Thoughts on TGE moving forward...
by Josh Engebretson · in Torque Game Engine · 10/01/2009 (3:07 am) · 30 replies
I completely understand why GarageGames is discontinuing TGE in 30 days... and support the move.
However, I strongly desire to see TGE have a future other than code rot. I have faith in GarageGames not stomping on a legitimate effort to improve TGE, the community, and as a direct result current generation technology. In fact, I hope/believe the vision to help facilitate this exists...
I think there are only a few with the necessary interest/time to kickstart an effort. I live in North Dakota... winter is coming on... the timing is perfect :)
Here's a roadmap for a start:
1) Setup a Subversion/Trac installation to house the work (trivial)
2) Setup CMake for the build system, which is *awesome* and capable of generating Visual Studio solutions, XCode projects, and Linux makefiles (also other IDE workspaces)
3) Replace the Windows/OSX/Linux platform layers with a unified SDL layer removing much code redundancy and platform maintenance. This includes the sound and TTF code as SDL also has support for these.
4) I am *currently* working on C#/Mono support and came to the realization that working with the much smaller TGE codebase and then bringing it over to Torque 3D (as a resource, addon, or in the core engine) would be productive. I've always had an issue with TorqueScript in terms of not being a standard, quirkiness, and its performance, so two birds one stone :)
I also have R&D into patching/streaming and embedded browser/Flash technology... all of which are directly related to my new indie game studio startup... and all of which could easily be moved from TGE -> Torque 3D :)
I am curious if others have specific thoughts on moving TGE forward?
However, I strongly desire to see TGE have a future other than code rot. I have faith in GarageGames not stomping on a legitimate effort to improve TGE, the community, and as a direct result current generation technology. In fact, I hope/believe the vision to help facilitate this exists...
I think there are only a few with the necessary interest/time to kickstart an effort. I live in North Dakota... winter is coming on... the timing is perfect :)
Here's a roadmap for a start:
1) Setup a Subversion/Trac installation to house the work (trivial)
2) Setup CMake for the build system, which is *awesome* and capable of generating Visual Studio solutions, XCode projects, and Linux makefiles (also other IDE workspaces)
3) Replace the Windows/OSX/Linux platform layers with a unified SDL layer removing much code redundancy and platform maintenance. This includes the sound and TTF code as SDL also has support for these.
4) I am *currently* working on C#/Mono support and came to the realization that working with the much smaller TGE codebase and then bringing it over to Torque 3D (as a resource, addon, or in the core engine) would be productive. I've always had an issue with TorqueScript in terms of not being a standard, quirkiness, and its performance, so two birds one stone :)
I also have R&D into patching/streaming and embedded browser/Flash technology... all of which are directly related to my new indie game studio startup... and all of which could easily be moved from TGE -> Torque 3D :)
I am curious if others have specific thoughts on moving TGE forward?
About the author
http://www.TheEngine.Co
#2
There's one word for that: Darwin
;)
10/01/2009 (3:25 am)
Quote:Of course, it might then be difficult to maintain a single 'core' TGE
There's one word for that: Darwin
;)
#3
Because TGE is a fast engine, the high-quality-lightmaps from pureLight would increase the optical aspect of TGE dramatically.
Here is the thread
Maybe a user voting could GG to convince to create a TGE-pureLight-solution.
10/01/2009 (3:53 am)
Yesterday i asked the developers of pureLight if it is possible to implement support of pureLight for TGE. Because TGE is a fast engine, the high-quality-lightmaps from pureLight would increase the optical aspect of TGE dramatically.
Here is the thread
Maybe a user voting could GG to convince to create a TGE-pureLight-solution.
#4
TGE will officially be discontinued in 30 days. I doubt there will be a TGE solution available from either pureLIGHT or GG, which is completely understandable.
10/01/2009 (4:44 am)
You are right about high quality lightmaps.TGE will officially be discontinued in 30 days. I doubt there will be a TGE solution available from either pureLIGHT or GG, which is completely understandable.
#5
If i switch from Advanced Lighting to Basic Lighting in the World Editor, i get good performance. Should i pay 850 USD for T3D Pro + 400 USD for pureLight? Only to get good lightmaps? Sure?
T3D Basic is not a option for me because i need the source code to enhance the engine.
I tried also the editors of the T3D Demo. They are good. But also the new editors dont justify the price of T3D.
10/01/2009 (5:18 am)
But T3D is not the big step i expected. The Advanced Lighting is unusable because the game would be very slow. If i switch from Advanced Lighting to Basic Lighting in the World Editor, i get good performance. Should i pay 850 USD for T3D Pro + 400 USD for pureLight? Only to get good lightmaps? Sure?
T3D Basic is not a option for me because i need the source code to enhance the engine.
I tried also the editors of the T3D Demo. They are good. But also the new editors dont justify the price of T3D.
#6
This thread's purpose is to discuss improving/maintaining TGE and how to avoid it falling into code rot.
10/01/2009 (5:26 am)
Those are questions which only you can answer. My opinion is that Torque 3D + pureLIGHT is well worth the $$$. I think what you see with user's projects and official demos/updates in the coming months will only make that more evident.This thread's purpose is to discuss improving/maintaining TGE and how to avoid it falling into code rot.
#7
Regarding Purelight + TGE. I don't see the point, the amount of time and effort required to implement PureLight into TGE (weeks, months?) when you can just purchase T3D where it will work the first day.
10/01/2009 (8:04 am)
I agree with Josh. My personal opinion is that it would be good to see TGE continued, maybe even as a free engine. It could be used to get hobbysts in the door where they could eventually move up to T3D.Regarding Purelight + TGE. I don't see the point, the amount of time and effort required to implement PureLight into TGE (weeks, months?) when you can just purchase T3D where it will work the first day.
#8
www.darkware.de/badShadows.wmv
Yes, i see. It works the first day.
10/01/2009 (8:09 am)
Quote:...when you can just purchase T3D where it will work the first day
www.darkware.de/badShadows.wmv
Yes, i see. It works the first day.
#9
I've branched the TGE 1.5.2 code and setup a development portal to blog about progress and help refine ideas:
http://karma.mythoslabs.com
Right now, just getting things setup and the codebase configured with a new build system. Once it makes sense, it shouldn't be a problem to grant access to anyone (including voyeurs) with a valid TGE license. This shouldn't be *terribly* long... as with anything, factors are involved.
Feel free to stop by, kick a tire, and let me know if something is obviously broken on the site :)
- Josh Engebretson
Idiot Savant
10/03/2009 (2:43 am)
Well, it certainly didn't take me long to descend back into indie madness.I've branched the TGE 1.5.2 code and setup a development portal to blog about progress and help refine ideas:
http://karma.mythoslabs.com
Right now, just getting things setup and the codebase configured with a new build system. Once it makes sense, it shouldn't be a problem to grant access to anyone (including voyeurs) with a valid TGE license. This shouldn't be *terribly* long... as with anything, factors are involved.
Feel free to stop by, kick a tire, and let me know if something is obviously broken on the site :)
- Josh Engebretson
Idiot Savant
#10
So i did a scene for a week, Purelight did the same for 10 minutes.
There is a difference in the quality of course,since Purelight is using some filters and radiocity.
So the answer is: it is possible,but also very unhandy without a tool.
Purelight is still $350,get it!
10/03/2009 (4:38 am)
I've done lightmapping with a secondary UV channel on TGEA (Adrian's ats format) with render to texture,but it's a hell work.So i did a scene for a week, Purelight did the same for 10 minutes.
There is a difference in the quality of course,since Purelight is using some filters and radiocity.
So the answer is: it is possible,but also very unhandy without a tool.
Purelight is still $350,get it!
#11
EDIT: Can't seem to access the dashboard - I assume that's where I'd go to change my password to something useful?
10/04/2009 (1:12 am)
Josh - consider a tire officially kicked. I like the site, and I like even more the feature targets you've set ;). Just got to know - can Trac interface with TSVN? I'm currently using SVN repositories through TSVN and am comfortable with them, so I don't want to have to learn a new system ;P.EDIT: Can't seem to access the dashboard - I assume that's where I'd go to change my password to something useful?
#12
10/04/2009 (5:19 am)
Hey Daniel, Trac is closely integrated with standard SVN. So, yes... TortoiseSVN is just fine. I need to remove the Dashboard link, thanks for reminding me. You change your password from Profile (upper right) and then under Management (on the right sidebar) choose Edit.
#13
10/04/2009 (5:45 am)
Huh... I totally didn't see that link ;P. Thanks. 
#14
Although for a Python Guru like yourself it's probably all simple stuff
10/04/2009 (7:33 am)
Great work Josh - superb to see TGE getting some loving. Let us know if you need any support, I've done a load of work with TRAC and integrating it with Torque right from synching user accounts in-game with TRACs details, different levels of permissions (devs, testers, public, etc) that have access to all sorts and even creating TRAC tickets from within Torque itself. Although for a Python Guru like yourself it's probably all simple stuff
#15
I may be all out, full on, Torque 3D ahead, but TGE is still an old dear friend that I still visit regularly, so it's great to see that it's still getting attention in such a way. I look forward to seeing just where it lands.
10/04/2009 (11:46 am)
Way to go Josh! Can I get in on that? Most of your listed improvements hold great interest to me.I may be all out, full on, Torque 3D ahead, but TGE is still an old dear friend that I still visit regularly, so it's great to see that it's still getting attention in such a way. I look forward to seeing just where it lands.
#16
@Michael: most of the work will translate to Torque 3D... and, indeed, the plan is that it lands there (where it is useful to the most folks)... either as resources, addons, or possibly in the core engine.
10/04/2009 (12:17 pm)
@Andy: Trac is pretty fun to hack on. Great idea on hooking up the ticketing system directly.. especially good for in game bug reporting :)@Michael: most of the work will translate to Torque 3D... and, indeed, the plan is that it lands there (where it is useful to the most folks)... either as resources, addons, or possibly in the core engine.
#17
What you have planned sounds like it would take tge to the next level in it's field, and yet keep it's cross platform compatability. Kudos to you for that. I registered on your forum/blog.
10/04/2009 (1:04 pm)
I had to go look up what mono was. (surprising how many links there were to a venerial desease) What you have planned sounds like it would take tge to the next level in it's field, and yet keep it's cross platform compatability. Kudos to you for that. I registered on your forum/blog.
#18
10/04/2009 (2:31 pm)
I'm not sure if this is a silly question, but why wouldn't you start with TGEA instead of TGE on all this? 
#19
I just registered on the karma project.
SDL will be a big win - not only because FSAA is easy to implement.
About sound I'am not sure if SDL libs can compare to OpenAL, but I only used sdl-mixer so far. An advantage is the ability to be able to play mod files.
I hope c# integration does not mean torque script will be dropped out, when I started with TGE I also didn't like it so much but meanwhile I think it not so bad ;)
A bugfixing area should be also a part of the project since especially the gui and multilingual/utf8 stuff have some issues.
@steve : because TGE is multiplattform and also runs on older pc's, older macs (and mac mini with intel graphics), linux and also on BSD (only tested FreeBSD) without big modifications. And to run a dedicated server on these OS's.
10/04/2009 (4:52 pm)
Great idea :) I just registered on the karma project.
SDL will be a big win - not only because FSAA is easy to implement.
About sound I'am not sure if SDL libs can compare to OpenAL, but I only used sdl-mixer so far. An advantage is the ability to be able to play mod files.
I hope c# integration does not mean torque script will be dropped out, when I started with TGE I also didn't like it so much but meanwhile I think it not so bad ;)
A bugfixing area should be also a part of the project since especially the gui and multilingual/utf8 stuff have some issues.
@steve : because TGE is multiplattform and also runs on older pc's, older macs (and mac mini with intel graphics), linux and also on BSD (only tested FreeBSD) without big modifications. And to run a dedicated server on these OS's.
#20
Mono/.NET support is *really* important as having standards based, high performance scripting, where its is trivial to use 3rd party code libraries.. without delving into C++... is critical.
Agree regarding bug fixes...
I look to the ioquake3 project for inspiration on what would be "good taste" for the Karma Project. Really focusing on standards and making sure that the multiplatform is solidly covered, without going off on OpenGL rendering tangents. My thinking is that TGE is what it is on the rendering side of things.
10/04/2009 (6:27 pm)
TorqueScript won't be dropped, in fact it will be possible to interact between any .NET language and it. This is important for those who want to use TorqueScript and compatibility with all the resources/addons that require it... and for integrating with current generation tech as there is still a lot of TorqueScript being used.Mono/.NET support is *really* important as having standards based, high performance scripting, where its is trivial to use 3rd party code libraries.. without delving into C++... is critical.
Agree regarding bug fixes...
I look to the ioquake3 project for inspiration on what would be "good taste" for the Karma Project. Really focusing on standards and making sure that the multiplatform is solidly covered, without going off on OpenGL rendering tangents. My thinking is that TGE is what it is on the rendering side of things.
Torque Owner Daniel Buckmaster
T3D Steering Committee
I don't have much to add on the technical side, apart from wondering whether the community for an open TGE would remain here at GG, or if it would be necessary/advantageous to move the community to another site dedicated to TGE.
I think having a central repository could be fun... I always get pangs of wannabe-nostalgia seeing old forum threads about grabbing the HEAD for TGE. This could also facilitate a bunch of different community projects.
Of course, it might then be difficult to maintain a single 'core' TGE, if community projects take it off in wacky directions. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing.