If the players refuse to immerse themselve in a game, is it the game's fault?
by Kyrah Abattoir · in Game Design and Creative Issues · 04/26/2010 (9:08 am) · 12 replies
This is another little thing that irks me, i have a long history of video gaming and i have played a lot of mmorpgs and fps games that weren't strictly "run and gun" fast action packed deathmatches, yet i always had a lot of trouble finding peoples that actually "experience" the game, rather than just play it.
There are many AAA titles (not so much these days unfortunately) that where pushing forward the concept of immersion, (in First person games) making you feel the inertia of your character, making you see your character's feet and hands or any other means of making you feel "there".
I can't blame peoples for not playing "my way" but it seems that even with a rich universe and a detailed perception of "self" in the game, as soon as it is a multiplayer game, peoples seems to instantly revert to being "out of character".
Of course, the scenario in Singleplayer games contribute a lot to the immersion, but what is WRONG in multiplayer games? I recall a couple times playing an mmorpg and having my eyes focused SOLELY on the minimap for a whole play session. What are multiplayer games doing that literally "eject" the player from inside the game and reduce him to a mere "button pushing spectators" ?
Now this is assuming it's the game doing something wrong, but that's because it's easier to fix the game than to fix people's behaviors.
Now I'm asking, is it a gender thing? Western culture tend to expect from men to be secretive about their feelings and to avoid presenting weaknesses, I could understand that possibility, playing your character could betray you in some way and show some kind of weakness in your "though guy" armor.
There is also some sort of stigmatization of "roleplayers" in mmorpgs who are seen by a good part of the playing community as "D&D nerds" and other fancy names. This could explain why some peoples actively refuse any personal implications in a game and are fine with being permanently Out of character, because, for them, their character essentially does not exist beyond it's ability to kill monsters and other players.
So tell me what you think? is it possible to create a multiplayer/massively multiplayer game that would literally encourage the players to immerse themselves into the game universe? And if yes, what should be done better/differently?
There are many AAA titles (not so much these days unfortunately) that where pushing forward the concept of immersion, (in First person games) making you feel the inertia of your character, making you see your character's feet and hands or any other means of making you feel "there".
I can't blame peoples for not playing "my way" but it seems that even with a rich universe and a detailed perception of "self" in the game, as soon as it is a multiplayer game, peoples seems to instantly revert to being "out of character".
Of course, the scenario in Singleplayer games contribute a lot to the immersion, but what is WRONG in multiplayer games? I recall a couple times playing an mmorpg and having my eyes focused SOLELY on the minimap for a whole play session. What are multiplayer games doing that literally "eject" the player from inside the game and reduce him to a mere "button pushing spectators" ?
Now this is assuming it's the game doing something wrong, but that's because it's easier to fix the game than to fix people's behaviors.
Now I'm asking, is it a gender thing? Western culture tend to expect from men to be secretive about their feelings and to avoid presenting weaknesses, I could understand that possibility, playing your character could betray you in some way and show some kind of weakness in your "though guy" armor.
There is also some sort of stigmatization of "roleplayers" in mmorpgs who are seen by a good part of the playing community as "D&D nerds" and other fancy names. This could explain why some peoples actively refuse any personal implications in a game and are fine with being permanently Out of character, because, for them, their character essentially does not exist beyond it's ability to kill monsters and other players.
So tell me what you think? is it possible to create a multiplayer/massively multiplayer game that would literally encourage the players to immerse themselves into the game universe? And if yes, what should be done better/differently?
About the author
3D artist, programmer, game designer, jack of all trades, master of none.
#2
Now, this is less true for some games than others. I imagine the way you'd play a Rainbow Six game online would be similar to the way you play it offline, simply because the way to win in both modes is to use cover and be cautious. This is less true in arcade-style action games or shooters, and far less so in roleplaying-focused games (where mechanics may be abstracted to a level where real-life behaviour doesn't come into it: my main problem with MMORPGs).
04/28/2010 (8:47 pm)
I'd say this isn't much of a problem for singleplayer - multiplayer is where immersion is broken most. The reason is simple, IMO: competition. You are driven to be competitive, so you discard anything that doesn't contribute to winning, which in this case means personality.Now, this is less true for some games than others. I imagine the way you'd play a Rainbow Six game online would be similar to the way you play it offline, simply because the way to win in both modes is to use cover and be cautious. This is less true in arcade-style action games or shooters, and far less so in roleplaying-focused games (where mechanics may be abstracted to a level where real-life behaviour doesn't come into it: my main problem with MMORPGs).
#3
04/29/2010 (1:46 pm)
That's an interesting point of view, can you devellop what you believe is this "problem" with mmorpgs? 
#4
1)With no reward for role-playing, people don't see a reason to even read the lore in a game outside of quest requirements.
2)If you reward an action in game, the player will work for the reward rather than for the fun of the action.
With #1, We ought to give players an in-game incentive for role-playing and immersion. In point #2, we know that this sort of interaction will only be surface level and probably won't leave any lasting impression. That is, once the player achieves the awards they want, they'll stop role-playing.
For example, in WoW various kill quests ask you to kill a special monster. Sometimes you have to wait for the monster to spawn, which breaks immersion.
Sometimes there are groups of people waiting in line to kill it. It's like a buffet and everyone wants the meatloaf.
The "Roleplaying" element is that someone in the village wants to be rid of this scourge once and for all! Bring them the severed head and collect a reward. Problem is, the scourge keeps re-spawning and there is no immersion.
By level 40, you're skipping elite kill quests during peak hours because you don't want to stand in line. What was once a role playing ideal has now become a carrot - the carrot lost its appeal, so the horse won't walk.
04/29/2010 (3:46 pm)
There are a few things to consider -1)With no reward for role-playing, people don't see a reason to even read the lore in a game outside of quest requirements.
2)If you reward an action in game, the player will work for the reward rather than for the fun of the action.
With #1, We ought to give players an in-game incentive for role-playing and immersion. In point #2, we know that this sort of interaction will only be surface level and probably won't leave any lasting impression. That is, once the player achieves the awards they want, they'll stop role-playing.
For example, in WoW various kill quests ask you to kill a special monster. Sometimes you have to wait for the monster to spawn, which breaks immersion.
Sometimes there are groups of people waiting in line to kill it. It's like a buffet and everyone wants the meatloaf.
The "Roleplaying" element is that someone in the village wants to be rid of this scourge once and for all! Bring them the severed head and collect a reward. Problem is, the scourge keeps re-spawning and there is no immersion.
By level 40, you're skipping elite kill quests during peak hours because you don't want to stand in line. What was once a role playing ideal has now become a carrot - the carrot lost its appeal, so the horse won't walk.
#5
But the long and short of it is: everything. :P Daniel outlined a few things in his post: grindiness, lack of immersion, lack of change in the world.
[I nearly got sucked in there... close.]
04/29/2010 (5:07 pm)
Quote:can you devellop what you believe is this "problem" with mmorpgs?Believe me, I don't want to get sucked into discussing MMOs... it's pretty off-topic :P. I might start a thread for it later this arvo if I get some time to collect my thoughts in a non-ranty way ;P.
But the long and short of it is: everything. :P Daniel outlined a few things in his post: grindiness, lack of immersion, lack of change in the world.
[I nearly got sucked in there... close.]
Quote:2)If you reward an action in game, the player will work for the reward rather than for the fun of the action.Here's a fun little tangent - what about punishment for not roleplaying? So, quest-givers won't understand you if you use leetspeak. Or something.
#6
on ultima online you had to make a sentence with "vendor buy" in it to initiate the dialog with shopkeepers, in the end peoples simply had a text macro that said:
"vendor buy vendor sell bank guard hail hello"
or things like this.
It's jsut that peoples expect to be able to manipulate the game system to maximise their own benefits so maybe immersion would come up naturally if you give them nothing that they can exploit.
My idea is that maybe we can create a more immersive world by making the players be the actors and basically encourage player factions "frictions"
you can't exploit another player the way you exploit an npc or a quest script.
04/29/2010 (5:16 pm)
well the problem i saw is that everything that run through game mechanics tend to get exploited to maximise output by users.on ultima online you had to make a sentence with "vendor buy" in it to initiate the dialog with shopkeepers, in the end peoples simply had a text macro that said:
"vendor buy vendor sell bank guard hail hello"
or things like this.
It's jsut that peoples expect to be able to manipulate the game system to maximise their own benefits so maybe immersion would come up naturally if you give them nothing that they can exploit.
My idea is that maybe we can create a more immersive world by making the players be the actors and basically encourage player factions "frictions"
you can't exploit another player the way you exploit an npc or a quest script.
#7
I think that exploitation is a constant in a multiplayer environment - it just comes down to the game design whether it can be exploited. The less you can exploit, it seems, the closer you are to building a simulation :P. At least in my view.
04/29/2010 (7:32 pm)
Quote:It's jsut that peoples expect to be able to manipulate the game system to maximise their own benefits so maybe immersion would come up naturally if you give them nothing that they can exploit.What I was getting at above is that sometimes, the system works in a way that encourages similar behaviour to real-life, immersive behaviour. Like a tactical shooter - you play it similarly to how you would act in real life. (It's interesting to note this is enforced through penalty rather than reward - you don't get points for taking cover, you get killed for not taking cover.) If NPCs in Ultima Online were programmed to understand natural language, if you said "vendor buy vendor sell bank guard hail hello" to them their response would be confusion... as would yours or mine.
I think that exploitation is a constant in a multiplayer environment - it just comes down to the game design whether it can be exploited. The less you can exploit, it seems, the closer you are to building a simulation :P. At least in my view.
Quote:idea is that maybe we can create a more immersive world by making the players be the actors and basically encourage player factions "frictions"That sounds like what EVE does (having never played it - just having heard the amazing stories that come out of it :P). I don't think it can be a bad thing to encourage player-on-player interaction more than exploiting NPCs and doing standard quests - it might still not help with the moment-to-moment gameplay (people will still stare at their minimaps), but in terms of the metagame, I can imagine being far more involved in a struggle against real people than against the unchanging environment.
#8
As for MMOs, they these days purposely seem to be designed just to get as many players into the game as possible, which is why i list things like WoW as one of the single worst games ever produced in living memory. But all modern MMOs are trying to be WoW just for the sake of cash. But what really ruins the Immersion in MMOs for me is
1) the behavious of players, in almost every MMO ive played theres 'noob ganking' theres no reason for it other than depraved human nature, i'm sure if there were factions and yoiu were killed by a rival faction member that would make sense, but then theres be allies trying to stop them and youd be 'involved' straight away, even if it was a little early.
2) chat, if you can 'hear' any character thats more than 20 feet away from you, immersion is dead, chat bubbles are evil but the greatest evil of all is the notion of global chat channels and even area based chat channels, the problem is as the average player you cant really turn them off in many MMOs as they provide the only real interaction with other players.
The only real way to solve these issues is segregation, real segregation not the joke attempts that WoW use, LOTRO for example has rigidly enforced RP servers, and they have general servers, if you want immersion then you play the rp where you meet up at the prancing pony or whatever and ask about hunting a rogue wolf rather than screaming L4G ROGUE WOLF in whatever global channels you have available.
In conclusion i think its almost impossible to create an immersive MMO because the depravity of human society wont let you :)
05/03/2010 (8:07 am)
In Single player games the immersion is 100% the designers responsibility, and in some ways makers like bioware have set the bar, and then moved aside to make it rediculous, mass effect suffers the similar problems that Alexander pointed out as far as codex entries are concerned, in both games i ignore them pretty much, mass effect handles the first person aspects better than dragonage unless i'm missing something, the whole bleary eyed dulled sound when youve been to close to the grenade going off for instance.As for MMOs, they these days purposely seem to be designed just to get as many players into the game as possible, which is why i list things like WoW as one of the single worst games ever produced in living memory. But all modern MMOs are trying to be WoW just for the sake of cash. But what really ruins the Immersion in MMOs for me is
1) the behavious of players, in almost every MMO ive played theres 'noob ganking' theres no reason for it other than depraved human nature, i'm sure if there were factions and yoiu were killed by a rival faction member that would make sense, but then theres be allies trying to stop them and youd be 'involved' straight away, even if it was a little early.
2) chat, if you can 'hear' any character thats more than 20 feet away from you, immersion is dead, chat bubbles are evil but the greatest evil of all is the notion of global chat channels and even area based chat channels, the problem is as the average player you cant really turn them off in many MMOs as they provide the only real interaction with other players.
The only real way to solve these issues is segregation, real segregation not the joke attempts that WoW use, LOTRO for example has rigidly enforced RP servers, and they have general servers, if you want immersion then you play the rp where you meet up at the prancing pony or whatever and ask about hunting a rogue wolf rather than screaming L4G ROGUE WOLF in whatever global channels you have available.
In conclusion i think its almost impossible to create an immersive MMO because the depravity of human society wont let you :)
#9
Now even deviating from the concept of a wow clone is difficult because the peoples who hold the purse strings aren't going to let you risk their investments.
05/03/2010 (12:17 pm)
Well that's also because game companies keep releasing wow clones, the early mmorpgs where more like simulated universes, because back then there wasn't any successful recipes to get inspiration from beside the offline rpg games.Now even deviating from the concept of a wow clone is difficult because the peoples who hold the purse strings aren't going to let you risk their investments.
#10
Personally, when I'm in an online game, Evony for example, I stay in character, and I get recognized for it by other players, and they in turn, stay in character when dealing with me.
How do I do this? When I send a mail to someone I address it Most Glorious Lord Abattoir, and I stay in character throughout the letter.
Well met and glad tidings, my friend,
My spies have returned from the cities of the fiend Lord Atreides. They report that an attack is imminent within the fortnight. I readily seek your council. My men-at-arms hunger for combat, and troops will be dispatched at your command.
With Respect, M'Lord.
Brother Smith
Sure some people reply out of character, but most will pick up on my cues and return a message also in character.
You just have to show people what you expect from them. If you create a game, and you run the server, you can warn/kick/ban people who don't stay in character, and I for one, would applaud you for it.
Re-reading this post, it sounds like I'm ranting, but I'm not. I'm just babbling stream-of-conciousness style, I guess.
05/03/2010 (2:00 pm)
If you want to truely immerse yourself in a game, and get others to follow your example, you need to pick specific people, i.e. friends, to play with. I really hate it when I'm playing a Medieval fantasy, and someone posts, 'Sup Dawg!Personally, when I'm in an online game, Evony for example, I stay in character, and I get recognized for it by other players, and they in turn, stay in character when dealing with me.
How do I do this? When I send a mail to someone I address it Most Glorious Lord Abattoir, and I stay in character throughout the letter.
Well met and glad tidings, my friend,
My spies have returned from the cities of the fiend Lord Atreides. They report that an attack is imminent within the fortnight. I readily seek your council. My men-at-arms hunger for combat, and troops will be dispatched at your command.
With Respect, M'Lord.
Brother Smith
Sure some people reply out of character, but most will pick up on my cues and return a message also in character.
You just have to show people what you expect from them. If you create a game, and you run the server, you can warn/kick/ban people who don't stay in character, and I for one, would applaud you for it.
Re-reading this post, it sounds like I'm ranting, but I'm not. I'm just babbling stream-of-conciousness style, I guess.
#11
05/03/2010 (2:44 pm)
True Infinitum3D, my brother used to parttake in a NeverWinter Nights server that was all about roleplay but then you will usually cater to the hardcore roleplayers without much hope of expanding your user base.
#12
LotrO offers player houses and such that is great to get more involved into the game, but if we look back at the sandbox MMORPG's like Ultima Online than today's MMORPG's don't offer much for RPers. Ultima Online didn't take your hand, you crafted your own adventure, crafted you own class, things like that.
But you can't only blame a game. The fact that we RPers are still called nerds and what so ever doesn't help either. While most RPers are normal people who do not believe they are their character when the quit the game. But that people still call RPers nerd scares of potentionale new players. Some of my friends call RPers nerd with no life at all, while they don't know iam one. I RP in World of Warcraft, and i say i got more of a life than most raiders in that game. A friend of mine is a raider, he doesn't give a damn about the lore what so ever, calls rpers nerds but at the end of the day he is the whole going totally insane about some digitale sword that dropped....now tell me honestly? Who is the crazy one than? Someone who enjoys the world game designers created, the story and the interaction with mind liked people playing out their own story within the given world...or someone who sacrifices sleeping hours for a digitale sword that is only good for a few months till there comes out better?
And like Infi3d said, it all depends on the people you play with. Luckely WoW, AoC and LotrO have RP servers so its easyer to find likewise people (not garanteed though, Warhammer online had a rp server too and there was no RP to be found in public places on the european servers..but this could also be because you had absolutely nothing for rpers, couldn't even sit or walk normal). But also in games like Allods (free to play MMORPG) you can have a great RP experience if you go to such games with friends who also RP.
NWN is a great example of a huge RP community. But like you said, there are allot of hardcore rpers that its not easy to get in if you are a beginner. What i can sugest is World of Warcraft and join the Argent Dawn server if you are playing european server. You got all kind of different RPers. Hardcore but also light rpers.
05/06/2010 (4:45 am)
Problem with today MMORGP's is the fact that they don't support the role playing community. They only serve the PvE and PvP players. It makes it harder to imerse yourself with a game if you can't sit down on a chair or sheat your weapons (warhammer online in the first few months). Sure there is stuff for RPers like in WoW there are bars and you can do allot for RP, and Lord of the rings europe has a rp server aswell and supports making you own music (all LotrO servers provide that). But the biggest problem is that you as player have no influence what so ever on the world around you.LotrO offers player houses and such that is great to get more involved into the game, but if we look back at the sandbox MMORPG's like Ultima Online than today's MMORPG's don't offer much for RPers. Ultima Online didn't take your hand, you crafted your own adventure, crafted you own class, things like that.
But you can't only blame a game. The fact that we RPers are still called nerds and what so ever doesn't help either. While most RPers are normal people who do not believe they are their character when the quit the game. But that people still call RPers nerd scares of potentionale new players. Some of my friends call RPers nerd with no life at all, while they don't know iam one. I RP in World of Warcraft, and i say i got more of a life than most raiders in that game. A friend of mine is a raider, he doesn't give a damn about the lore what so ever, calls rpers nerds but at the end of the day he is the whole going totally insane about some digitale sword that dropped....now tell me honestly? Who is the crazy one than? Someone who enjoys the world game designers created, the story and the interaction with mind liked people playing out their own story within the given world...or someone who sacrifices sleeping hours for a digitale sword that is only good for a few months till there comes out better?
And like Infi3d said, it all depends on the people you play with. Luckely WoW, AoC and LotrO have RP servers so its easyer to find likewise people (not garanteed though, Warhammer online had a rp server too and there was no RP to be found in public places on the european servers..but this could also be because you had absolutely nothing for rpers, couldn't even sit or walk normal). But also in games like Allods (free to play MMORPG) you can have a great RP experience if you go to such games with friends who also RP.
NWN is a great example of a huge RP community. But like you said, there are allot of hardcore rpers that its not easy to get in if you are a beginner. What i can sugest is World of Warcraft and join the Argent Dawn server if you are playing european server. You got all kind of different RPers. Hardcore but also light rpers.
Alexander Sarton
For one player it helps alot when a game has a good and convincing story line (players like me for example) But on the other side games can also go to far in that. For example the current game that I am playing is Dragon Age Origins. The story is very broad and besides the story and all the different ways of interacting with NPC's and choosing what path you will take by selecting your own answers and questions, you can also find numerous of books troughout the game which explain the whole story better. Also you can create your own character which alows you to make any character you want and this helps great to immerse urself into the game. If then the player doesn't immerse himself into the game I think it's the player who doesn't like this sort of games or that he/she just skips all the text and voices and giving a random answer and not reading any of the books.
It can also be the game's fault though. Let me still stuck on Dragon Age cause it's doing some things wrong which doens't help me feel immersed as much as it could do. The books you find are ALOT... When you find like 1 book every couple of minutes, sometimes even 3 at a time, you can count how much books you get when you play for 70 hours. (I might exaggerate the amount of books a little bit :P but its coming close) To goto the main menu and read all those books everytime containing almost the same story's, story's which nobody understand and story's which can be told in 3 sentences where you have 40 off them, can be very annoying over time when you get too much books/notes to read. Also the menu where u can read the books doesnt allow you to scroll down without selecting the next book everytime, so when the books fall out off the GUI box and u scroll down by selecting the next book you cannot see anymore which books are read and which not cause as soon as you select a book it is marked as read, and no way you can see if this was the book you just found. (Probably this is a console matter cause I think in the PC you are allowed to scroll down by hand.) The too much books imo and a menu where you, after a while, cannot see anymore which books are read or not doesn't help me getting more involved in the story. I now just click the button "mark all as read" and i don't read anything although before when I just started the game I tryed to read everything just to get more immersed.
This is a small example off what a game can do wrong, though still the main story is still strong so this doesn't make it a bad game. But I just wanna show what a game can do wrong or what the player can do wrong and not only with books but with everything. Too much from something or a bad design of the interface, game or problems with bugs in the game can make the player feel less immersed. Also the player should want to be immersed too and when he wants do some effort for it.
For me also it always helps, when ur not allowed to create your own character but also when you are allowed, to use a First Person camera view. Although Third Person can be very good indeed and for some games it is better to use Third, First Person always helps me alot too feel more immersed, cause you are not looking at someone walking around in heavy armor, you got the feeling it is you who is walking there. Especially good audio effects of your own footsteps, and movement of your gear help alot to immerse you into the game with first person. Although in MMO's they always choose for Third Person and I think the reason is because in Third Person you can see the armor you are wearing. And that's where your saving all your silver and gold for with doing all those quests... To get a better armor and level up. Even though I would like to see an MMO with First Person one day, and then maybe another way of rewarding the player with doing his quests. (Like Oblivion (not MMO but RPG) also had a nice First Person view. You were not able to see the armor very good without going in third person (which was possible but looked very strange when you started moving) or looking in the inventory, it surely was a very good game and alot off people enjoyed it.
Hope I answered your question correctly and didn't make a too long story from it, but here you go!