The Customer is always right? The dilemma of Art vs Product
by Watermark · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 11/25/2012 (4:52 am) · 17 replies
So got our first comment for our RPG Sorceria 2 today. And it got two starred. Now, the main reason the comment sited was that it was difficult to navigate the maps and we should provide markers, mini-maps, etc. Basically show where all the secrets are and where all the locations are so the player doesn't have to do any work. Basically, so the way I understand it, we should make the game so simple a 3 year old can play it.
I got a little angry. So I come here to vent. :p
I think as game designers we face a dilemma: should we always listen to customer feedback (and perhaps get more sales) or should we follow our original artistic ideal and maybe get punished for it?
See, one of the original incentives in developing the Sorceria RPGs is that I wanted it to be somewhat difficult. I wanted to make a game where the players had to work a bit. I was a little sick of the mass production excellent graphics fantastic voice acting super easy no brainers RPGs (cough...chaos rings...cough...) where everything is clear and simple. Where the player doesn't have to figure out ANYTHING at all. No pressure. All jolly achievements. And the mazes can't really be called mazes cause there's really only one path. Excellently suited to the casual gaming crowd of the mobile world. They prob did market research on this.
So we wanted to do something different. To be honest, we actually thought Sorceria 2 is already pretty simple and straightforward (Sorceria 1 was a bit hard, I admit.). But alas. The market is a tough place.
I really wonder if the crowd these days only love games that require no brainwork and has straightforward stories. I mean casual RPGs are not all bad and has their charms, but it's not something I want to make.
Still, I think I will still continue to create games that I myself love to play. Heck with the mass opinion.
Anyways, back to the drawing board. Gotta be professional about all this. One comment doesn't mean anything. Must have confidence! Well, on the bright side. In Sorceria 1 we got 1 starred, and in Sorceria 2 we got 2-starred. So we're improving eh? I feel better now.
I got a little angry. So I come here to vent. :p
I think as game designers we face a dilemma: should we always listen to customer feedback (and perhaps get more sales) or should we follow our original artistic ideal and maybe get punished for it?
See, one of the original incentives in developing the Sorceria RPGs is that I wanted it to be somewhat difficult. I wanted to make a game where the players had to work a bit. I was a little sick of the mass production excellent graphics fantastic voice acting super easy no brainers RPGs (cough...chaos rings...cough...) where everything is clear and simple. Where the player doesn't have to figure out ANYTHING at all. No pressure. All jolly achievements. And the mazes can't really be called mazes cause there's really only one path. Excellently suited to the casual gaming crowd of the mobile world. They prob did market research on this.
So we wanted to do something different. To be honest, we actually thought Sorceria 2 is already pretty simple and straightforward (Sorceria 1 was a bit hard, I admit.). But alas. The market is a tough place.
I really wonder if the crowd these days only love games that require no brainwork and has straightforward stories. I mean casual RPGs are not all bad and has their charms, but it's not something I want to make.
Still, I think I will still continue to create games that I myself love to play. Heck with the mass opinion.
Anyways, back to the drawing board. Gotta be professional about all this. One comment doesn't mean anything. Must have confidence! Well, on the bright side. In Sorceria 1 we got 1 starred, and in Sorceria 2 we got 2-starred. So we're improving eh? I feel better now.
About the author
Three iTorque 1.5 games published: Sorceria 1: The Mad Doctor RPG Sorceria 2: Sunken City Sagas: RPG Boardgame and Name Generator For more info see our site: http://wmrpg.weebly.com
#2
+ People don't realize what it takes to make and publish a game.
+ Your an Indie developer, not a huge conglomerate that tries to appeal to the entire world.
+ Indie dev's are not limited to success titles in the same way as large companies.
+ Part of the fun with Game making is that you make the game in the style you like and to play it the way you like.
+ It is ART.. the very nature of art is to be unique and only the artist that made it will know where the mistakes are; everyone else only sees a product which they will critique. Some will love it while others just don't get it.
I personally haven't seen your game either, but I don't need to see it to know that your taking a rating from a small number of people, far too personally.
As one of your peers in the community, I commend you on your achievement since I know it was no small task to complete. Good Job !
11/25/2012 (10:18 am)
Some things to consider when you get ratings on anything that is Art:+ People don't realize what it takes to make and publish a game.
+ Your an Indie developer, not a huge conglomerate that tries to appeal to the entire world.
+ Indie dev's are not limited to success titles in the same way as large companies.
+ Part of the fun with Game making is that you make the game in the style you like and to play it the way you like.
+ It is ART.. the very nature of art is to be unique and only the artist that made it will know where the mistakes are; everyone else only sees a product which they will critique. Some will love it while others just don't get it.
I personally haven't seen your game either, but I don't need to see it to know that your taking a rating from a small number of people, far too personally.
As one of your peers in the community, I commend you on your achievement since I know it was no small task to complete. Good Job !
#3
After publishing 3 games, I find it funny myself how whenever I get a bad/dumb comment I still go through the comment rage cycle, which goes something like:
Get bad comment-> Start cursing off the commenter which usu goes something like Why you (some degrading adj) (choice insult) of a (some relative)less (some animal)!!! -> Complain to team mates/dev community -> Seethe a bit -> Sleep/Eat Chips -> Calm down -> Think about the comment logically -> more or less implement the suggestion in an update -> See another comment -> loop
You guys are right. For every person who complains there's probably a hundred who just goes meh and never buys stuff from you again. Our critics are sometimes our biggest helpers. Making a game is as much a craft as anything else, and the road to mastery is long and tough. I think as devs we do have to really look our games in the mirror and critically look at it.
Still, I think Stephen King once said something like "Only write the truth." Only write what you really love. Everything else just isn't worth it.
11/25/2012 (6:00 pm)
Hey thanks for the support guys! After publishing 3 games, I find it funny myself how whenever I get a bad/dumb comment I still go through the comment rage cycle, which goes something like:
Get bad comment-> Start cursing off the commenter which usu goes something like Why you (some degrading adj) (choice insult) of a (some relative)less (some animal)!!! -> Complain to team mates/dev community -> Seethe a bit -> Sleep/Eat Chips -> Calm down -> Think about the comment logically -> more or less implement the suggestion in an update -> See another comment -> loop
You guys are right. For every person who complains there's probably a hundred who just goes meh and never buys stuff from you again. Our critics are sometimes our biggest helpers. Making a game is as much a craft as anything else, and the road to mastery is long and tough. I think as devs we do have to really look our games in the mirror and critically look at it.
Still, I think Stephen King once said something like "Only write the truth." Only write what you really love. Everything else just isn't worth it.
#4
I think Scott is right in the round-about-way of describing how amazing you are to have come this far. What you are going through is what killed any hope of my RPG board game from going anywhere ybecause I took comments too personally and made stupid replies in return. For me personally I will hire a charismatic person to handle all disputes in the future when I am ready to launch again because this is my baby -- trust me I understand what you are feeling but please look at how far you have come along. DO NOT GIVE UP!
11/25/2012 (10:24 pm)
You brought up Stephen King which brings to mind a personal social thought experiment -- something that I tell others that are into artistic endeavors. I firmly believe that if Stephen King came up to you one day and said "Hey dude, here is the rough draft of my next book that is not on the selves yet, I want you to have it. I want you to take credit for it as though you wrote it." I promise you that during the editing phase (after having it professionally edited) that if you gave a sample to anyone and asked them what can I do to make this better you will get tons of critiques on how you can make it better.I think Scott is right in the round-about-way of describing how amazing you are to have come this far. What you are going through is what killed any hope of my RPG board game from going anywhere ybecause I took comments too personally and made stupid replies in return. For me personally I will hire a charismatic person to handle all disputes in the future when I am ready to launch again because this is my baby -- trust me I understand what you are feeling but please look at how far you have come along. DO NOT GIVE UP!
#5
I attempted to go through the steps of buying your game using the attention level of a common customer (20 seconds). I did not find a way to purchase a PC version of the game -- just freakin' phone-level silliness. This will soon be a dinosaur of games in general, and even if it somehow survives you must venture on multiple levels anyways. All I can tell you is that the game looks like it would be some old school fun, but I can not experience it because it requires you to play it on the phone. I have a Galaxy 7 (I'm pretty sure about that? lol) -- I do not play RPG's on a phone, I do not understand this concept (please help). IMHO only F god would know why someone would ever want to play a game (RPG -- and I know it seems popular right now) on a phone, but I am all ears at this point in regards to the future so please enlighten me.
It looks like you have a great product. Maybe I missed the area where you could download it for PC and I am the 20 second fool, but I think this is something that will haunt me soon -- how can I get my game on as many platforms as possible. IMHO get it out on several platforms at one time.
11/27/2012 (9:26 pm)
I am talking to you as a "realist" and not a jerk -- please do not take tone to the words that I am putting down because I am speaking in an honest way. I attempted to go through the steps of buying your game using the attention level of a common customer (20 seconds). I did not find a way to purchase a PC version of the game -- just freakin' phone-level silliness. This will soon be a dinosaur of games in general, and even if it somehow survives you must venture on multiple levels anyways. All I can tell you is that the game looks like it would be some old school fun, but I can not experience it because it requires you to play it on the phone. I have a Galaxy 7 (I'm pretty sure about that? lol) -- I do not play RPG's on a phone, I do not understand this concept (please help). IMHO only F god would know why someone would ever want to play a game (RPG -- and I know it seems popular right now) on a phone, but I am all ears at this point in regards to the future so please enlighten me.
It looks like you have a great product. Maybe I missed the area where you could download it for PC and I am the 20 second fool, but I think this is something that will haunt me soon -- how can I get my game on as many platforms as possible. IMHO get it out on several platforms at one time.
#6
The game is a pass-time, something to do for fun. RPG's are for Role Playing whatever type of character you'd like to pretend to be.
The RPG is for the iPhone and is built with iTorque2D engine. This engine is specific for making iPhone games. Unless you find an iPhone emulator for the PC, and transfer it to the PC, then you cannot play the RPG on your PC.
I don't know if the Galaxy 7 phone you have can run iPhone apps, but if it does then give it a try, you might find that RPG's are a great way to pass the time while waiting for ( whatever you'd be passing time for ).
11/27/2012 (10:15 pm)
@DreamPharoahThe game is a pass-time, something to do for fun. RPG's are for Role Playing whatever type of character you'd like to pretend to be.
The RPG is for the iPhone and is built with iTorque2D engine. This engine is specific for making iPhone games. Unless you find an iPhone emulator for the PC, and transfer it to the PC, then you cannot play the RPG on your PC.
I don't know if the Galaxy 7 phone you have can run iPhone apps, but if it does then give it a try, you might find that RPG's are a great way to pass the time while waiting for ( whatever you'd be passing time for ).
#7
Getting our Torque games to many platforms has been a subject of much complaining for a while. You can read about them in the "Torque CE ver", "Torque2D at infinite pause" or the other "I'm moving to Unity" threads littered here and there. I believe GarageGames is working full steam on it, but so far there's no set release date. People like us are still holding our breaths.
But anyway, thanks for trying to download it!
11/28/2012 (12:12 am)
Hey guys, sorry for not making it clear but the engine can only compile to iPhone or an iPad at the moment. I wrote it using iTorque 1.5.0. If the new Torque engine can compile to Android (Galaxy 7) I'm all for it. Regarding the PC, the way I understand it is currently there are some key differences between the PC Torque engine and the iTorque engine. The most notable of it being the way MP3's are played. So unfortunately, my game does not run on the PC.Getting our Torque games to many platforms has been a subject of much complaining for a while. You can read about them in the "Torque CE ver", "Torque2D at infinite pause" or the other "I'm moving to Unity" threads littered here and there. I believe GarageGames is working full steam on it, but so far there's no set release date. People like us are still holding our breaths.
But anyway, thanks for trying to download it!
#8
1. People with phones play in short 5-10 minute bursts, so the PhoneRPGs should cater to that. More action oriented, less dialogue.
2. RPGs should be targeted more toward the "casual crowd" that is not as familiar with the rules of RPG games as the traditional gamers. i.e. PhoneRPGs should be easier.
3. There should be instant gratification built in, achievements, badges what not.
4. It should probably be multi-player.
It had several more good points but it escapes me at the moment. It all makes sense rationally. And as proven by the top games you see in the iTunes RPG category, what it says makes sense. If you follow the advice above you'll probably get good sales.
But that's my point exactly. See, I started out as a traditional RPG gamer on the PC/SNES/Genesis/PS/heck even GameBoy/NES. And I loved those games. And I've also played these "new" types of RPGs that have a freemium model and fast action, but I just don't "get" it. I can appreciate them, but I don't love them.
I still like the "old" kind of RPGs.
And actually, I play them on the iPad. :p But it works for me on the Phone too. Especially when waiting in long lines.
11/28/2012 (12:24 am)
Ah! RPGs on the Phone. Now I read a good online article on it once. I forgot where it is but it said something along the following lines:1. People with phones play in short 5-10 minute bursts, so the PhoneRPGs should cater to that. More action oriented, less dialogue.
2. RPGs should be targeted more toward the "casual crowd" that is not as familiar with the rules of RPG games as the traditional gamers. i.e. PhoneRPGs should be easier.
3. There should be instant gratification built in, achievements, badges what not.
4. It should probably be multi-player.
It had several more good points but it escapes me at the moment. It all makes sense rationally. And as proven by the top games you see in the iTunes RPG category, what it says makes sense. If you follow the advice above you'll probably get good sales.
But that's my point exactly. See, I started out as a traditional RPG gamer on the PC/SNES/Genesis/PS/heck even GameBoy/NES. And I loved those games. And I've also played these "new" types of RPGs that have a freemium model and fast action, but I just don't "get" it. I can appreciate them, but I don't love them.
I still like the "old" kind of RPGs.
And actually, I play them on the iPad. :p But it works for me on the Phone too. Especially when waiting in long lines.
#9
A developer friend of mine also got disenchanted with making a game due to comments from play testers. Perhaps play testing is overrated when you are making a niche game, a labor of love, or just trying your damnedest to make a dream a reality.
11/28/2012 (7:36 am)
I'm sure there's a niche crowd that enjoys playing games on their iPhone like a Gameboy Color.A developer friend of mine also got disenchanted with making a game due to comments from play testers. Perhaps play testing is overrated when you are making a niche game, a labor of love, or just trying your damnedest to make a dream a reality.
#10
Maybe there is a Guru of sorts that can bring to the table how one could go about porting it to PC or other platforms.
I can only imagine your frustration at this point being locked into one platform, but many concepts that were thought to be impracticable are now all the rage such as iphone games, so maybe if you keep advertising your more involved RPG game it will take off breaking rule #2 of the list.
11/28/2012 (8:01 am)
The multi-player thing had eluded me. That would make the iphone seem like a portable Gameboy Color, thank you for the direction on that one. Maybe there is a Guru of sorts that can bring to the table how one could go about porting it to PC or other platforms.
I can only imagine your frustration at this point being locked into one platform, but many concepts that were thought to be impracticable are now all the rage such as iphone games, so maybe if you keep advertising your more involved RPG game it will take off breaking rule #2 of the list.
#11
I think the customer's comment is valid in that they are used to games that "do it for them". Perhaps that commenter is not going to be your customer anyway. You could also explain to the customer that this game is designed for advanced RPG players. If you word that correctly you are basically saying this is not a "baby mode" RPG game without offending the customer.
One thing you can consider is providing markers for some items, but do not provide markers for the really interesting or bonus stuff. Another idea is to have a "casual" mode which simplifies some of the game play, but reduces points or even keeps the player from getting the really cool stuff. That way if you have a scoreboard for players to see the top players then it is not lop sided to the casual gamers.
11/28/2012 (8:48 am)
@Watermark,I think the customer's comment is valid in that they are used to games that "do it for them". Perhaps that commenter is not going to be your customer anyway. You could also explain to the customer that this game is designed for advanced RPG players. If you word that correctly you are basically saying this is not a "baby mode" RPG game without offending the customer.
One thing you can consider is providing markers for some items, but do not provide markers for the really interesting or bonus stuff. Another idea is to have a "casual" mode which simplifies some of the game play, but reduces points or even keeps the player from getting the really cool stuff. That way if you have a scoreboard for players to see the top players then it is not lop sided to the casual gamers.
#12
11/28/2012 (9:42 am)
@Watermark, I think Frank hit it spot on for your next release :-) 
#13
As Frank said just roll with the majority of you customers and explain to the rest that the game is designed for different players.
11/30/2012 (2:34 am)
You can never please everyone anyway you slice it.As Frank said just roll with the majority of you customers and explain to the rest that the game is designed for different players.
#14
But keep in mind it is YOUR project, you are the one designing it, and ultimately you are the one taking decisions, you provide an experience, that you believe is worth buying, then by all means stick to it. Keep an ear open to criticism but do not bow down to it.
As for replacing markers with something less "hand hold ish" i recall some game was writing in a different color key elements of quests, like where you had to deliver things, where that npc is waiting for you. If it's all in a nicely made quest journal, it's a way for the less patient players to get to the essential of what they are looking for.
12/17/2012 (10:23 pm)
Community feedback is always important, knowing how players react to your product is important.But keep in mind it is YOUR project, you are the one designing it, and ultimately you are the one taking decisions, you provide an experience, that you believe is worth buying, then by all means stick to it. Keep an ear open to criticism but do not bow down to it.
As for replacing markers with something less "hand hold ish" i recall some game was writing in a different color key elements of quests, like where you had to deliver things, where that npc is waiting for you. If it's all in a nicely made quest journal, it's a way for the less patient players to get to the essential of what they are looking for.
#15
12/18/2012 (2:54 pm)
@Kyrah - Sorry if I'm having a slow moment here; were the different colors to denote what area you could find the quest target/npc/delivery point in or was it keyed by color to denote type of quest (red for kill dudes, blue for npcs and green for deliveries)? I kind of like both as general ideas....
#16
Ex:
"You have to help me, my brother Georges is in danger, he ventured alone in the mines south west from our village and i am afraid that he might get in trouble, can you do anything to save him?"
the highlighted text here would be:
"Georges, mines, south west, village, save him"
"Customer is always right" work for retail, but for video games... a lot of the time players do not know what they like or not, or what do they want is basically a self serving request that doesn't take the game as a whole in account.
12/28/2012 (7:54 am)
The idea was basically reminicent of some RPG i played as a kid, where as npcs would tell you their little story, important informations was highlighted in such a way that if you wanted to skip reading, these pieces of informations where what you needed to complete the quest.Ex:
"You have to help me, my brother Georges is in danger, he ventured alone in the mines south west from our village and i am afraid that he might get in trouble, can you do anything to save him?"
the highlighted text here would be:
"Georges, mines, south west, village, save him"
"Customer is always right" work for retail, but for video games... a lot of the time players do not know what they like or not, or what do they want is basically a self serving request that doesn't take the game as a whole in account.
#17
As far as selling a product goes: You do need to understand a target audience, and that yeah... sometimes you will feel like you are holding the customer's hand.
Like watching THE AVENGERS... an amazing movie, but it holds our hands quite a bit whether or not we realize it; constantly repeating who the villain is, what everyone is fighting over and what the stakes are. We should get it the first, second or third time, but for varying reasons a lot of us tend to miss the details.
It doesn't mean we're so dumb somebody has to hold our hands, we're just enjoying the product in different ways... and sometimes that means not feeling like we have to keep track of every single detail.
So, if you've got unique or math-riddled systems that we're trying to master, while a deep narrative is playing out before us... we're definitely going to miss something, and we're hoping you'll point it out again or remind us again sometime in the near future.
Anyone remember in Final Fantasy 7 how many times they reminded us what AVALANCHE was and how they had to save the planet? They drilled the evil evilness of Shinra into our heads before you even got out of the first PLANT!
Good times. 8)
Oh, and I'm totally used to the kinds of comments to which you are referring. I do all kinds of commissions (privately now - but I drew my avatar for use in Baldur's Gate if that helps).
02/26/2013 (4:26 pm)
It's true what everyone is saying: Any comment with a problem, as well as a suggested solution, is always a good thing. The user is attempting to contribute, regardless of their knowledge of the inner workings of whatever it is you are actually doing.As far as selling a product goes: You do need to understand a target audience, and that yeah... sometimes you will feel like you are holding the customer's hand.
Like watching THE AVENGERS... an amazing movie, but it holds our hands quite a bit whether or not we realize it; constantly repeating who the villain is, what everyone is fighting over and what the stakes are. We should get it the first, second or third time, but for varying reasons a lot of us tend to miss the details.
It doesn't mean we're so dumb somebody has to hold our hands, we're just enjoying the product in different ways... and sometimes that means not feeling like we have to keep track of every single detail.
So, if you've got unique or math-riddled systems that we're trying to master, while a deep narrative is playing out before us... we're definitely going to miss something, and we're hoping you'll point it out again or remind us again sometime in the near future.
Anyone remember in Final Fantasy 7 how many times they reminded us what AVALANCHE was and how they had to save the planet? They drilled the evil evilness of Shinra into our heads before you even got out of the first PLANT!
Good times. 8)
Oh, and I'm totally used to the kinds of comments to which you are referring. I do all kinds of commissions (privately now - but I drew my avatar for use in Baldur's Gate if that helps).
Torque Owner DreamPharaoh
Gods and Nemesis
Don't let anyone's comments eat away at your resolve to accomplish what you want to do. You are right about the low-brain-activity part, and noticed it when writing science fiction. At the same time a customer that comments (positively or negatively) are your most valuable customers. How many actually take the time to say anything at all? Those that say something are the ones that maybe presenting you with an issue that many others wanted to say, and so an amazing opportunity.
It is a balancing act that requires a lot of soul searching on your part. Do you want to make something that is seen only by a few (underground style) or something that is enjoyed by many?
Also keep in mind, your customer base may be putting in many hours at work. They may want something that is a little more involved than putting in a movie, but not something that requires intense thinking while they are winding down.
Maybe a compromise can be reached on the next game, where you have the main story line as an easy on-going quest, as the harder puzzles are in the side quests or rooms locked with goodies. This what I plan on doing.