Texture over a mesh - understanding the concept
by Arik · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 10/19/2011 (6:13 am) · 13 replies
Hi all,
I'm new to Torque 3D and so far I'm trying to grasp how can I align my game development/design knowledge with this engine. (Mainly I have created levels with Unreal engine)
Things are different in Torque 3D design and I'm trying to understand the basics in each area.
Here is my question:
Lets say that I used the Sketch Editor and built a Mesh, now I want to somehow give it a texture.
But I also want to nicely align the texture over the mesh. Next thing, I opened the Decal Editor and I used it to do so.
Until this point all looks Ok, But as I was browsing the objects (in the Object Editor) I have noticed that the textures are standalone entities which means that,
if I want to move the mesh around I need to somehow move the texture as well.
Or do I miss something here?
Thank you,
-Arik
I'm new to Torque 3D and so far I'm trying to grasp how can I align my game development/design knowledge with this engine. (Mainly I have created levels with Unreal engine)
Things are different in Torque 3D design and I'm trying to understand the basics in each area.
Here is my question:
Lets say that I used the Sketch Editor and built a Mesh, now I want to somehow give it a texture.
But I also want to nicely align the texture over the mesh. Next thing, I opened the Decal Editor and I used it to do so.
Until this point all looks Ok, But as I was browsing the objects (in the Object Editor) I have noticed that the textures are standalone entities which means that,
if I want to move the mesh around I need to somehow move the texture as well.
Or do I miss something here?
Thank you,
-Arik
#2
10/19/2011 (9:36 am)
Constructor is still quite useful for level design imho, much easier to do the texture mapping in a csg brush style level editor than in 3dsmax. 
#3
10/19/2011 (9:56 am)
Think of the Sketch tool as a prototyping tool for the level designer (who then hands off the "sketched" mesh to an artist who will create the finished shape) and not as a creation tool. 
#4
I have found texturing in Max really easy if you resist the urge to unwrap. First convert your shape to an editable poly, then just drag the texture/material onto the face, and bam, there it is. Once you unwrap, it gets more complex.
I switched from Blender to Max recently, and for some reason I was expecting Max to have the same sort of learning curve that Blender had. Wow I was wrong about that. Having a boolean operator that works makes a huge difference.
Oh and autogrid!!! Best thing ever!
10/20/2011 (8:15 am)
Max is free if you are a student or unemployed with the provision that you can't sell anything you make with it.I have found texturing in Max really easy if you resist the urge to unwrap. First convert your shape to an editable poly, then just drag the texture/material onto the face, and bam, there it is. Once you unwrap, it gets more complex.
I switched from Blender to Max recently, and for some reason I was expecting Max to have the same sort of learning curve that Blender had. Wow I was wrong about that. Having a boolean operator that works makes a huge difference.
Oh and autogrid!!! Best thing ever!
#5
can u provide a link to this please? i was looking online and didnt see this anywhere.
thanks!
10/20/2011 (8:21 pm)
"Max is free if you are ... unemployed with the provision that you can't sell anything you make with it."can u provide a link to this please? i was looking online and didnt see this anywhere.
thanks!
#6
Well, I don't have any problem to create meshes using 3D Application (in my case Maya).
It's just that usually game level editors gives you a basic tool for creating the basic structure - like walls, etc.
In T3D I thought that I would find something similar.
Conclusion:
So, as I get from you guys.
For creating dynamic/static meshes I should use a 3D application, right?!
10/21/2011 (3:47 am)
Thank you all for your replies.Well, I don't have any problem to create meshes using 3D Application (in my case Maya).
It's just that usually game level editors gives you a basic tool for creating the basic structure - like walls, etc.
In T3D I thought that I would find something similar.
Conclusion:
So, as I get from you guys.
For creating dynamic/static meshes I should use a 3D application, right?!
#7
click on join now...
Open the combo box. Look at the bottom.
10/21/2011 (6:34 am)
http://usa.autodesk.com/adsk/servlet/pc/index?siteID=123112&id=17355061click on join now...
Open the combo box. Look at the bottom.
#8
Right. :)
Whilst BSP style DIF (Constructor) still has basic support (so that it can be converted into COLLADA via the file options in the Level Editor), it's best to avoid the whole brush-based geometry like the pox, and use "3D Modeling Application of your choice".
10/21/2011 (7:01 am)
Quote:
Conclusion:
So, as I get from you guys.
For creating dynamic/static meshes I should use a 3D application, right?!
Right. :)
Whilst BSP style DIF (Constructor) still has basic support (so that it can be converted into COLLADA via the file options in the Level Editor), it's best to avoid the whole brush-based geometry like the pox, and use "3D Modeling Application of your choice".
#9
I don't know if the way I am doing it is the "right" way... But what I do is make objects in Max. I make objects at the level of Wall, or door, or rock. Then I bring those objects into t3d.
I have one level where I was playing with and learning lighting where I brought about 4 different textured rocks in the game. Then I translated, scaled, rotated, and cloned those all over the place. They were fairly simple shapes with at most 20ish faces. I used visible mesh collision...
I did that with the idea that it would eventually break, and I would have to figure out the "proper" way to make it work. However, it ended up working for what I wanted to do with it. It gave me a cave complex that looked... Reminiscent of the caves that you see in Fable or Oblivion.
If I had made a huge cave complex like that in Max, then tried to bring it into t3d I am fairly certain it would not have worked.
But take everything I say about t3d with a grain of salt, as I am at "knows enough to be dangerous" on the learning curve.
But if I had to make a suggestion/complaint about T3d at this point, it is that it needs a library of starter objects, that are pre-textured with collision volumes. Then let us noobs go to town making a level with the world editor.
I also get the vibe from the t3d community that a lot of these techniques are secret sauce, if you will. Because as I look around a lot of actual commercial games seem to be made in Torque. Game programmers seem tight lipped about how they pull stuff off. But then NDA's are the industry standard I guess.
10/21/2011 (7:17 am)
Arik,I don't know if the way I am doing it is the "right" way... But what I do is make objects in Max. I make objects at the level of Wall, or door, or rock. Then I bring those objects into t3d.
I have one level where I was playing with and learning lighting where I brought about 4 different textured rocks in the game. Then I translated, scaled, rotated, and cloned those all over the place. They were fairly simple shapes with at most 20ish faces. I used visible mesh collision...
I did that with the idea that it would eventually break, and I would have to figure out the "proper" way to make it work. However, it ended up working for what I wanted to do with it. It gave me a cave complex that looked... Reminiscent of the caves that you see in Fable or Oblivion.
If I had made a huge cave complex like that in Max, then tried to bring it into t3d I am fairly certain it would not have worked.
But take everything I say about t3d with a grain of salt, as I am at "knows enough to be dangerous" on the learning curve.
But if I had to make a suggestion/complaint about T3d at this point, it is that it needs a library of starter objects, that are pre-textured with collision volumes. Then let us noobs go to town making a level with the world editor.
I also get the vibe from the t3d community that a lot of these techniques are secret sauce, if you will. Because as I look around a lot of actual commercial games seem to be made in Torque. Game programmers seem tight lipped about how they pull stuff off. But then NDA's are the industry standard I guess.
#10
I know what you are talking about since I'm developing in the open source environment for many years now.
I'm new to Torque and I knew from day 1 what it will take me to get to where I want to be.
As to your suggestion/comment:
I totally agree with you!
I went over the existing demo and docs (I read it all) which are helpful
but many topics, for me, remains blank.
I assume that as soon as I'll get that knowledge it would be out there...
Arik
10/22/2011 (6:40 am)
Greg, I know what you are talking about since I'm developing in the open source environment for many years now.
I'm new to Torque and I knew from day 1 what it will take me to get to where I want to be.
As to your suggestion/comment:
I totally agree with you!
I went over the existing demo and docs (I read it all) which are helpful
but many topics, for me, remains blank.
I assume that as soon as I'll get that knowledge it would be out there...
Arik
#11
If you look how the fallout games are made, the sdk is basically simmilar to torque's level editor, you place meshes the way you want them, and the artists end up building meshes like lego bricks they can assemble to achieve the desired effect, rather than one shot models.
11/14/2011 (11:28 pm)
@Arik: I'm no expert but i believe if a same mesh is loaded multiple time in memory, it's only using the memory once, so technically there is a certain advantage to recycling your rocks rather than building a huge, single mesh cave.If you look how the fallout games are made, the sdk is basically simmilar to torque's level editor, you place meshes the way you want them, and the artists end up building meshes like lego bricks they can assemble to achieve the desired effect, rather than one shot models.
#12
Making a giant cave of just one mesh or any complex (and concave) structure can cause a lot of necessary load on the computer as it calculates collision. You want to break it down like you did so instead of testing if the player is colliding with every face in the giant structure (even though there is early culling sometimes based on direction or location, they're still tested for culling itself), you test if the player is colliding with every face in just the smaller, nearby, subsegments of the map. Also I've found it better to use convex collision meshes when possible, they're much faster than per-poly testing and you can approximate most things with them, keeping glitches to a minimum on things like complex walls or small objects).
11/21/2011 (5:03 am)
Get Oblivion if you can, and the TES: World Editor to get a good glimpse at how the dungeons are created. They're actually just wall and floor segments that always stitch together perfectly. Usually each dungeon is named something like a_wall1_a, a_wall2_a, b_wall1_b, a_wall1_b, Where the first letter is the left side, the second the right side, and any matching letter will stich together (so you place a_wall1_a next to a_wall1_b next to b_wall1_b and it seems like a seamless wall.Making a giant cave of just one mesh or any complex (and concave) structure can cause a lot of necessary load on the computer as it calculates collision. You want to break it down like you did so instead of testing if the player is colliding with every face in the giant structure (even though there is early culling sometimes based on direction or location, they're still tested for culling itself), you test if the player is colliding with every face in just the smaller, nearby, subsegments of the map. Also I've found it better to use convex collision meshes when possible, they're much faster than per-poly testing and you can approximate most things with them, keeping glitches to a minimum on things like complex walls or small objects).
#13
I think that for some people, it's a fairly new concept to create any type of "prop" or interior with a 3d modeling studio. Not to say it's a new technique/work-flow, of course... But many people who come to T3D come from the modding community for other games that don't use it as much.
That said, I think that if you look at the larger modding communities, half-life and half-life 2 were extremely popular starting points for a lot of people who wanted to get into game design. Only recently has the mainstream modding community gotten into 3d model-based level design with games like Fallout 3 and Unreal3 engine.
There are a lot of tutorials out there for other engines, but I for one took a while to realize a lot of the things in other games carrier over to T3D, having come from the HL2 level design.
Relating to the original post here, I can say that texturing is one item that has been difficult to get used to. Going from simple "click-and-apply" texturing with simple alignment tools to UV unwrapping, layers, and materials... well I doubt I'm the only one who has a learning curve there. :P
11/22/2011 (7:15 pm)
This is actually something I was looking for recently in a post I made, asking for best practices for creating interiors.I think that for some people, it's a fairly new concept to create any type of "prop" or interior with a 3d modeling studio. Not to say it's a new technique/work-flow, of course... But many people who come to T3D come from the modding community for other games that don't use it as much.
That said, I think that if you look at the larger modding communities, half-life and half-life 2 were extremely popular starting points for a lot of people who wanted to get into game design. Only recently has the mainstream modding community gotten into 3d model-based level design with games like Fallout 3 and Unreal3 engine.
There are a lot of tutorials out there for other engines, but I for one took a while to realize a lot of the things in other games carrier over to T3D, having come from the HL2 level design.
Relating to the original post here, I can say that texturing is one item that has been difficult to get used to. Going from simple "click-and-apply" texturing with simple alignment tools to UV unwrapping, layers, and materials... well I doubt I'm the only one who has a learning curve there. :P
Associate Steve Acaster
[YorkshireRifles.com]
It's not really designed for "making anything". T3D doesn't use BSP style architecture (though technically the legacy code for it is still in there).
Object meshes are created in the "3D modeling app of your choice" (which usually depends on how rich or poor you are - people who can afford Max use Max ...), and then imported as Collada objects (or as straight native DTS objects if you're using older tech with available export plugins).
Read through the docs, especially the artist's section.