Some Beginner Questions
by Jason Campbell · in Torque 3D Beginner · 11/08/2012 (8:52 pm) · 13 replies
Hi everyone, very new here so I will start with a small introduction.
I was excited to see that Torque 3D is now open source. I've been working with Flash for awhile and found that I wanted to attempt something in 3D. I'm not trying to make the next Crysis or anything, I understand the difficulties of making a full game. I have found that the best way for me to learn is to jump right in and start doing. I have some Actionscript and C++ under my belt.
My computer is ancient and I'm running Windows 7 with an old ATI card(x1950pro) and I was looking for a smaller engine to work with. At first I was drawn to Blender Game Engine and Panda3D because Python seems very easy. The problem is that my card has no OpenGL support under Win7 since the drivers are ancient. Blender is out. A game creation suite by the name of Sandbox is also only OpenGL. Panda3D works because it has DirectX support but there are still some problems with my old ATI card. I could go back to Windows XP but don't really want to do that.
I realize that if I go with T3D, there is going to be a lot of learning to do. The game that I had in mind to eventually start is definitely not a new idea, I just wanted to try a basic zombie FPS shooter and thought that Torque would be good for this.
Anyway, I should get to the questions.
1. I have Finney's excellent but old 3D Game Programming all-in-one book. I work much better with a hard copy book beside me when learning something. Is T3D backwards compatible? Meaning would I be able to follow through his lessons but using the updated engine?
2. Let's say that a miracle happens and I succeed in putting together a simple game. Is TorqueScript flexible enough that I would be able to add RPG elements without re-writing the engine source code? I know my limits and I'm pretty sure I couldn't do that. I just want an idea of how imaginative I could get using just TorqueScript.
3. I've always admired Torque and what GarageGames were doing. While I'm not a complete noob when it comes to game programming, does it sound like me and T3D are a good fit or should I attempt Panda3D or some other engine I haven't thought of instead? (I realize probably nobody here has used Panda3D)
Thank you all for reading my ramblings.
I was excited to see that Torque 3D is now open source. I've been working with Flash for awhile and found that I wanted to attempt something in 3D. I'm not trying to make the next Crysis or anything, I understand the difficulties of making a full game. I have found that the best way for me to learn is to jump right in and start doing. I have some Actionscript and C++ under my belt.
My computer is ancient and I'm running Windows 7 with an old ATI card(x1950pro) and I was looking for a smaller engine to work with. At first I was drawn to Blender Game Engine and Panda3D because Python seems very easy. The problem is that my card has no OpenGL support under Win7 since the drivers are ancient. Blender is out. A game creation suite by the name of Sandbox is also only OpenGL. Panda3D works because it has DirectX support but there are still some problems with my old ATI card. I could go back to Windows XP but don't really want to do that.
I realize that if I go with T3D, there is going to be a lot of learning to do. The game that I had in mind to eventually start is definitely not a new idea, I just wanted to try a basic zombie FPS shooter and thought that Torque would be good for this.
Anyway, I should get to the questions.
1. I have Finney's excellent but old 3D Game Programming all-in-one book. I work much better with a hard copy book beside me when learning something. Is T3D backwards compatible? Meaning would I be able to follow through his lessons but using the updated engine?
2. Let's say that a miracle happens and I succeed in putting together a simple game. Is TorqueScript flexible enough that I would be able to add RPG elements without re-writing the engine source code? I know my limits and I'm pretty sure I couldn't do that. I just want an idea of how imaginative I could get using just TorqueScript.
3. I've always admired Torque and what GarageGames were doing. While I'm not a complete noob when it comes to game programming, does it sound like me and T3D are a good fit or should I attempt Panda3D or some other engine I haven't thought of instead? (I realize probably nobody here has used Panda3D)
Thank you all for reading my ramblings.
#2
"I just wanted to try a basic zombie FPS shooter and thought that Torque would be good for this."
http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/21702
http://www.garagegames.com/community/blog/view/21315/2
11/09/2012 (3:59 am)
your hardware specification ?"I just wanted to try a basic zombie FPS shooter and thought that Torque would be good for this."
http://www.garagegames.com/community/resources/view/21702
http://www.garagegames.com/community/blog/view/21315/2
#3
11/09/2012 (4:03 am)
@Ahsan oh lol, I actually completely missed that line I just read the "RPG elements".. Well in that case Torque is almost perfect for you :) 
#4
You might end up surprised at how easy it is to make a decent looking world. T3D's material system is quite powerful and shaders are automatic for functions such as specularity and normal mapping. In a perfect world, the engine should encourage your creativity, not stand in the way of it. T3D is pretty close to hitting that mark.
Working on older hardware is, in my opinion, an advantage. Look at it this way. If you can build it and it plays well on your machine, then most users will also have good performance. To me that is greatly preferred over "requires bleeding edge hardware or it runs badly".
Yeah, sounds like a reasonable fit.
11/10/2012 (6:58 am)
There's a resource for an older Torque regarding splicing Torquescript into an SQLite database. That sounds ideal as a way to gently ease into RPG features such as persistent characters, stats and some basic inventory.You might end up surprised at how easy it is to make a decent looking world. T3D's material system is quite powerful and shaders are automatic for functions such as specularity and normal mapping. In a perfect world, the engine should encourage your creativity, not stand in the way of it. T3D is pretty close to hitting that mark.
Working on older hardware is, in my opinion, an advantage. Look at it this way. If you can build it and it plays well on your machine, then most users will also have good performance. To me that is greatly preferred over "requires bleeding edge hardware or it runs badly".
Yeah, sounds like a reasonable fit.
#5
Another question I have is whether it is possible to use T3D to do a more "open world" where I could load different zones to make a larger world?
@ahsan - I am embarrassed of my specs mind you - Athlon64 +3200 single core 2.2ghz, 2.5gig of RAM and an AGP x1950 pro w/256MB of RAM. I would like to note I played and enjoyed Skyrim on this set-up. Doing stuff with ancient tech is sort of a hobby of mine. The zombie art pack does look perfect but I will need to see how good I can become with Torque first. Basically with that and the AI script 85% of the game would already be done for me! I want to learn a bit of modeling too. I have used copies of Maya and Lightwave. I was planning on finding and modifying free models.
@Kenneth - The database idea sounds like a good one, I will have to look that up. I thought the same thing about my specs but older is an understatement :) anyway thanks that sounds encouraging.
General question for everyone - am I going to eventually need VC++ or is there a none MS alternative?
Jason
11/10/2012 (9:58 am)
@Lucas - Thanks, that sounds great, you're right I may need help on where to place everything. I looked at your first tutorial a bit and noticed that you think TS is too slow for AI. Is this going to be a problem for adding my RPG elements? My zombie Another question I have is whether it is possible to use T3D to do a more "open world" where I could load different zones to make a larger world?
@ahsan - I am embarrassed of my specs mind you - Athlon64 +3200 single core 2.2ghz, 2.5gig of RAM and an AGP x1950 pro w/256MB of RAM. I would like to note I played and enjoyed Skyrim on this set-up. Doing stuff with ancient tech is sort of a hobby of mine. The zombie art pack does look perfect but I will need to see how good I can become with Torque first. Basically with that and the AI script 85% of the game would already be done for me! I want to learn a bit of modeling too. I have used copies of Maya and Lightwave. I was planning on finding and modifying free models.
@Kenneth - The database idea sounds like a good one, I will have to look that up. I thought the same thing about my specs but older is an understatement :) anyway thanks that sounds encouraging.
General question for everyone - am I going to eventually need VC++ or is there a none MS alternative?
Jason
#6
As for the open world, currently you are bound in a way to a the terrain blocks. But there is great movements on the terrain area currently and I have seen videos of endless procedural voxel terrain worlds.
11/10/2012 (10:40 am)
@Jason actually, there is some movement on the TS area so it is very possible that before you will publish your game that TS will be optimized enough that it will not be an issue. Also, I have used TS for my AI before, but it is an important hit compared to doing it in C++, atleast for now it is.As for the open world, currently you are bound in a way to a the terrain blocks. But there is great movements on the terrain area currently and I have seen videos of endless procedural voxel terrain worlds.
#7
and i developed a full zombie game on that pc.
so i am absolutely sure it will work fine for u.
but i did some optimization on video settings.
u cannot do that without knowledge on t3d.
for now just run with basic lighting and select other low settings.
11/10/2012 (12:15 pm)
i have worked with t3d (almost a year) on a much less powerful pc than u.and i developed a full zombie game on that pc.
so i am absolutely sure it will work fine for u.
but i did some optimization on video settings.
u cannot do that without knowledge on t3d.
for now just run with basic lighting and select other low settings.
#8
I just saw some terrain vistas in the showoff thread that blew my mind. It looks like photographs!
I'm not trying to be a dick but last night I looked into the Unity free version and while I can't put my finger on why, it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. It seems like it would be easy to get something going, I just messed with the "world editor" for a bit. I think it is the strange "fanboy" attitude in the forum posts I read.
You all are probably sick of this question and I think I have made up my mind to throw myself into Torque but has anyone here used both Unity and Torque that could set my mind at ease about why Unity leaves me with a weird feeling? Nobody needs to answer that really, $1500 for pro and $400 for mobile licenses in free version.
Does anyone see unofficial support for T3D or TorqueX going away anytime in the near future? Meaning the next couple years?
Sorry for the lame questions. :/
11/11/2012 (10:16 am)
You guys are giving me a lot of hope and it is very apparent that anything can be done with the engine depending on how much knowledge I can attain and how much work I put into it.I just saw some terrain vistas in the showoff thread that blew my mind. It looks like photographs!
I'm not trying to be a dick but last night I looked into the Unity free version and while I can't put my finger on why, it leaves me with a bad taste in my mouth. It seems like it would be easy to get something going, I just messed with the "world editor" for a bit. I think it is the strange "fanboy" attitude in the forum posts I read.
You all are probably sick of this question and I think I have made up my mind to throw myself into Torque but has anyone here used both Unity and Torque that could set my mind at ease about why Unity leaves me with a weird feeling? Nobody needs to answer that really, $1500 for pro and $400 for mobile licenses in free version.
Does anyone see unofficial support for T3D or TorqueX going away anytime in the near future? Meaning the next couple years?
Sorry for the lame questions. :/
#9
no need to try out.just go with u3d.as it is first and easy to learn so i think 1 month is ok to learn u3d.i hope u will feel it yourself.
now-a-days unity is a standard.so it is good to learn it for mobile platforms.it will help u on future.
+u can use c# script on both engine
"I just saw some terrain vistas in the showoff thread that blew my mind. It looks like photographs!"
:)
on other side,i have heard,read and seen bad things about u3d's terrain.specially terrain tools in unity have so much bad reputation.
+u3d is not actually a engine now.
it is called a authoring tool not an engine.
here,on forum many user use both for their platform based projects.
u better hope answer from them.
11/11/2012 (11:02 am)
"You guys are giving me a lot of hope and it is very apparent that anything can be done with the engine depending on how much knowledge I can attain and how much work I put into it."no need to try out.just go with u3d.as it is first and easy to learn so i think 1 month is ok to learn u3d.i hope u will feel it yourself.
now-a-days unity is a standard.so it is good to learn it for mobile platforms.it will help u on future.
+u can use c# script on both engine
"I just saw some terrain vistas in the showoff thread that blew my mind. It looks like photographs!"
:)
on other side,i have heard,read and seen bad things about u3d's terrain.specially terrain tools in unity have so much bad reputation.
+u3d is not actually a engine now.
it is called a authoring tool not an engine.
here,on forum many user use both for their platform based projects.
u better hope answer from them.
#10
"Does anyone see unofficial support for T3D or TorqueX going away anytime in the near future? Meaning the next couple years?"
I don't know about Torque X, but I expect T3D to do well.
Long story made short, the GG team releasing T3D on the MIT license will create a feeding frenzy because of all the opportunities it opens up. The more developers use it, the more other developers will support it, and the more T3D's market share grows. That market share puts GG in a great position financially because they have experience with the engine making them first choice when a major studio needs a consultant or services.
Expect it to be around for a long time. At least that's my prediction.
11/11/2012 (1:46 pm)
@Jason"Does anyone see unofficial support for T3D or TorqueX going away anytime in the near future? Meaning the next couple years?"
I don't know about Torque X, but I expect T3D to do well.
Long story made short, the GG team releasing T3D on the MIT license will create a feeding frenzy because of all the opportunities it opens up. The more developers use it, the more other developers will support it, and the more T3D's market share grows. That market share puts GG in a great position financially because they have experience with the engine making them first choice when a major studio needs a consultant or services.
Expect it to be around for a long time. At least that's my prediction.
#11
"Does anyone see unofficial support for T3D or TorqueX going away anytime in the near future? Meaning the next couple years?"
T3D went MIT and is heavily supported by the community.
TorqueX isn't sold anymore but yes, the TorqueX CEV has been running for a couple of years.
(Just noticed) Did you mean that it will lose the "unofficial support"?
Actually Torque3D is still kind of officially supported, the T3D committee is made up by quite a couple of GG members aswell as some community members. But no I don't see T3D lose support. I don't have TorqueX so I wont be able to vouch for that.
It's fine to ask about other engines here as there is actually quite a clear distinction between all the different engines!
Unity, is a very easy engine to work with, it's advanced component system makes drag and drop development an achievable solution. However, I tried working with it and it's definetly not my thing. While giving you a lot of great features and ease of use, I think that it is restricting the developer a little too much to simple development, I don't learn anything by using Unity, neither do I feel I am in control of the engine rather than using it. Torque3D gives you that control since the source is open. In Torque3D you can take the terrain code and improve it instead of waiting for an update from the delopers that created Unity. Also, Unity free has some restrictions like, no full screen shaders, and no shadows (only blob) and if you want to get rid of those restrictions, 1500$ seems a bit pricey to me compared to T3D's former 179$ and now free.
I do believe that if you just want to throw something together or have a big budget Unity is the way to go. If your budget is a little more tight and you actually care about learning how game development works, or if you are interested in having control of your engine, T3D is the way to go. If you want to make something thats seriously awesome but don't plan to earn a lot of money on it ( if any at all ) UDK is a viable option aswell.
But I have always thought that Torque is the best choice. That is just my opinion, but opinions is all I can give you :)
11/11/2012 (10:42 pm)
@Jason"Does anyone see unofficial support for T3D or TorqueX going away anytime in the near future? Meaning the next couple years?"
T3D went MIT and is heavily supported by the community.
TorqueX isn't sold anymore but yes, the TorqueX CEV has been running for a couple of years.
(Just noticed) Did you mean that it will lose the "unofficial support"?
Actually Torque3D is still kind of officially supported, the T3D committee is made up by quite a couple of GG members aswell as some community members. But no I don't see T3D lose support. I don't have TorqueX so I wont be able to vouch for that.
It's fine to ask about other engines here as there is actually quite a clear distinction between all the different engines!
Unity, is a very easy engine to work with, it's advanced component system makes drag and drop development an achievable solution. However, I tried working with it and it's definetly not my thing. While giving you a lot of great features and ease of use, I think that it is restricting the developer a little too much to simple development, I don't learn anything by using Unity, neither do I feel I am in control of the engine rather than using it. Torque3D gives you that control since the source is open. In Torque3D you can take the terrain code and improve it instead of waiting for an update from the delopers that created Unity. Also, Unity free has some restrictions like, no full screen shaders, and no shadows (only blob) and if you want to get rid of those restrictions, 1500$ seems a bit pricey to me compared to T3D's former 179$ and now free.
I do believe that if you just want to throw something together or have a big budget Unity is the way to go. If your budget is a little more tight and you actually care about learning how game development works, or if you are interested in having control of your engine, T3D is the way to go. If you want to make something thats seriously awesome but don't plan to earn a lot of money on it ( if any at all ) UDK is a viable option aswell.
But I have always thought that Torque is the best choice. That is just my opinion, but opinions is all I can give you :)
#12
u explain things nicely.
another things is cross platform. there r chances of having cross platform support in t3d. but that will take time. in that case unity is the best solution.
11/12/2012 (12:55 am)
lukas,well said.u explain things nicely.
another things is cross platform. there r chances of having cross platform support in t3d. but that will take time. in that case unity is the best solution.
#13
That was well put Lukas and helped a lot. I'm going with Torque. I can always learn Unity later to add to my skills. I think I like the more seemingly "raw" quality of T3D. Unity seems great but perhaps there is so many features in one place that it sort of overwhelms me. I'm sure as I gain experience in general it will help.
11/13/2012 (4:08 am)
Thanks guys,That was well put Lukas and helped a lot. I'm going with Torque. I can always learn Unity later to add to my skills. I think I like the more seemingly "raw" quality of T3D. Unity seems great but perhaps there is so many features in one place that it sort of overwhelms me. I'm sure as I gain experience in general it will help.
Torque Owner Lukas Joergensen
WinterLeaf Entertainment
2. Yes you can do that, I think there is some resources on the webpage that have done this. Basically I believe you can make anything in TorqueScript but it might be more complicated than making it in C++.
3. Thats completely up to you! I started with TGE when I began developing games, and back then I found it to be a pleasure to work with because it feels a bit like modding a game instead of writing from the ground and up. Which makes it very easy and very fast to get a prototype going and getting some visual feedback on your scripting!
Besides from the FPS Tutorial, I have worked a bit on my own tutorial serie which might help you get started using T3D!
I plan to have some spell casting scripts written in part 4 which I might get around writing when IPS Pro have been released.
Sincerely
Lukas Jørgensen
FuzzyVoid Studio