Committee Meeting Notes: 06/03/2013

#1 Bad news about Ron but I hope the committee find the two people they are needing to keep things moving!
GOOD LUCK!!!

#2 As an employee of GG and forever a supporter of Torque technology, I want to personally thank Ron for his contributions to Torque 3D. I know he has been a great help to Dave, the committee, and the community. The impact he has had on the progression of Torque 3D cannot be stressed enough.

If you are a supporter of Torque Tech like myself and Ron, heed my advice that now is a great time to get involved. Ron proved that you can make a huge difference as a T3D committee member. It sucks to lose Ron, but I do wish him the best on what he is tackling. I'm sure we will see him around, as it's very difficult to escape GG. I am excited to see who will step up and join the ranks of the Torque development team.

#3 thx Ron
you did great work and gl with your projects

@David Wyand.......should have access to 3DS Max given how common it is.

is this really ment serious, i mean really again limiting T3D to 3dsmax?
really

why not someone who could actually do something - there are lots of users
that use Blender or XSI - at least dont take the same route with T3D mit as GG did in the past with limiting (source) artpipeline to 3dsmax you are cutting off most of the indies these days

T3D mit should really take advantage of beign open source
so plz consider at least Artists that use other Software!
However sadly ic what route this starts to take,
those limitations are just bottlenecks.

especially when looking at the response you guys received from the community that was willing to form some kind of art base
for T3D Mit

ye its k am shut

#4 Thanks to Ron for all of his hard work and good luck with whatever he's up to next. :)

#5 That was a surprise, Ron and the committee so far has done so many great things for this community.

I wish Ron the best and a big thanks for all his work in the committee and with his great packs. I hope we will continue to see him about for T3D.

As for 3DSMAX, well I think most indies which aren't going to go for a home version of 3DSMAX are going to be using Blender or much cheaper software than what autodesk offer. We properly have enough 3DSMAX examples for now and maybe some more accessible Blender ones would prove more useful?

#6 being a 3DSMaxer through and through, so long as blender has no issues importing and exporting collada I can't see any reason to exclude blender users.

As for Ron, you will be missed more than you know.

#7 That's one big pair of shoes to fill. Just sayin'.

#8 Thank you Ron for all of your hard work. :)

#9 @J0linar:
Why would Torque 3D suddenly be limited to just 3DS Max? Torque 3D imports the Collada file format, which may be exported from a number of applications. I don't see why we would lose that functionality, or stop improving it down the road.

The reason we mentioned 3DS Max is because a large chunk of the video game industry uses Max and we found it handy for someone on the Steering Committee to own it. I use LightWave, Mike uses Blender, and Ron used Max. But that's not the reason Ron was selected to join the Committee.

We do appreciate all of the artists in the community and don't want anyone to feel excluded because we talk about a particular 3D application. That was the whole point of adding the Community Art section of the v4 roadmap: to include the artists in the community in Torque 3D's development.

When I post the blog with the open call for Steering Committee members I won't mention any particular 3D application. I wouldn't want a discussion of which 3D app to use to derail the process and prevent us from finding the best people out there. Thanks for bringing this to our attention.

#10 @Edward:
It would be great to have examples from multiple 3D applications for sure. Maybe have the same set of static and animated shapes built in the various apps that produce the same end result in T3D?

Once the new Committee members join us this is certainly something we can discuss. This wouldn't be something the Committee could tackle on its own and it will require the artists that use a particular 3D app to step up and help create these examples. And that would include any required documentation, too.

- Dave

#11 thx David
for taking the time to write and think about this

I would like to suggest something (even if it might look out of place but at least its a sane idea)

to make some kind of list of what is needed
(i know its already there in the v4 Roadmap blog)
and instead on waiting to find some new full time committee member
just let the community produce what T3D MIT needs
as lets be honest, so far there would be only Steve Acaster who could fill Rons big boots and since Steve is in deep work with his game
that just might not happen

so create a new git repository just for art submissions
Community Members should be allowed to upload their work with some requirements
such as

make a forum thread showcasing the process of production (evolution)
and take in account community feedback

Models should be in the .dts/ .dae/ file format
along with supplying the source art files
.fbx/ .blend and so on

they should meet the quality of the currently used models
such as the soldier and his weapons

------------------------------------------------------------------------
from my pov
as Blender user
am able to export static to animated meshes
along with vehicles
just not characters yet

However,
am on the way - tracing boundingbox issues
ye i know its funny that just 1thing can stop u from doing characters but thats the boundingbox in my case

but unlike most here am primaly a 3D Sculptor
and using Zbrush and 3D Coat
the reason i use Blender is... well one day i just learned it and when u crack Blender u are not just goin to give it up
especially since its the one and only 3d app that delivers updates and improvements all the time for free.

even if i have to use 3different versions
to export my models sometimes

#12 What skills are needed and in what quality to be in the committee and what are the tasks someone has to do, if he is in the committee?

#13 All (Duion),

I would say the quality would be arbitrary. However, keep this in mind. We are NOT competing with engines like Unity. We are competing with Unreal and CryEngine. (This is based on the research I and the committee has done because we have FAR more in common with those engines than Unity). I say this because in all reality, you can buy a full license for Unity but, you never will get access to the source. Additionally, if you look through T3D's code base, you will see that T3D is actually based more on CryEngine 2 than anything else. Therefore, I would expect that anyone taking up the art side of T3D would keep this in mind and try to bring T3D up to that level. (Not an easy or quick task at all!)

I have to agree with a number of posters when it comes to 3D Max, yes it's an industry standard and yes, it is 'easier' to develop with Max but, Max is CRAZY expensive! I believe Blender would be a GREAT alternative to Max. I think this because well.... T3D is open source, Blender is open source, the two should link together FAR better than they do. I would put out a call to anyone that can 'link up' within the Blender community and bring our two projects together more tightly. I would also recommend (I don't really get a 'say' in who gets selected) someone that can take the Blender open source model (community developed projects whose production leads to advances in core tech.) and apply it to T3D.

I also will go a step further and offer up my consult for the new 'art lead'. At least until they are up to speed and go off in whatever direction they feel is important. Like I stated in my blog, I am not leaving the community, just stepping back.

Finally, thanks all for the wonderful words of support. I had NO idea anyone even paid attention to what I was trying to do. So thanks and my decision to step back was made even more difficult.

Ron

#14 Yes, I noticed, that Torque is much like CryEngine, because I made a bunch of levels for the old FarCry with it, this may be a reason, why I could getting started with Torque pretty fast.
I always liked the idea of level and game design, but I never liked being tied to modding existing games or being tied to expensive and complicated licenses because there is no free alternative and regular prices in the industry are not affordable for a normal person.
So Torque seems to be exactly what I wanted all the time. I wish I would have started learning modeling and all the other stuff earlier, but I already given up hope and also never heard of Torque before, but it was not open source before, I just came across it shortly after it was open sourced while googling for open source engines, to see if anything has changed in this sector, so I gave it a try, but also tried the other engines.

@Ron
So I may understand what you were trying to do, the problem is someone needs to have quite a lot of experience at least in gaming or 3D-design in general to notice what is going on.
I mostly come across two categories of people when I show what I am doing to get some feedback, the one group says to everything "looks bad" because it does not look like the newest commercial games they know, so they have no idea how much work is needed for that and the other group says "looks good" to everything, because they also have no idea how it is made or have a low level of skill and they would like to be able to do that and because of that all looks amazing to them.
But both is not really useful criticism to make you improve your work, so you are mostly on your own, especially if you try to design something like a new engine, so you have to make your own decisions.

#15 Hell, even before it was open source Torque it was dirt cheap! Compared to other engines (especially with full source) even $1000 was cheap, and the license was always pretty simple. It just never gained enough traction to allow GG to hire more staff and really compete - they had a skeleton crew trying to keep up with teams 10 times their size.

I wouldn't say that 3DS Max is "crazy expensive" - but it is pretty far out of the range of hobbyists. Making the art pipeline and the Torque documentation more Blender-centric would be extremely beneficial.

@Ron - you've done some awesome stuff and great work on the committee, glad to hear you're sticking around! Keep making those art packs - they're pretty awesome.

#16 Hey Peeps.

The secret to Blender-based documentation, tutorials, and improved integration is you!

For documentation we need the people that are experienced with Blender to write how-to's etc. You could create a GoogleDoc and share it with the Committee and we'll get it up on the Wiki page. Or just email something to us and we'll do the same. And if you want to make a video, we can link to it.

As for improving Blender integration with T3D we need you guys to start posting GitHub Issues. Point out that there is some specific problem when importing a Blender create DAE and include an example file that exhibits the problem. The more detail you provide with the Issue the more likely someone will tackle it. Just remember: you are the Blender expert and the person attempting to fix the problem may not be.

That goes for all other 3D applications. In order to improve T3D's art pipeline, you need to point out the flaws with specific examples.

I also wanted to touch on the 3DS Max concerns one last time: Torque 3D isn't just being used by no- or low-budget indies. Just because T3D has switched to the MIT license doesn't mean that companies with larger budgets aren't using it. And those companies more often use 3D applications that cost money. So I'm sure we will continue to hear and talk about paid 3D apps as well, and that discussion does not mean that one 3D app will be focused on in exclusion to all others.

- Dave

#17 @Duion:
The Steering Committee Charter may be found here. It outlines the Committee's goals, duties and responsibilities, as well membership requirements.

This is how I ended my blog when we were last looking for Committee members:

Quote:Does being a part of the Torque 3D open source steering committee interest you? Are you ready to be a leader and organizer in the community? Have you read through the draft charter and have a feeling of awesomeness swelling inside? If so, then please get in touch by email at davew@garagegames.com and let me know. We want to hear from you!

- Dave

#18 @Richard
Yes, it was cheap, but somehow I never heard of Torque engine before, I only knew quake/halflife/source-engine, unreal engine and cry engine and I thought that's all there is, sure there were others, but I cut them out, because they were not open for modding and own design or way to expensive.

#19

Quote:I would say the quality would be arbitrary. However, keep this in mind. We are NOT competing with engines like Unity. We are competing with Unreal and CryEngine. (This is based on the research I and the committee has done because we have FAR more in common with those engines than Unity). I say this because in all reality, you can buy a full license for Unity but, you never will get access to the source.

FYI Unity does offer a source code license (or at least they did a few years ago), and while - like Unreal and Cry - the price is not public information, it's pretty likely that it would be cheaper than a source code license for either of those 2 engines. But not cheaper than T3D, of course ;)

#20 @Ron
I agree with linking T3D more with Blender, even though for many 3D Max is a standard and much easier to use.

@T3D Steering Committee
Two suggestions:
1. Use CMake for the building process. Ogre3D and many other open source projects uses it. For example Polycode project build setups works like this:
- CMake downloads all the dependencies libraries and gen a build environment for it(ex a VS project)
- you compile the dependencies libraries
- CMake generates a build env for the engine itself
- now you can build the engine
2.Separate the editor from the game:
- you start the engine and it opens the editor
- from there you can create/edit/export levels
- you can then test the game
- from the front end you can now create the game package.

Thank you.