T3D documentation holes?
by Trevor · in Torque 3D Beginner · 12/17/2009 (1:07 pm) · 15 replies
Hi all,
I recently started playing around with the T3D demo. My experience has been mostly positive, but I keep getting held up by supposedly simple problems that the available documentation mysteriously fails to address. Perhaps my net navigation skills are waning as I shuffle through my third decade of life, but I can't seem to find a single, complete document that addresses the ins and outs of the T3D editing suite. The "T3D Official Documentation" is great for understanding what each button is supposed to do, but it lacks a comprehensive set of tutorials to back it up. Am I missing something?
Alternatively, can anybody point me to information covering the following topics? I've trawled the forums and can't find complete answers there, either.
1) Say I design a material for a mesh in Maya: Two UV maps, one for diffuse, the other for a lightmap baked in Maya; a couple of sub-object textures; normal and specular maps. I export this via Collada, import into T3D. Sometimes textures are carried over properly, usually not. I can sometimes re-connect things satisfactorily using the Materials editor, but what if I want to swap the UV maps, so the one being used for the diffuse/spec/nm is instead used for the lightmap? Or what if I want to add a new sub-object material? I tried adding lines to the materials.cs file, but I don't see any new materials in the drop-down list. Is there a connection editor that facilitates rewiring imported materials? I feel like I'm working blind, totally dependent on the Maya Collada exporter to magically translate everything correctly (which it hasn't done yet).
2) Lighting: I assume one needs the fancy lighting modules (Purelight, etc.) to bake lights within T3D. I also assume that the full version of T3D is required to enable Advanced Lighting, whatever that entails. So I bake my lightmaps in Maya, import them into T3D. The problem is, loading this grayscale PNG into the "Lightmap" slot doesn't work. I can put it into the "Tone map" slot and it shows up, but with unwanted HDR stuff going on (any [RGB255,255,255] pixels produce a light bloom effect).
3) Alpha: I finally got Photoshop CS4 to export PNGs with a proper alpha channel attached (NOT premultiplied), and I have an object with a transparent decal showing up properly in T3D. But when I try to put the same decal into the "Overlay" slot--say I want to feature a blood smear on my concrete wall--nothing happens. I try putting it into the "Detail" slot, and the alpha doesn't work. What am I missing?
Sorry for the long post, I guess I've been building up steam over the past couple of week! Thanks in advance for any help.
Trevor
I recently started playing around with the T3D demo. My experience has been mostly positive, but I keep getting held up by supposedly simple problems that the available documentation mysteriously fails to address. Perhaps my net navigation skills are waning as I shuffle through my third decade of life, but I can't seem to find a single, complete document that addresses the ins and outs of the T3D editing suite. The "T3D Official Documentation" is great for understanding what each button is supposed to do, but it lacks a comprehensive set of tutorials to back it up. Am I missing something?
Alternatively, can anybody point me to information covering the following topics? I've trawled the forums and can't find complete answers there, either.
1) Say I design a material for a mesh in Maya: Two UV maps, one for diffuse, the other for a lightmap baked in Maya; a couple of sub-object textures; normal and specular maps. I export this via Collada, import into T3D. Sometimes textures are carried over properly, usually not. I can sometimes re-connect things satisfactorily using the Materials editor, but what if I want to swap the UV maps, so the one being used for the diffuse/spec/nm is instead used for the lightmap? Or what if I want to add a new sub-object material? I tried adding lines to the materials.cs file, but I don't see any new materials in the drop-down list. Is there a connection editor that facilitates rewiring imported materials? I feel like I'm working blind, totally dependent on the Maya Collada exporter to magically translate everything correctly (which it hasn't done yet).
2) Lighting: I assume one needs the fancy lighting modules (Purelight, etc.) to bake lights within T3D. I also assume that the full version of T3D is required to enable Advanced Lighting, whatever that entails. So I bake my lightmaps in Maya, import them into T3D. The problem is, loading this grayscale PNG into the "Lightmap" slot doesn't work. I can put it into the "Tone map" slot and it shows up, but with unwanted HDR stuff going on (any [RGB255,255,255] pixels produce a light bloom effect).
3) Alpha: I finally got Photoshop CS4 to export PNGs with a proper alpha channel attached (NOT premultiplied), and I have an object with a transparent decal showing up properly in T3D. But when I try to put the same decal into the "Overlay" slot--say I want to feature a blood smear on my concrete wall--nothing happens. I try putting it into the "Detail" slot, and the alpha doesn't work. What am I missing?
Sorry for the long post, I guess I've been building up steam over the past couple of week! Thanks in advance for any help.
Trevor
#2
Advanced lighting is available in T3D Binary (non professional). And it does a sort of baking. From what I hear, you need to put the lightmap into "Overlay" slot, not "Tone Map"
12/17/2009 (8:16 pm)
Well, I can't answer your questions specifically, but I think I can provide insight on your first problem. Specular and Normal maps should be tied to your diffuse map, and I think it's hard coded to use the same UV channels. I can't think of a situation in which the diffuse data was not the same point of reference (light wise) as the specular and normal maps.Advanced lighting is available in T3D Binary (non professional). And it does a sort of baking. From what I hear, you need to put the lightmap into "Overlay" slot, not "Tone Map"
#3
Re: uv maps, I guess I'm just looking information about how to add new multi/sub-object materials or make changes to materials or uv maps without having to export a revised collada asset from Maya.
Jason, glad to hear more/additional documentation is on the horizon. I totally understand that it's tough to document features that are constantly being upgraded and improved, it's just that it makes everything that much more bewildering to Torque n00bs like me!
12/17/2009 (10:17 pm)
Daniel, the problem I'm having is that my grayscale lightmap doesn't do anything when I put it into "Overlay", but it does work (sort of) in "Tone Map." I'm just curious if the map needs to be structured differently or something in order to show up in "Overlay".Re: uv maps, I guess I'm just looking information about how to add new multi/sub-object materials or make changes to materials or uv maps without having to export a revised collada asset from Maya.
Jason, glad to hear more/additional documentation is on the horizon. I totally understand that it's tough to document features that are constantly being upgraded and improved, it's just that it makes everything that much more bewildering to Torque n00bs like me!
#4
01/04/2010 (2:46 pm)
Tone Map is actually the slot for a pureLIGHT lightmap. You can put your own lightmaps in there, but the algorithm used to blend the diffuse and lightmap is made specifically for pureLIGHT content. 
#5
I was just looking into changing up on the whole material system, and had no idea what "Tone Map" was. No mention of it in the documentation didn't help either.
So, if it's specifically for pureLight, can we at least get it out of the material editor and all that unless you actually have the pureLight pack?
06/25/2010 (5:02 am)
Really? So there's a part of the engine made specifically for an expansion pack (or what you call it)? Why on earth isn't that all in the pureLight package?I was just looking into changing up on the whole material system, and had no idea what "Tone Map" was. No mention of it in the documentation didn't help either.
So, if it's specifically for pureLight, can we at least get it out of the material editor and all that unless you actually have the pureLight pack?
#7
06/26/2010 (4:38 am)
Thanks for that, Pat. Hadn't thought about it. Could you try and google tone mapping in Torque for me? It's how I ended up in this thread...
#8
06/27/2010 (7:02 am)
If you had Googled "tone map" you would have seen it's not pure-light specific. If you were interested in the blend-function used, you would have searched the codebase. Instead you resurrected a 6 month old, marginally-topical thread and then complained about how a feature you didn't understand should be removed. 
#9
Sometimes the verbiage is redefined on a per function basis, so only the real cleaver code monkeys truly know whats going on. I thought it was some type of silly inside joke, but i see now it is to feed the confusion and allow for slightly mean forum conduct aimed to the suffering confused.
Save the sarcasm for the truly inane; that is when it is most funny...
(Oh and without some simple docs here; i dont think T3D 'Tone Map' is working correctly, i cant get it to do what the rest of the industry say it do. But all i can do is toss images at it and record the outcome as an attempt to disassemble the functionality...)
06/27/2010 (12:27 pm)
It is never easy to tell when Torque is NOT using the standard industrial definition for something, and I have grown to expect Torques use of verbiage and wording is specific to Torques own little world where everything works slightly different then the rest of the industry. Sometimes the verbiage is redefined on a per function basis, so only the real cleaver code monkeys truly know whats going on. I thought it was some type of silly inside joke, but i see now it is to feed the confusion and allow for slightly mean forum conduct aimed to the suffering confused.
Save the sarcasm for the truly inane; that is when it is most funny...
(Oh and without some simple docs here; i dont think T3D 'Tone Map' is working correctly, i cant get it to do what the rest of the industry say it do. But all i can do is toss images at it and record the outcome as an attempt to disassemble the functionality...)
#10
@Caylo: ToneMap works like a charm. It uses the second UV map that pureLight exports.
Also, there's no sarcasm in Pat's post. It's just how it is. Search before you ask, and search even more before you share your ideas on something.
I realize that this is not the first post from you that's very bitter-sounding. Wanna talk about it?
@Andreas: If you do not understand something about the engine, there are people here to help with that. Just don't be an ass in return.
06/27/2010 (2:04 pm)
When pureLight added support for Torque 3D, the Tone Map feature was added to the engine to be able to handle pureLight light maps. You can use any light map you wish of course. But without a modeling app, the only 3rd party app that supports this feature is pureLight. It is a feature that was developed with pureLight but definitely not for only pureLight generated content. Why would you want to remove a feature that would let you make better, faster and more appealing games from a game engine?@Caylo: ToneMap works like a charm. It uses the second UV map that pureLight exports.
Also, there's no sarcasm in Pat's post. It's just how it is. Search before you ask, and search even more before you share your ideas on something.
I realize that this is not the first post from you that's very bitter-sounding. Wanna talk about it?
@Andreas: If you do not understand something about the engine, there are people here to help with that. Just don't be an ass in return.
#11
If ToneMap is working like a charm, how am i expected to use it? I have done my best to research it, and can not figure out what ToneMap wants from me before it will function. (The word ToneMap could be replaced with any number of other words T3D have in its vocabulary, and this same conversation would still be about the same thing, features that users do not know how to use and have very little clue to figuring out.)
I also can not get Overlay or LightMap to do what i expect (expectations from what the terms mean in the NON Torque world). Perhaps a simple example .DAE showing how Torque expects the material to be configured?
T3D have many feature that should let you make better, faster and more appealing games, but are useless to most everyone who is NOT a programmer or the individual that do NOT expect weeks of research and 'dicking' to get them working.
06/27/2010 (2:44 pm)
I sound bitter? Quite a few people seem bitter about there T3D experiences. Perhaps more attention spent on the content of a post and not the perceived 'tone' from the way things are worded would be the better object for a helpful solution. If ToneMap is working like a charm, how am i expected to use it? I have done my best to research it, and can not figure out what ToneMap wants from me before it will function. (The word ToneMap could be replaced with any number of other words T3D have in its vocabulary, and this same conversation would still be about the same thing, features that users do not know how to use and have very little clue to figuring out.)
I also can not get Overlay or LightMap to do what i expect (expectations from what the terms mean in the NON Torque world). Perhaps a simple example .DAE showing how Torque expects the material to be configured?
T3D have many feature that should let you make better, faster and more appealing games, but are useless to most everyone who is NOT a programmer or the individual that do NOT expect weeks of research and 'dicking' to get them working.
#12
This is not how people should be communicating with each other. I can't be convinced that it should just be ignored - unless it would power a flame. There are a thousand ways to conduct anger, frustration and the like - in a polite manner.
To use lightmaps via Tone Map, you'll need a Collada file (DTS exporters do not support storing a second UV set - the format itself would allow though). In that collada file, TEXCOORD-0 is your diffuse map, and TEXCOORD-1 is your lightmap - this tone map. Examples are available in the prelit demo missions - the room and the steampunk station (sorry, can't recall the titles).
As for Overlay and LightMap - I've never used them, can't help there. I understand your concerns about the docs - everyone knows about the problem. The new docs will probably make you more content about the engine, hopefully.
06/27/2010 (3:06 pm)
Quote:Save the sarcasm for the truly inane; that is when it is most funny...
Quote:...expectations from what the terms mean in the NON Torque world...
Quote:Perhaps more attention spent on the content of a post and not the perceived 'tone' from the way things are worded would be the better object for a helpful solution.
This is not how people should be communicating with each other. I can't be convinced that it should just be ignored - unless it would power a flame. There are a thousand ways to conduct anger, frustration and the like - in a polite manner.
To use lightmaps via Tone Map, you'll need a Collada file (DTS exporters do not support storing a second UV set - the format itself would allow though). In that collada file, TEXCOORD-0 is your diffuse map, and TEXCOORD-1 is your lightmap - this tone map. Examples are available in the prelit demo missions - the room and the steampunk station (sorry, can't recall the titles).
As for Overlay and LightMap - I've never used them, can't help there. I understand your concerns about the docs - everyone knows about the problem. The new docs will probably make you more content about the engine, hopefully.
#13
But no matter how i read Andreas Johansen previous posts, I do not see how both Konrad and Pat conclude that Andreas is expressing his wish that Tone Map should be removed as a feature.
It is exactly this type of quick to conclusion communication that my above Quotes are detailing.
As you can see the confusion here, if we have a Material Editor entry with label "LightMap" one would expect THAT is where the lightmap should be placed, and by deduction of common logic ToneMap must be anything other then the LightMap!
Now you see why i said; "...expectations from what the terms mean in the NON Torque world..."
Also the fact that I, using my exceptionally common human power of reasoning, would never think to use a pureLIGHT example mesh as example to learn how to use T3D(NON pureLIGHT pertinent) materials.
So i guess the only non-polite subject of my communication could be ignorance about T3D, and expecting 'them who know' to teach and not to be condescending subject shifters (not putting this label on anyone, just illuminating how it sounds).
06/27/2010 (4:02 pm)
I agree, this is not how people should be communication with each other. Communication is consuming what is communicated, comprehending it, and replying that comprehension in a logical meaningful way. Non-polite communication is explicitly aimed to insult or inflame an illogical emotional response. But no matter how i read Andreas Johansen previous posts, I do not see how both Konrad and Pat conclude that Andreas is expressing his wish that Tone Map should be removed as a feature.
It is exactly this type of quick to conclusion communication that my above Quotes are detailing.
As you can see the confusion here, if we have a Material Editor entry with label "LightMap" one would expect THAT is where the lightmap should be placed, and by deduction of common logic ToneMap must be anything other then the LightMap!
Now you see why i said; "...expectations from what the terms mean in the NON Torque world..."
Also the fact that I, using my exceptionally common human power of reasoning, would never think to use a pureLIGHT example mesh as example to learn how to use T3D(NON pureLIGHT pertinent) materials.
So i guess the only non-polite subject of my communication could be ignorance about T3D, and expecting 'them who know' to teach and not to be condescending subject shifters (not putting this label on anyone, just illuminating how it sounds).
#14
The prelit demo missions are part of the example missions that come with the engine. They use lightmaps. Just do a search for ToneMap and see what's going on until things are better explained in the docs.
06/27/2010 (4:15 pm)
Since this is the second lightmap solution that Torque uses for standalone objects, I see why there was a need to name it differently. I assume that LightMap is the legacy solution. I could be wrong though.The prelit demo missions are part of the example missions that come with the engine. They use lightmaps. Just do a search for ToneMap and see what's going on until things are better explained in the docs.
#15
Torque bless my corneal lacerations, and may we all find slumberous peace soon, far away from the disfiguring ugliness that blight my Tone Map...(Also said as; Almighty allow me death before the sight of my hapless toil.)
EDIT: for the vulgarity such a subjugate deserves, and to thank all those who made such a wast of unvaluable time possible, truly a joy i will live to regret with exuberant glee.
06/27/2010 (10:47 pm)
Thanks for your guidance Konrad, I will keep pumping away on T3D and some day soon i hope it just all slip together and works out best. (Or better, allow Torque to ram me up the hindsight of consumer regrets.) Torque bless my corneal lacerations, and may we all find slumberous peace soon, far away from the disfiguring ugliness that blight my Tone Map...(Also said as; Almighty allow me death before the sight of my hapless toil.)
EDIT: for the vulgarity such a subjugate deserves, and to thank all those who made such a wast of unvaluable time possible, truly a joy i will live to regret with exuberant glee.
Torque 3D Owner Jason Parker
That said, I've read that there's a rather large push of new document content coming up.