What percentage of the average players are "Number peoples"?

#1 Well this can turn out quiet philosophical.
Maybe every player is partially a "Number person" and partially not.
Because every player wants to understand the mechanics of the game, e.g. How do you know, that you got a better hit ratio with mp5 pack?
So, many numbers give you an overview on what's going on the game.
At the other hand, you might not wanna think about Sudoku when concentrating on your headshot performance.

Isn't it actually popular now to leave out the numbers? Like not having a hud that tells you the health status in numbers, but rather having some visual response, like the screen turning red etc

The player might not need the mathematical formula to play a game, but you could alienate that part of your userbase if they cannot understand the game mechanics anymore and get additionally confused by "random and pseudo random factors".

I guess you are referring to MMO-RPG dedicated forums, where user talk about leveling their characters. It would make sense to me if that specific userbase would use that kind of arguments, since it would be the ultimate way to improve the leveling process, which is meant to be slow enough to keep the people busy until the next add-on.

#2 Not only in mmo , you get this also in games like DotA, Mount and blade, Diablo.

I know that simlply hiding the number isn't enough because dedicated gamers woulkd eventually run a parser of some kind and reverse engineer the numbers. There are ways to make it much more difficult , but if the players figure out that my server is purposely sending their client gauge values that are salted with a +-5% modifier everytime they change they might take it that i'm being hostile to them?

As for my mp5 skin example, well i simply know that i tend to play better with a silenced weapon than with a non silenced, even if it's only a cosmetic change, seems that the sound, and the weapon shake onscreen was enough to make me play differently.

#3 Now i see, I misunderstood. I don't think you would loose your userbase by that.

In my opinion it's actually a good idea to do that, since cracking the math behind it will harm the leveling process as it is planed by the developer. And it kills the illusion, which you might refer to.

#4 I'm fine with players sharing their experience with the game, but i would prefer that it remains subjective, rather than always backed up by math.

After all when it comes to medieval weaponry there are many many types and style, each fits a specific purpose, it doesn't necessarly means that one of them is vastly superior to another.

Many players tend to try to jump directly to the "best" equipment, the logic being that it's less expensive in the end to spare your money to get the very best equipment than to get there by successive upgrades.

But what if, what is the very best wasn't immediately clear? A golden armor might cost you an arm and a leg but it's merely a parade piece and won't last very much in combat.
Now this would probably lose players if they are forced to make costly mistakes to know what is good and what is not but it could be hinted more subtly, and with a hint of logic, like for example:

-A pretty weapon will cost more but doesn't necessarly perform better.
-A steel blade will generally be of simmilar durability as another steel weapon
-The heavier the material used for a war hammer, the harder it will hit.

Of course for this you have to have a somewhat logical art direction :D

(Not necessarly realistic, but if you create a certain connection between the appearance of an item and it's "secret" stats you have to stick to it)

#5 I think Nintendo has used a lot of the visual response "style", which I think is more and more popular within development and gaming today.

But are you referring to free-to-play MMOs, with DLC to buy? I think that could become confusing when the golden sword is less effective than the silver one.
Maybe you can use descriptions (without numbers), that warn and inform the costumer about strength and other abilities comparing the items that can be bought.

Quote:Many players tend to try to jump directly to the "best" equipment, the logic being that it's less expensive in the end to spare your money...

At the other hand the people don't want to experiment with their (real) money. If this is about dlc to buy...

#6 Nono this wasn't related to DLC or item shops, sorry for being too vague, i ment ingame currency!

#7 I see. Then it should work without a problem. I'm not a big classic-style rpg gamer, 'couse I prefer realtime mechanics, but when looking at DotA it reminds me a bit of Age of Empires. And that had this great working upgrade system with basically no numbers.

Seeing that as a basis, I can imagine a RPG using a visual upgrade-system with a nice little description here and there, which can be used as narrative as well, e.g.
Thors hammer that was blessed with lightning when he saved the son of Zeus, or something like that ;)
So that's the most suitable weapon to equip in the land of the evil shadow XDD
Now I'm in the mood, haha.

#8 Many players, especially of RPG type games, love shortcuts! This isn't just for combat gear, but for crafting and selling, they want to know what method will get them the highest gain for the least amount of time invested. Time after all is the ultimate cost in a game, and the more game you get out of a session, the better your time was spent.

I'm more guilty of this when playing games built around numbers, than I am when playing more skill/twitch style games. If I know a pistol, regardless of style or "rank" can kill in 4 or less shots, those numbers don't even register. Fire-fire-fire, until hes dead and reload. I'll only fret over the numbers if my ammo is really low. However, if gear is a major part of the game, with all of these stats and buffs, I'm only going to want the stuff with the biggest numbers adding to my overall damage over time (or resistance to it). And you better believe that I'm hitting google to find out what I should be equipping so that I don't spend too much time trying to figure it out with trial and error.

#9

Quote:
they want to know what method will get them the highest gain for the least amount of time invested

Rather like real life, then. ;)

#10 @Brian - Funny, I alway check my ammo budget. How many bullets of a shotgun or MG does it take for which enemy (singleplayer)... :)

#11 This topic is getting some interesting developments :p

Let me present a real analogy, project yourself in the past, you are a knight passing order for a sword to a local blacksmith, then what will be your criteria for choosing from the type of swords he is proficient to manufacture for you?

-You would probably want a type that you have been trained with rather than a model that is unknown to you.
-If money is no problem you might want it to be as perfectly balanced as possible.
-Serrated and "lace looking" blades are not exactly battle proven but in real life they where used to inspire fear to the enemy. (In large armies the simplest and purest form of the weapon where used, not only due to price, but because they where the ones that where the most consistent and the most durable)

I'm making this analogy because in real life, weapons efficiency is a much more difficult concept than just adding numbers.

Another example would be if we put an m16 vs an ak47, which one is the most letal? they can both kill in a single shot, one is more reliable than the other, but the other tend to be more accurate, ultimately it's down to the user's feeling, according to Mikhail Kalashnikov in Vietnam American soldiers where throwing away their M16 rifles for the AKs of the vietnamese soldiers.

What i'm trying to say is that we as game designers have to make computers swallow our simulation models, and that require using a lot of numbers, but that doesn't mean the players need to use those same numbers to enjoy our games.

What happened to experience, word of mouth (not backed up by science, but by reputation) and gut feeling in video games?

But i guess that for this we also need more items that act as some sort of "horizontal" diversity, rather than focusing on "vertical" upgrades.

This is my gripe personally, there are so many games where a sword is a sword and a gun is a gun, where it's just a matter of picking which one is the very best sword because there ultimately is only one kind of sword with stats that are better and worse.

To take the chivalry example again if you glance at the pole weapon pages on wikipedia you can see that, of course some are straight upgrades, but a lot of them are designed to fill a specific role or are from a specific cultural group.

This could be interesting, a fictional world with different "regions" where the local production is different from the rest:
-Moist inlands with castles and Knights in armor.
-Ports and coastal cities where equipment tend to be lighter and suited for fighting on ships (and not drown like a rock)
-Frozen tundras with a warmer style (furs and pelts) borrowed from the vikings.
-Dry sun burned deserts with very light, non metallic equipment to protect the wearer from the sun more than the swords.

The "highest gain for least amount of work" behavior is probably because most rpgs thrive on the leveling and character building process which tend to be a rather uninteresting journey (it's not always the case, in the Fallout serie, i find the journey so interesting that i never had a character reach max level... or the end of the game because i always find stuffs to do and places to visit, i guess mods help a lot)

#12 Kyrah, our game will not be revealing numbers to the fans. We will be using subjective descriptions instead. So if a player creates an object, they will know if the quality is poor or excellent, and some descriptions in between but they won't have numbers attached. Since our game is is not level based, the players will advance by using their skills. Rather than earning XP or advancing to another level, they will gradually be able to do new things and create new items of better quality. Achievements will be marked by progression through a Guild (medieval type, not player guild) or through other means. Even our character creation methods will not use the numbers. Players will choose their stats based on a series of questions and the final stats will be invisible to them...but will still affect their skills.

Since our game is for role players it is important to us that rather than hearing "I have a 34 in armorsmith" we hear something like "I can make really high quality armor".

Yes, someone will probably try to figure out the numbers, because they do exist, but what they see in game will be the descriptions so most players will use those in conversation. Our fans are very enthusiastic about this idea and while I know some feel a bit uncomfortable about that loss of control, they all seem willing to give it a try.

In pen and paper gaming, we call those 'numbers people' min/max players. :) They spend hours figuring out what stats to give their characters and try to calculate the numbers for every move they make. It makes for dull gaming for the rest of us!

Your fictional world sounds very much like the one we are making. :)

#13 Yes i know about min/max players, they are also the peoples who make web apps like those:
http://infinitum.dyndns.org/crpg/calc.htm

I would also like to add that i feel a lot of games are basically "begging" for being analysed and dissected, when in so many rpgs every level the player has to choose which characteristics he wished to upgrade, it will encourage peoples to plan their charcter building, hence why i'm also partial to the automatic stats training where your character automatically improve as he does relevant activities.

My examples are just that, examples, i'm still undecided on many things about how my "ideal" game should be and my focus is currently on a much more modest game (when/if i get to complete it).

#14 I absolutely agree, Kyrah.

And your examples are great examples but yes ambitious, which is why we are scaling back, building in stages rather than everything at once.

#15 Personally I'm the sort of player who chooses a weapon based on feel and cosmetics. Even sometimes to the point of knowingly putting myself at a disadvantage. For example I tend to like machine guns, even though generally speaking they're less accurate than other weapons in a game. I mostly play single player games so winning, losing and statistics don't matter outside of my head.

Things are a bit different if you're playing a multiplayer game and your mates can see your hit rate and so on. Then there's more social pressure to choose the best and play efficiently. As I get older I'm enjoying games just as much but I'm spending less and less time discussing them on forums. It depends on the game but forums aren't always a good gauge for what the average player is concerned with.

#16 I am aware of a friend of mine who would not pick up a certain miniatures game, even though he greatly admired the miniatures. When I asked him why, it turned out it was because the line did not have a published manual which centralized all the stats for the units and he absolutely refused to get involved in a system in which anything would be introduced into a game which he hadn't studied up on and memorized beforehand.

It always struck me as peculiar, but then I am sort of the polar opposite. I'll buy miniatures and paint them because "cool minis". I'll play games with hidden numbers--I basically trust the game designer to "envelope" the design so even an unknown piece going into play wouldn't unbalance the whole game. But with my friend it is not so, for whatever reason.

I'm old D&D... I'm good with arbitrary numbers fixed to a range to generate characters, such as you get with 3d6. My friend will only play point-buy systems.

I believe, if one is committed to a particular design and can reason out why, one should just let go of that segment of the audience who, given the game design, will never play your game "on principle"--this of course wrapped itself within "general enough to attract an audience in the first place."

Trying to please all audiences as well as the one the game was built for is a lot of resources to dedicate, particularly if the designer isn't enjoying creating the systems required to please that audience.

Just be sure that piece A is approximately equal to piece B is approximately equal to piece C and that no one has an automatic advantage in all situations and I think an audience will be found with the hidden numbers which best suit your preference.

#17 On the pen and paper note i recall that my characters stats sheets usually where setup in about what... 15-20 minutes.

While my brother and his friends would spend sometimes the whole first session ( 4 hours usually ) tweaking and fine tuning their character and finding the most optimal use of their initial gold pieces.


What is a point buy system if i may ask?

#18 I know very few people who can set up a DnD character sheet in 20 minutes. :) I suppose its possible but I can't even do that and I care little about my stats as long as they suit the character's personality and background.

A point buy system is when you have so many points and can distribute them among the various stats. You can find a description in your DnD player handbook. The other option for creating a character is to roll the dice.

Netwyrm, I agree completely with you. You cannot please everyone so you need to choose your niche and create the game to fill that niche, especially with a smaller Indie game. Large companies can make more expansive games and they will capture the masses. But players who want a more specialized game style will look among the independent games. I think the number of people looking for something more to their individual taste is growing as players tire of games like WoW and learn what they like and dislike about MMOs. Many of the MMO players are becoming more sophisticated as they mature, both as people and as gamers.

#19 Teila gives a nice succinct example of point buy. In pen and pencil terms, Hero System is a very good example of a point-buy system (this is the game Champions Online is ostensibly based on, but they actually threw out the rule system for the video game--too complicated).

The idea of point buy is to get the player to consciously make tradeoffs between game abilities by forcing them to allocate a limited pool of points between a set of characteristics, all of which individually have great mechanical impact on the game.

For example, if there are two categories Strong and Tough, the tradeoff made by putting more points into Strong will allow the character to do proportionally more damage in combat than if the points had been allocated to Tough, but conversely the player will take much more damage if hit than if the reverse choice had been made. Then the designer leaves it up to the player to find the right "balance" for their character's needs.

#20 Oh this. I didn't knew the exact term so i wasn't sure.