that you aren't paying $XX for a a specific feature... as an independent developer who can't hold everyone's hand using something I create... I'd really appreciate this :)

To potentional complainer: "Hey, it's a gold resource... it's been accepted as a gold resource which means it works... or at least works with this tag of Torque... $200 is the cost of a PS/2 or XBox... or 3-6 PC/Xbox/PS2 Games... I can help with good technology... I can't help with you or your teams priorities. Hey! Look at all those other resources you got too!!!"

#9 I can certainly see a use for this. :-)

Or, what about each content pack author offering a "Gold Level Support" option? $15 for the no-support or forums-only support, and $50 for e-mail (or whatever)?

I've run into some of the support issues you mentioned with a couple of my own resources. It's surprising the amount of support asked for a free item. :-) I can only feel for devs of more complex ones, such as yours (Joshua) or Melv's!

-Eric F

#10 This wouldn't be a terrible amount of work to setup... but it would be work...

There would have to be some good resources to populate it from day 1.... basically, the ball would have to start rolling with "Gold Developers" and a CVS... this CVS would contain code, tools, and art assets...

The Torque license excludes using Torque outside of making a game. From some of Jeff's posts, I am guessing that exceptions will be made... any specifics of this would be interesting... such as, could such tools/tech using Torque code be sold just anywhere?

I license an engine I wrote at least 2x a year for $10k a pop... I have some idea on how this stuff works... I am not in a position to develop, sell, and support my work for the Garage Games community all by myself... I need to band together with others to make this a package, handle some books, etc

It's something like this, contributions, giving the work away, or holding it back for only those working with me... How much does PayPal take???

#11 The licensing info stipulates that academic/commercial (non-game)/military entities get special, per-instance deals... So I think the "exceptions" have been made pretty explicit. :)

#12 I need to sleep on this, but here is my current thought...

I could keep my codebase on such a CVS... people who paid would have access and a license to use any of the code/tools/etc... this would be as-is with zero support (well, next to zero)... this CVS would be updated as development continues (would become my dev repository)... This would be the only way of getting/legally using Prairie Games code/tools...

I cannot just give this stuff away... nor can I spend time packaging it... etc... I wouldn't be comfortable with people paying solely for access to this code... not that it isn't worth it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! It has more to do with my own psyche.

This is kind of like Game Beavers... but it's a pay service... It would be really cool for teams to share their code/assets this way (even partially)... Gold Membership buys your way into this club and helps the people improving/supplementing/spinning Torque... and making games, for god's sake, isn't it all about that games?!?!?!?! ;)

-J

#13 My own two cents on this matter would be that if there was a Gold Membership, as more content is added for access, the amount of money that is gained by the developers goes down. It's great when the first ten developers have stuff there, but when the next ten come along, that's when people start saying "You know, I could have *sworn* this was a good idea before, but it doesn't look so good now".

People can feel free to disagree, and I think that maybe there's a happy middleground out there that helps alleviate this problem, but I like the idea of content packs for now.

#14 Ya... I care most about the game... perhaps it makes the most since to just throw the code out there and see just who the hell sticks...

-J

#15 Pay Pal

2.2% + $0.30 USD to 2.9% + $0.30 USD
See:http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=_display-fees-outside

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As far as "gold membership"

Other engines have different prices (100,200, 1000) sort of "member ship" or "engine Level" when I looked at them they seemed to have boards plagued with "such and such doesn't work for me" and the first answer was "that cool feature only exists in the professional version. Spend more money." Or worse you can't get help from the "experts" because none of them run with your resources.

I really wish there was a way to reward those who help others without having the "others" pay extra. Game Beavers is trying something, but you need to be able to create what you need before you can get in.

Interesting thought though.

#16 Joshua,

I'm a little uncomfortable with this idea. I feel that it is against my view of how GarageGames work.

Before I bought the TGE, I've evaluated a lot of other engines. The primary reason why I choosed this engine is because of the community.

This is entirely my opinion and can never speak for everyone else but I believe that splitting the community into 2 (hobbyist and professional game developer) would be bad to the community in the long run. Well, atleast detrimental to us hobbyist.

Let me be selfish and allow you to consider my situation. I'm gainfully employed in a stressfull 10hr/day job. I use TGE to relieve stress by allowing me to do other stuff not related to db development. Unfortunately, I'm more of a systems developer and I'm pretty bad with graphics programming and vector math. In short, one of the reason why I choosed TGE was my impression that the community helps each other. Unfortunately, I believe that with your Gold Membership, the community will be split leaving the hobbyist and those without funding to just use whatever scraps the professional game developers throw our way. Believe me, I've seen similar thing happen twice. :(

One final note, $200USD is big money. In my country, its actually around $11,000PHP and considering that a the standard rate for 1st level entry developer is $7,500PHP/month ... this is a big expense. I actually had to convince my wife and sacrificed some personal amenities just to get my TGE license.

I'm not saying that your idea is bad, it just doesnt fit.

Just my $20PHP.

Alex

#17 I think this would be a good idea, although I really don't think that this would be as helpful as some other way of doing it. I dunno, it just doesn't feel right for some reason about how it would work. There are already lots of different Torque resource sites people have made, but there's just something from each of the sites that lacks something in particular, and then usually, people ignore them, and suggest another. I am in no way disagreeing in anyway, just doesn't fit me...
(has a headache)
EDIT: I agree with Alex

#18 Nothing works for everybody... somebody will always be left out... My enthusiasm for this idea is rapidly dwindling... it would lead to a lot of whining.

I have to consider my project.

#19 Josh,

Interesting idea.. not sure exactly how it would work in practice. I do see the need though. We don't have the time to be supporting stuff we have done that we want to release out into the community, and there does need to be some sort of tighter control on certain things that we would like other people to start using but we cannot figure out how to do it wiht expending time that is not going to help us stay in business.

In Clark's plan from some time back, we offered up access to the state switching code that we put into ThinkTanks. We had a few people contact us, but no one ever got it into 'resource' shape.

We also have our ActiveX version of ThinkTanks that we do not want to get out into the open as we have a signed security certificate and we don't want the particulars of what was done to be 'open' as it opens up a security hole.

We DO want to do what we can to support the community and give back what we have done (or are doing), but we need to find a way to make a living.

I do not want to see the community split into tiers or a group of elites, but I do definitely think that soemthing needs to happen so the people/companies that have the abilites and the desire to give back have some way of doing so without going broke.

21-6 and BraveTree did collaborate and share resources quite a bit before ThinkTanks and Orbz 2.0 shipped, and it definitely was a win-win siutation for both companies. The trick is to make something like this be a win-win for the community and the developers who have the abilities to make the stuff.

We are always looking for situations where we can team up with others for mutally benefit, but as time goes on and we have more of our 'own' tech, I don't know how much will be getting back to the community and how far we will get from stock TGE.

It would be unfortunate for the community not to have access to some of the things that people have added to the TGE for personal projects, but the trend is already happening as those who have shipped games just don't have the time/resources to spend the time supporting giveaways.

I understand where Josh is coming from totally. He wants to be able to give back and help support the indie scene.

I do too. I spent WAY too much time the first 2 years here on GG giving away my knowledge and helping people offline, and while I made some great friends, it is not making a great difference in the bottom line of our company and not helping me feed my family. I have need to not be as active on the forums and spend my time head done making product to sell.

Right now I am working on a content pack for a character, and I am trying to leave hooks in for compatability with a Maya exporter and have it go cleanly into Motion Builder so it will work with a Vicon Motion capture system (possibility of motion capture content packs a very real possibility). I have gone so far as to look into some ways to get this system to work with Milkshape characters, but at times I have to stop myself from going too far, from spending too much time going down a path that would be great for the community, but is personally not going to be super useful for BraveTree (unless we can somehow turn the research into sellable product).

For me, the need to make a living is often at odds with my desire to help the community. I so badly would love to see a situation where helping people and growing the community was not in conflict with the needs of our small company.

I am not sure if this particular idea (gold membership) is the right one, but it definitely is on the right track of where some energy has to be spent by the community to have 'something' there that will allow those who are in a postion to give a way to give back without it hurting us.

#20 Hey Joe...

"I am not sure if this particular idea (gold membership) is the right one, but it definitely is on the right track of where some energy has to be spent by the community to have 'something' there that will allow those who are in a postion to give a way to give back without it hurting us."

... or to give a way to give back with it helping us.

I am pretty depressed right now... it all seems so pointless... When video games have completely lost their luster, it's time for a break. I am going back to Minnapolis for Thanksgiving... this will help... some time out of Wishek, ND!!! OH MY GOD!!!!