MMO "Kits", Praire Games, and www.MMOWorkshop.com

#1 Woah, Prairie Games? Haven't seen you guys for years! I forgot that the MMOWorkshop even existed...

#2 Randel, I'm not sure I understand. Please
- State what the violation is
- State who you accuse of violating your license
- Explain what part of your license is violated
- Show proof of the violation
You might agree that pointing fingers at a hundred people throwing unexplained accusations around is bad advertisement for both MMOWorkshop and Prairie Games. So let's rectify that.

#3 Also the site has been down for years then all of a sudden it comes back...out of the blue so to speak.

#4 Oh I see, you probably meant this thread.

I still don't see how Associates are "especially" violating your license. Please explain, so we can help you solve the problem.

#5

Quote:
especially on the Associate side of the forum

?
Yes, please explain and clarify why the Associates were called out specifically, because this seems like blind finger pointing to me.

I know that a few Associates may be working on a MMO type game, but there has been no mention of the above mentioned MMO Kit, Prairie Games, or MMOWorkshop at all in the Associates Forum. If we can help straighten things out, we will. In fact you'll find that many of us are mighty particular for proper licensing and such.

#6 Konrad, others, thanks for the feedback.

Just a quick note: A few folks misunderstand the phrase "Open Source." The "open source movement" has created an army of people who think it means free-to-do-whatever-you-want - including redistribute or even sell.

TorquePowered engine products are Open Source. That means, merely, the source is available. TP keeps source access behind a one-time fee per seat license and grants royalty-free binary distribution (Thank you TP!).

MMOWorkshop's Torque MMOKit is also Open Source - but not kept behind an access fee - and like Toruqe, grants royalty-free binary distribution. Other than that one difference, we use a similiar license as TorquePowered.

Anyone re-distributing/re-posting any of the TPs product publicly in source form, or art packs, tools, etc. would be in violation of TP's license. Anyone publicly hosting MMOWOrkshop's Torque MMOKit publicly in source form is in violation of Prairie Games' license.

Michael, just double check any of the resources being hosted on the Associates side of the forum. There have been hostings of part or all of the Torque MMOKit, in source form, with the Prairie Games copyright removed on the Associate side of the forum. Some of it is being addressed now so you'll most likely see hosted links changing that you never knew were Prairie Games property.

Anyone who received their Torque MMOKit directly from www.MMOWorkshop.com, enjoy and hope to see your MMO efforts live soon!

Hope this helps.

Randel Reiss
Director Product Development
Prairie Games, Inc.
RandelR@PrairieGames.com
http://www.PrairieGames.com

#7 I have no opinion on this topic - except to mention that neither your product nor Torque are Open Source.

They are Closed Source - you might be confusing your customers by using the wrong terminology.

Open Source means the source is completely open. Closed Sourced means the source is controlled or licensed, if you need a license to view the source its Closed Source regardless of whether you get source code or not.

#8

Quote:Copyright (c) 2007, Prairie Games, Inc

All rights reserved.

Redistribution and use in binary form, with or without modification, is permitted provided that the following conditions are met:

1. Any use, other than private evaluation, of the source code or included binaries requires a valid Torque Game Engine and ArcaneFX license from GarageGames, Inc. These licenses are available for purchase at http://www.garagegames.com

2. Redistributions of source code must conform to the provisions set forth in the Torque Game Engine and ArcaneFX EULA provided by GarageGames, Inc.

* Redistributions in binary form must conform to the provisions set forth in the Torque Game Engine and ArcaneFX EULA provided by GarageGames, Inc.

* Redistributions of source code must retain the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer.

* Redistributions in binary form must reproduce the above copyright notice, this list of conditions and the following disclaimer in the documentation and/or other materials provided with the distribution.

* Neither the name of Prairie Games Inc, GarageGames Inc, Faust Logic, nor the names of its contributors may be used to endorse or promote products derived from this software without specific prior written permission.

THIS SOFTWARE IS PROVIDED BY THE COPYRIGHT HOLDERS AND CONTRIBUTORS "AS IS" AND ANY EXPRESS OR IMPLIED WARRANTIES, INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANTABILITY AND FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE ARE DISCLAIMED. IN NO EVENT SHALL THE COPYRIGHT OWNER OR CONTRIBUTORS BE LIABLE FOR ANY DIRECT, INDIRECT, INCIDENTAL, SPECIAL, EXEMPLARY, OR CONSEQUENTIAL DAMAGES (INCLUDING, BUT NOT LIMITED TO, PROCUREMENT OF SUBSTITUTE GOODS OR SERVICES; LOSS OF USE, DATA, OR PROFITS; OR BUSINESS INTERRUPTION) HOWEVER CAUSED AND ON ANY THEORY OF LIABILITY, WHETHER IN CONTRACT, STRICT LIABILITY, OR TORT (INCLUDING NEGLIGENCE OR OTHERWISE) ARISING IN ANY WAY OUT OF THE USE OF THIS SOFTWARE, EVEN IF ADVISED OF THE POSSIBILITY OF SUCH DAMAGE.

I don't think you are abiding by your own license agreement.

#9 Tony, thank you for the feedback. This really isn't very complicated. From MMOWorkshop's license that you reposted:

2. Redistributions of source code must conform to the provisions set forth in the Torque Game Engine...

In Torque Game Engine license, the key grant is:

2.1.1. develop and distribute in object code format only

and also in that license, the key "you shall not:"

3.2.1. Distribute the Software (or any part thereof)...

Now it may have caused confusion for us to tether our license to the then Garage Games TGE license at the time and maybe we can start to address that. If you look on www.MMOWorkshop.com's top catagory of News and Announcements you'll find a 2-year old License Clarity sticky post that might help.

Possibly the asterick comment we have "*Redistributions of source..." was mistaken for a grant?

Thank you, again, for your comments.

Randel Reiss
Director Product Development
Prairie Games, Inc.
mailto:RandelR@PrairieGames.com
http://www.PrairieGames.com

#10 While you are more than welcome to change your license, the files that I downloaded back in 2007 I will be using the original license as well as the original intent of the license:

http://www.torquepowered.com/community/blogs/view/13391

The intention of the original license was to make the MMO Kit be licensed with a BSD style license (which effectively means you can redistribute source as long as you retain the copyright).

The Torque code can only be redistributed and used according to the Garage Games license.

I will assume that you are changing the meaning of your license henceforth and I will not download any updates.

Thanks for the notice of the license change.

#11 @Randel - The thread in question is in the Torque 3D private forum, not the Associate forum. I have complete faith that every single one of our Associates is upholding the EULAs they are operating under. More so, there is even a thread where they help us track down violators.

Again, the reasons you cannot see that thread is because it is only accessible to Torque 3D Professional owners. Surely someone on your team owns a license? I mean, I saw on your forums that there is a T3D branch of the MMO Kit. I have to guess that makes heavy use of T3D's source code, so someone on your team can look at the private forums...right?

#12 Tony, and Michael, thank you for the replies.

Tony, the Torque MMOKit license wording on www.MMOWORKSHOP.com has not changed one word since it was first posted in 2007. Please consider it THE license.

Michael, I'm sorry to say that Prairie Games has not licensed Torque 3D due to licensing restrictions. Please contact us through www.MMOWorkshop.com or me privately if you have questions on that topic.

For clarity I'm going to try an additional explanation that I hope helps:

Quote:Prairie Games is maintaining exclusive public distribution of the Torque MMOKit source on www.MMOWorkshop.com.

Again, thank you both, and others, for your support.

Randel Reiss
Director Product Development
Prairie Games, Inc.
mailto:RandelR@PrairieGames.com
http://www.PrairieGames.com

#13 Randel - I think you might need to hire a lawyer and discuss your licensing with them as it sounds like you don't understand the terms of your own license.

Until you consult with and revise your license I think you will find that the actions going on are well within the terms and it will be difficult if not impossible to win a legal case over it.

Best of luck to you!

#14 @Randel - Either you are retaining a BSD style license or you're not. You can't have it both ways.

Either everyone is allowed to redistribute the source as specified under the original license, or you are modifying the license, at which point everyone still retains the original right to redistribute the MMO Kit source code as it stood up to the point of the license change.

Retroactively modifying the license isn't legal.

While I think the MMO Kit source code isn't worth much, I do think that protecting the rights of those using it is worth a lot.

#15 [21:13] <SgtFlame|Zen> heya hatboyzero|Zen
<hatboyzero|Zen>how goes, SgtFlame|Zen?
[21:14] <SgtFlame|Zen> eh, fighting battles better left alone, but I can't help it :P
The guy that bought out Prairie Games is now trying to renege on his BSD style license
[21:15] he claims that nobody can redistribute source... modified or not
[21:16] http://www.torquepowered.com/community/forums/viewthread/122733/1
<hatboyzero|Zen> well, if someone has a previous version of his source with the BSD style license, he's SOL, right? At least on anything prior to him changing the license, at least...
<SgtFlame|Zen> That's what I said... but he claims that he's not changing his license and prior licensees cannot redistribute source
[21:17] <hatboyzero|Zen> he's full of xxxx, pardon my french -- and his argument won't stand up in any court, so...
[21:18] <azaezel> presumably, there was no clause in the original agreement to the effect that there could be retroactive application of changes. guessing you kept a copy?
<SgtFlame|Zen> I kept a copy... not that it's worth the expense of keeping it on my hard drive
[21:19] <azaezel> well then, print it on out, and break it off sideways :P
[21:22] <SgtFlame|Zen> I just dislike bullies... his steaming pile of crap software isn't worth anything
[21:25] <azaezel> heh. now tell us how ya really feel tony. (quite agreed of course on the legal point. never got around to snagging the kit to have an opinion there)
[21:28] <SgtFlame|Zen> hehe... sorry... I'm passionate about things like this :P
<hatboyzero|Zen> no, I'm right there with you...

Sorry, I couldn't resist... Randel, I think you should reconsider your position.

#16 Please use www.MMOWorkshop.com or my e-mail, and not this thread, for any further communication with us.

Thank you, all, for your feedback.

Randel Reiss
Director Product Development
Prairie Games, Inc.
mailto:RandelR@PrairieGames.com
http://www.PrairieGames.com

#17 No thanks... this is a public dispute and I'd prefer to keep it public. If you want to answer my allegations of you reneging on your license, post here.

Otherwise, I'll assume you're backing down.

#18 I'm sorry Randel, but you made the accusations openly right here, in this thread.

You strike me as someone with relatively good manners, so it is only natural for me to expect a formal apology from you for your accusations - at the very same place where the original post was made, and not at some remote location.

#19 We had this original conversation 2 or 3 years ago Tony and it ended up driving some members from the community away (including one that was driving things forward after Josh E. left). Needless to say, these types of events have pretty much left the community dead (not to mention the website being abandoned for over a year).

#20 Such a shame to see things havent changed, it had so much potential and so much support.

PS: In case I ever need what I gained the rights to use back then, I will as others stick to the license agreement that followed the content, not something brewed up later.