Looking for an androgyn Biped example
by Kyrah Abattoir · in Artist Corner · 11/07/2012 (11:10 am) · 13 replies
I would like to work on a male/female pair of models for a game project, the issue i have is that i would like to make them both share the same skeleton ( I thought about cannibalizing half life for it's citizen skeleton but it's probably not a good idea ).
Any ideas where i could find that, or how to create it?
I know creating a skeleton isn't exactly rocket science with modern tools, but it still takes some specific knowledge of propertions to achieve something that will not look completely awkward when used.
Any ideas where i could find that, or how to create it?
I know creating a skeleton isn't exactly rocket science with modern tools, but it still takes some specific knowledge of propertions to achieve something that will not look completely awkward when used.
About the author
3D artist, programmer, game designer, jack of all trades, master of none.
#2
My problem isn't really in building the skeleton itself, but striking a skeleton set of proportion that will look allright for a man and a woman, since i'm planning to build a single animation set, i'd like to build all my characters on the same skeleton.
Men and Women are very different when it comes to proportions and that's my issue, trying to strike a "middle ground" inbetween.
11/08/2012 (12:13 am)
I think i didn't expelain myself properly.My problem isn't really in building the skeleton itself, but striking a skeleton set of proportion that will look allright for a man and a woman, since i'm planning to build a single animation set, i'd like to build all my characters on the same skeleton.
Men and Women are very different when it comes to proportions and that's my issue, trying to strike a "middle ground" inbetween.
#3
The different mesh vs skeleton sizes will influence the weighted mesh differently and I suspect you wouldn't get the effect you're looking for.
Your modeling package will allow you to resize the skeleton anyway. You could have a single biped skeleton that can be used for any character size just by adjusting the the size of the entire set of bones as a unit.
11/08/2012 (5:05 am)
Kyrah, it's an interesting concept you have. You might be able to pull it off to some degree if the character sizes are not too great.(a few inches)The different mesh vs skeleton sizes will influence the weighted mesh differently and I suspect you wouldn't get the effect you're looking for.
Your modeling package will allow you to resize the skeleton anyway. You could have a single biped skeleton that can be used for any character size just by adjusting the the size of the entire set of bones as a unit.
#4
I'm studying the Half life 2 humanoid skeleton, i'm tempted to just use that skeleton as is but i'm not sure how bone structures are covered from a legal standpoint.
Another thing is that i was planning to use the max "biped", since that's what GG appears to be using for the soldier model, but the spine of the biped appears to be "in the middle" of the body, instead of being along the back.
I can deport it, no problem but then the biped looks weird and it might lead me to make stupid proportion errors.
Is that normal?
I think that thing is making me have cold feet, i haven't made a humanoid in a decade.
11/08/2012 (6:07 am)
I'm just planning to have all characters have the same height, wether they are male or female, lets say it's gonna be slightly tall ladies and slightly small lads.I'm studying the Half life 2 humanoid skeleton, i'm tempted to just use that skeleton as is but i'm not sure how bone structures are covered from a legal standpoint.
Another thing is that i was planning to use the max "biped", since that's what GG appears to be using for the soldier model, but the spine of the biped appears to be "in the middle" of the body, instead of being along the back.
I can deport it, no problem but then the biped looks weird and it might lead me to make stupid proportion errors.
Is that normal?
I think that thing is making me have cold feet, i haven't made a humanoid in a decade.
#5
The weird look may be from steps taken to attach the bones to the mesh. I can't imagine another "weird" look without pictures, I do know I can do my own weirdness right here, when I don't attach the bones to the mesh properly.
If you have a bone set up that you're importing to use for your mesh simply resize the entire set of bones to fit the character mesh and then attach them for animating.
I do not know the method of importing bones from something else for use with my mesh. I've tried a few auto-rigging programs that seem to work well, but I wasn't satisfied because I didn't learn how and why. Been making my own ever since. Keep in mind that I'm just using T3D for a hobby, it's for fun of learning so I have no pressure to get a game completed.
I think I have a set of Biped bones I can post a Pic of here.
I'll edit the post when I get the Pic ready.
[IMG]http://media.use.com/images/s_2/834313ffa9274f4204e4_1.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://media.use.com/images/s_2/834313ffa9274f4204e4_2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif[/IMG]
The first image is the character with the bones in the background that still need to be resized.
The second image is the Bones in the foreground while the wireframe of the character is in the background for reference while the bones are resized.
When the bones are sized properly, they are cut and pasted into the character layer and exported as a unit ... in my case.. to layout for animation.
11/08/2012 (2:33 pm)
Quote:I'm just planning to have all characters have the same height, wether they are male or female, lets say it's gonna be slightly tall ladies and slightly small lads.One biped set of bones for animation will do the job.
Quote:Another thing is that i was planning to use the max "biped", since that's what GG appears to be using for the soldier model, but the spine of the biped appears to be "in the middle" of the body, instead of being along the back.Generally, we want the bones in the center of the mesh. It makes for clean animation work. Though I have made some sloppy mesh with sloppy bone placement and it still works to some degree of sloppiness. :)
Quote:I can deport it, no problem but then the biped looks weird and it might lead me to make stupid proportion errors.
Is that normal?
I think that thing is making me have cold feet, i haven't made a humanoid in a decade.
The weird look may be from steps taken to attach the bones to the mesh. I can't imagine another "weird" look without pictures, I do know I can do my own weirdness right here, when I don't attach the bones to the mesh properly.
If you have a bone set up that you're importing to use for your mesh simply resize the entire set of bones to fit the character mesh and then attach them for animating.
I do not know the method of importing bones from something else for use with my mesh. I've tried a few auto-rigging programs that seem to work well, but I wasn't satisfied because I didn't learn how and why. Been making my own ever since. Keep in mind that I'm just using T3D for a hobby, it's for fun of learning so I have no pressure to get a game completed.
I think I have a set of Biped bones I can post a Pic of here.
I'll edit the post when I get the Pic ready.
[IMG]http://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif[/IMG]
[IMG]http://media.use.com/images/s_2/834313ffa9274f4204e4_2.jpg[/IMG]
[IMG]http://www.use.com/images/clicklarge3.gif[/IMG]
The first image is the character with the bones in the background that still need to be resized.
The second image is the Bones in the foreground while the wireframe of the character is in the background for reference while the bones are resized.
When the bones are sized properly, they are cut and pasted into the character layer and exported as a unit ... in my case.. to layout for animation.
#6
Has anyone an example of a commercial game that uses an unique set of skeleton proportions for males and females and isn't minecraft?
11/17/2012 (9:03 pm)
It appears i was wrong, male and female characters do not have the same skeleton in half life 2, there are small differences in proportions, i tried applying one to the other and vide versa, with terrible results.Has anyone an example of a commercial game that uses an unique set of skeleton proportions for males and females and isn't minecraft?
#7
Basic skeletons can be made if you cannot find a suitable skeleton replacement. Either way, you'd want to adjust the size of the skeleton bones to fit the mesh and to avoid some problems with deformation you'd want to use weight maps.
Here is a Pic of the Soldier from GG store, where I am placing a new skeleton into the mesh:
I'm not sure if this is helpful to you, I'm trying to reach out to you with an example and perhaps answer your post. :-)
p.S. What modeling software do you use?
11/18/2012 (7:41 pm)
Kyrah, I think you mean the Female has broader hips and perhaps the chest area?Basic skeletons can be made if you cannot find a suitable skeleton replacement. Either way, you'd want to adjust the size of the skeleton bones to fit the mesh and to avoid some problems with deformation you'd want to use weight maps.
Here is a Pic of the Soldier from GG store, where I am placing a new skeleton into the mesh:
I'm not sure if this is helpful to you, I'm trying to reach out to you with an example and perhaps answer your post. :-)
p.S. What modeling software do you use?
#8
Sure you can assign a new skeleton to a model but the shoulder/hip/elbow/knee joints must remain in the same general area for the joint to look right, and if the skeleton has different shoulder width and the like it's going to deform your model, which is fine, until the proportions simply look off (beyond the fact that the skinning will need to be fixed).
11/19/2012 (11:17 am)
Yeah but it appears that the main difference between characters of different gender in games is the shoulder width and arm length. For testing i assigned HL2 men to the women skeleton and vice versa, to check how much of a difference there was, and it was actually striking.Sure you can assign a new skeleton to a model but the shoulder/hip/elbow/knee joints must remain in the same general area for the joint to look right, and if the skeleton has different shoulder width and the like it's going to deform your model, which is fine, until the proportions simply look off (beyond the fact that the skinning will need to be fixed).
#9
(yeah i like studying valve's work, they even use a tool to convert animations from one bone scale structure to the other to conserve floor contact and hands on guns)
So far i haven't been able to come up with a skeleton that doesn't tell a specific gender so i'm slowly looking at the daunting task of having two.
11/19/2012 (11:25 am)
Here is an example of what i'm refering to, the skeletal structure is a bit broader for male characters when it comes to Valve.(yeah i like studying valve's work, they even use a tool to convert animations from one bone scale structure to the other to conserve floor contact and hands on guns)
So far i haven't been able to come up with a skeleton that doesn't tell a specific gender so i'm slowly looking at the daunting task of having two.
#10
but the same setup from one to the other with different scales is not an issue with retargeting, well not in my ventures anyway. just make your main rig with your dummy character and do your animations, then you can just edit your rig to fit what ever character you want. from what i have read your actually going to have the same size threw out. so model your character center it and then fit the bones to it making sure to keep your local axis the same as your main rig as well as the names of the bones.
07/12/2013 (11:35 am)
It looks like your using blender, so here is what i would do. when making a rig i use the same set up for both male and female characters and just use the model itself as a reference if you are just retargeting animations from one to another as long as the bone names are the same threw out the scale on the bones doesn't matter one way or the other. just make sure all your joints are on the same local rotation and stuff cause thats the most important part. but the same setup from one to the other with different scales is not an issue with retargeting, well not in my ventures anyway. just make your main rig with your dummy character and do your animations, then you can just edit your rig to fit what ever character you want. from what i have read your actually going to have the same size threw out. so model your character center it and then fit the bones to it making sure to keep your local axis the same as your main rig as well as the names of the bones.
#11
07/13/2013 (9:08 am)
Hey Waco, my problem is basically to make male and female characters completely identical so i can get my animation to connect perfectly between them. 
#12
If the skeleton is in a file that can be extracted from files that came with a game then it IS copyrighted. I would steer clear of that. Also, you might want to look at Oblivion skeletons. You might be able to get permission from someone who has made one from scratch. They might be willing to let you use their skeleton.
I would caution though. One of the major complaints about Oblivion is the Manblivion syndrome. Where they tried to make the same skeleton work for all humanoids, but it just makes women look like men. So you might have a similar issue. Just something to watch out for. The best people mods I have seen were the ones that replaced the women with more feminine type meshes and avoided the Manblivion problem. Though I think they still used the same skeleton. So maybe it will work fine.
Whatever you come up with it would be interesting to see. I am sure other game developers have and will run into this issue in the future.
07/13/2013 (11:42 am)
@Kyrah,If the skeleton is in a file that can be extracted from files that came with a game then it IS copyrighted. I would steer clear of that. Also, you might want to look at Oblivion skeletons. You might be able to get permission from someone who has made one from scratch. They might be willing to let you use their skeleton.
I would caution though. One of the major complaints about Oblivion is the Manblivion syndrome. Where they tried to make the same skeleton work for all humanoids, but it just makes women look like men. So you might have a similar issue. Just something to watch out for. The best people mods I have seen were the ones that replaced the women with more feminine type meshes and avoided the Manblivion problem. Though I think they still used the same skeleton. So maybe it will work fine.
Whatever you come up with it would be interesting to see. I am sure other game developers have and will run into this issue in the future.
#13
you could always checkout the Unreal Skeleton
there is Male and Female version of it
the easiest way to get one is by downloading Milkshape3D
and if you use Blender just make sure under addons that you enabled the Milkshape Importer (i highly doubt that there are copyright issues since
milkshape is coming with the unreal Skeletons, sidenote those are not for the latest unreal - if i remember right they are for UT2003)
from a Animation point of view
as long as both Armatures have the same amount of Bones and are named the same you can have 2 different Armatures that share the same animations
but are in bone lenght and placement slightly different
this way you could achieve
female like movement - well theory ;)
07/13/2013 (1:48 pm)
@Kyrahyou could always checkout the Unreal Skeleton
there is Male and Female version of it
the easiest way to get one is by downloading Milkshape3D
and if you use Blender just make sure under addons that you enabled the Milkshape Importer (i highly doubt that there are copyright issues since
milkshape is coming with the unreal Skeletons, sidenote those are not for the latest unreal - if i remember right they are for UT2003)
from a Animation point of view
as long as both Armatures have the same amount of Bones and are named the same you can have 2 different Armatures that share the same animations
but are in bone lenght and placement slightly different
this way you could achieve
female like movement - well theory ;)
Torque 3D Owner Scott Warren
Depending on the complexity of the character and whether it needs many bones or just a basic set, the time it takes to make a skeleton can be from about a few hours to perhaps a few days.
Of course this can be shortened to minutes if you have a rigging plugin for your modeling software, but then they may not be complete with every bone you'd want to use for animation, such as mouth, eyes, fingers or toes.
Depending on your software, try looking for a rigging plugin?