Second user vs pirates.

#1 I see where you are going with this, but think of this. The game has already been purchased initially. So the game studio has made their money, then (for instance) GameStop buys the game back (at a much lower price) from the owner of the once newly purchased game. Then they put it back on the shelves and someone buys it and then GameStop makes money to help keep them in business, earn back what they paid for the used game, and pay their employees.

Whereas pirates do not pay anything and only help increase DRM's and other restrictions on games that people who pay for their games complain about. And no company makes money, the game studios just spend more placing in these restrictions on newer games, raising the price of a game and increasing piracy.

So who's the real problem....

#2 Depends on your ultimate goal as a developer!

For some, success is measured by the number of players.

For some, success is measured by the number paying customers.


Now, for an indie with little starting capital and who has a primary income outside of development, the sheer number of players on the game should take priority. A small percentage of a HUGE player base spending money can be a great deal of additional income. This is how Zynga and their like operate, and it's a great plan for the little guy.

If you're a developer that has to rely on products being sold to stay alive, you can't afford to have more 2nd/pirates than paying customers. You need find ways to promote first hand sales, squeeze even a marginal amount out of 2nd users, and demote piracy.


I'll say that 2nd users are not worse than pirates. Pirates more or less never intended to give any money for your product. 2nd users just don't like your price, or are unaware/don't care of the used status of their purchase. Never underestimate the power of confused/crazed mothers at the mall gamestop on black Friday.

Pirates send the message, "Thanks, suckers!"
2nd users send the message, "For the right price..."

One of these groups you can easily guide back to line your pockets with gold, the other, not so much.

#3 Its interesting to see where this is going, i'm willing to bet however that the overwhelming majority of people in these forums have pirated at least 1 game in the past.

As far as that goes i find that far less distasteful than the estimated 70% of 3ds max users that are using max illegally or the estimated 80%+ of the photoshop users for example, but thats an entirely different topic.

I disagree partially that 100% of pirates wouldnt buy the game if the price is right, i think the price point is valid, and what ive been hearing from people who do have access to people who know portal sales figures is that the ever decreasing steam and whatever else prices are driving sales upwards, i'm pretty sure at least some of those are in the pirate camp.

Its clear not just from the only 2 opinions here but from elsewhere that people like to compartmentalise and slot groups into good and evil. I guess is the human desire to have people beneath them who knows.

I do know that as far as any game I'm likely to produce, id rather see people download it from piratebay than buy it pre-owned from gamestop or whatever simply because I refuse to believe that anybody who buys my game but doesn't pay me for it is any better than a pirate, if you are playing my game and I don't get any pay I don't consider you a customer its as simple as that.

If I cant profit from my work why should anybody else, i'm not the only one who thinks this way, pretty much all larger publishing houses are now shipping games with codes that are one use only, serial numbers that cannot be reused and so on, sure you can crack your games, but in the minds of the self appointed morally superior thats the same as piracy.

I'm not taking any high ground here btw, i have bought 2nd user games to play, ive even pirated games to play, i frequently download cracks and hacks to bypass CD checks and DRM, in fact almost every game i own thats not in steam, is hacked and cracked. I buy games I never play to support some companies. I have in the past spent a fortune on games only to have them turn out to be utter shit, but there's bullshit licensing laws that state you cant take opened games back, but that's another topic. I will find a copy every game I buy for 360 that will also run on the PC sometimes to just check out the differences but sometimes to play simply because I refuse to pay twice for the same game, this is also a very different conversation too.

#4 I understand your point of view blood, in a lot of pirated copies there was NEVER a possible sale in the first place, while on a second hand copy you could have made a sale.

#5 As a seller of ~anything~ you have to figure out how to get the people who will pay to give you their money and not worry about the people who won't.

As a seller trying to make a living, the ethics and legality simply don't matter.

I am reminded of the serenity prayer...

God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.


Not that I am a religious person, just... people are gonna do what they do and no amount of legal or ethical discussion on the internet is going to change that.

Having said that, Ubisoft can suck a bag of ducks.

#6 I like your statement that buying pre-owned games is at least as bad as pirating.

Because something is legal it doesn't have to be right.

Like you said, buying second hand games doesn't give any more profit to the developer/publisher and I think that is a bad thing.

With entertainment media like music, movies or computer games I believe it is the experience you pay for. On top of that an additional profit can be made by providing merchandise to your customers. The DVD box is simply a way to deliver the product just like a download stream is.

If you buy and download a game and give that game to somebody else so you can both play the same game it is considered bad (and maybe even considered pirating). Instead, if you give the same game to the same person after you have finished and deïnstalled it isn't wrong anymore? What if you ask money for it, will it be a good thing to do then? And what if it ins't a download but a DVD box, does that make it any different?

My opinion is that it is all bad, because the developer doesn't get paid for an experience that is participated by more than one person.

Because it is difficult to see that selling second hand games is a bad thing to do legal wise I think that game developers should be creative in finding a solution where they get their share of money.

#7 I think the biggest difference is that a second hand game represents a first hand game sale that you get a cut of as the developer, whereas a pirated game represents a usage of your game where no money was made.

Personally, I think being able to worry about second hand sales of my game is a *good* problem to have =P It means you've made some money already =)

#8 Ok, how about "hand-me-down" games? I buy a game, I play the game, I pass the game to my daughter who plays the game. Only one of us plays the game at a time.

Also, I'm that dork who bought 4 copies of Neverwinter Nights so I could play it with my two kids and have a DM client, too....

What about second owners on cars? The manufacturer sees no money from that sale either. You're putting Goodwill and the Salvation Army in there as worse than pirates. How far down the line do you think you're entitled to make money off of the same unit? You could buy back your game and sell it used yourself, thus getting that second sale, third sale, etc., but unless you do this you have little room to complain. Steam has marshalled this in a way, your game is attached to your account - you've only leased the right to play it, not actually bought it.

Which leads me to another thing I've noticed in a few EULAs. Some games are bound in the EULA such that you are not the owner of your copy of the media, you are only paying for the right to use/view it. Such right may or may not be transferable.

I personally don't like to buy anything used. If it's defective I have recourse, and when it's old I am familiar with its various issues and failings. When you buy something used you have no recourse and you have no idea what might be wrong with it.

#9 Weve had this discussion about EULAs, as a resident of the EU any portion of an EULA that goes against my rights is automatically invalid, also on that note i'm legally allowed to reverse engineer my own personal copy of any software for my own personal uses.

As said before, publishes are spending money to make 2nd user games useless, serial codes that cant be registered for official updates more than once, DLC content that ships on release day in the DVD box and so on.

You're putting Goodwill and the Salvation Army in there as worse than pirates. If they sell 2nd user games, yes, yes i am.

While we are at it, lets add places like blockbusters who rent games, Public libraries and their fiction stocks. I dont like any of these organisations just because they have the 'legal right' to stop authors making money doesn't make them right.

And just to add again a note vs your last comment, in the UK and possibly the wider EU, even 2nd user purchases are subject to certain rights, if it doesn't work you can take it back used or not, sure the 'warranty' period is shorter but its still there.