Has garage games abondoned the indie?
by Matt Cuda · in Torque 3D Beginner · 09/02/2009 (9:58 am) · 45 replies
The pricing on Torque 3D is outrageous for an Indie. I am sure the engine is well worth the money but it is sad that Garage Games is abandoning the indie. 1,000 to 3,000 dollars is way out of the means of most of us out there. I have been programming against the 1.5 version of Torque for about a year, but once it can no longer be used, I will probably look elsewhere for an engine. Sad because I really fell in love with Garage Games.
About the author
#2
I am a firm believer in platform programming. In other words, I learn a platform and stick with it. In the real world I am a C# developer and so I stick with C# and the Microsoft .Net platform so I can maximize my experience and write apps faster and better.
I picked TGE and GG as my platform for game dev a year ago, but with the new prices I am seeing here, I am totally rethinking that logic.
09/02/2009 (10:13 am)
Well I don't think that, but the time will come when TGE will no longer be useful. Since I have invested so much time and money into GG, I would look to them for my next upgrade. With these prices, I will have to look elsewhere. I am a firm believer in platform programming. In other words, I learn a platform and stick with it. In the real world I am a C# developer and so I stick with C# and the Microsoft .Net platform so I can maximize my experience and write apps faster and better.
I picked TGE and GG as my platform for game dev a year ago, but with the new prices I am seeing here, I am totally rethinking that logic.
#3
indie means just independant of a publisher or someone else, but it does not mean necessarily one man shows. So I would not argue that GG abandonend indies, I even see it on the contrary now, because now development of T3D advances so much faster, it' no comparison to how it was before.
But initially I was thinking the same like you now and thought that it's way too much to spend. But then again, for other "hobbies" I also spend money, so why not on T3D? And clearly to me it's a hobby even tough I think of myself as an indie, but so far I did not finish a game. Of course i would have loved T3D to be a free or cheap update, but I can understand why GG is doing it like they do. Plus there was a big discount to get it when you joined Beta, and i think there still is some discount.
If you are serious about making a game as a business, then you need to get artists,maybe more programmers, maybe rent rooms and so on and you will see that the price of the engine is the least of your problems. If you are (like me) hoping to get a game going as a one man show, then by all means go for it, but surely this can be done as well with TGE. Or if money really is a concern, why not try the free TorqueX? You as a pro C# dev should get up to speed with this in no time.
All I want to say is simply that I don't think GG abandoned indies, but maybe that the one man bedroom company is not (anymore) the target group fo T3D as a product. It's more small teams that need a powerful, affordable and proven engine.
09/02/2009 (10:53 am)
Hi matt,indie means just independant of a publisher or someone else, but it does not mean necessarily one man shows. So I would not argue that GG abandonend indies, I even see it on the contrary now, because now development of T3D advances so much faster, it' no comparison to how it was before.
But initially I was thinking the same like you now and thought that it's way too much to spend. But then again, for other "hobbies" I also spend money, so why not on T3D? And clearly to me it's a hobby even tough I think of myself as an indie, but so far I did not finish a game. Of course i would have loved T3D to be a free or cheap update, but I can understand why GG is doing it like they do. Plus there was a big discount to get it when you joined Beta, and i think there still is some discount.
If you are serious about making a game as a business, then you need to get artists,maybe more programmers, maybe rent rooms and so on and you will see that the price of the engine is the least of your problems. If you are (like me) hoping to get a game going as a one man show, then by all means go for it, but surely this can be done as well with TGE. Or if money really is a concern, why not try the free TorqueX? You as a pro C# dev should get up to speed with this in no time.
All I want to say is simply that I don't think GG abandoned indies, but maybe that the one man bedroom company is not (anymore) the target group fo T3D as a product. It's more small teams that need a powerful, affordable and proven engine.
#4
Tell me that inflation rose enough to make the engine cost 3,000 dollars. Obviously this is a shift by Garage Games to move to a commerical engine at some point. Perhaps they had to because of loss of revenue and for that I do not blame them but I can still be angry by what a see as a huge problem for your average indie especially in this terrible economy.
As far as Torque X: I spent an entire weekend working with it and it is no where near ready for prime time. No world editor and whatever that thing is they call and editor is almost worthless. I do like that it uses C# but other than that I would rather use TGE and Torque Script.
09/02/2009 (11:01 am)
I would agree and disagree. Most indie operations are small thus the name Garage Games. When I say small I mean one to two guys working out of their house. There is no reason to stick up for an increase in pricing to that degree. I think I paid something like 250.00 for TGE 1.5.2 about two or three years ago.Tell me that inflation rose enough to make the engine cost 3,000 dollars. Obviously this is a shift by Garage Games to move to a commerical engine at some point. Perhaps they had to because of loss of revenue and for that I do not blame them but I can still be angry by what a see as a huge problem for your average indie especially in this terrible economy.
As far as Torque X: I spent an entire weekend working with it and it is no where near ready for prime time. No world editor and whatever that thing is they call and editor is almost worthless. I do like that it uses C# but other than that I would rather use TGE and Torque Script.
#5
09/02/2009 (11:03 am)
PS Have you ever had to convince your wife that spending 3 grand on an engine is worth it : ) 
#6
This topic has been argued to death in our community and abroad. It was argued when we announced an upgrade price for TGE 1.5. $50 was too much for an upgrade (less, if you had already paid for the lighting kit). The C4 community rallied against Eric's upgrade pricing which caused him to relent and continue his "free upgrades for life" policy. I hope it is working out well for him. Even as a one-man shop who publishes articles and books, I'm sure times are tough. They're tough for everyone, especially if you have a team of engineers making a product.
The term "indie" is a loaded slippery slope of a term that has been debated to death in this space (as well as any time someone wins or loses any contest that has "indie" in the title). It can mean "I'm poor and have no money for Unreal and want to sell my work so I'm not just going to mod Unreal" or it can mean "I'm an independently financed developer making the games I want to make". Or it can mean not being backed by a "Major" studio. Or anywhere in-between. It can espouse hobbyists who will pay through the nose for their hobbies out of their own pocket or small studios of AAA vets who pool their resources and work outside of the usual AAA box. Sometimes people consider gametype targets to be "indie". A Starcraft or Diablo clone may not be considered "indie" where a match-3 may be; or a match-3 may be considered "casual" and separate from "indie". I've seen that argument made as well, as if certain types of games do not meet the "indie" criteria but are instead relegated to "hobbyist genres" or clones of "AAA casual portal titles".
And under some definitions, indie does mean cheap or even free. And there are a ton of great free engines out there like Sauerbraten, Irrlicht, id tech 1/2/3, Panda, Delta3D, Nebula Device, etc...for people who have free as part of their equation. I really like the ioQuake3 codebase. It is a massively cleaned-up GPL'd Q3 codebase. Very nice to work with. I'm also a big fan of Sauerbraten and Cube for multiplayer map editing.
For low-cost engines ($1-$500), you're looking at TGE, Torque 3D Basic, Unity Indie, C4, NeoAxis, A7, GameCore, 3D Rad, DX Studio, et al. There are a lot of engines out there, which there were not when Torque was initially released. And they're good engines that require significant engineering upkeep to keep moving forward. GameCore, for example, seems to be floundering hard since the Gekido Group sold or repackaged it from BeyondVirtual into GC. The "indie" marketplace has changed significantly; not that it was a stable market in the first place. The problematic definition of "indie" made the early days easy to cater to a large number of people of all different backgrounds. As the marketplace has segmented and different engine design strategies cater to different types of "indies", the pie has been dished out accordingly.
The pie is as big as ever (if not bigger now that academic institutions that scoffed at a game development course five years ago are jumping on board with minors or an emphasis in game development). But the pieces are being dished out to a lot more very, very good companies with very, very strong products.
We're not leaving "indies" in the cold; we're paying for the development of a very strong piece of engine technology that is priced well below its value.
Are there some people who cannot afford to upgrade? Of course there are. It is sad, but anytime there is a price change, it will happen. There are also people who will not pay more than $100 for their tech and are happily programming games in BlitzMax and DarkBasic or using TGE 1.4.2. Some people made the $150 (or $50 upgrade) plunge for TGE because it fit the model that they could afford.
I can understand being unhappy that you cannot justify the purchase of Torque 3D. There are a lot of things that I would love that I cannot afford, especially when I have to make the argument to my wife as to why I really need it. But saying that we've "abandoned the indie" is not accurate at all; unless the accuracy of your argument of what it takes to be "indie" is sufficiently narrow to never include a company or individual that could afford to license a $1000 engine.
09/02/2009 (12:13 pm)
edit: removed my Scrabble note. :)This topic has been argued to death in our community and abroad. It was argued when we announced an upgrade price for TGE 1.5. $50 was too much for an upgrade (less, if you had already paid for the lighting kit). The C4 community rallied against Eric's upgrade pricing which caused him to relent and continue his "free upgrades for life" policy. I hope it is working out well for him. Even as a one-man shop who publishes articles and books, I'm sure times are tough. They're tough for everyone, especially if you have a team of engineers making a product.
The term "indie" is a loaded slippery slope of a term that has been debated to death in this space (as well as any time someone wins or loses any contest that has "indie" in the title). It can mean "I'm poor and have no money for Unreal and want to sell my work so I'm not just going to mod Unreal" or it can mean "I'm an independently financed developer making the games I want to make". Or it can mean not being backed by a "Major" studio. Or anywhere in-between. It can espouse hobbyists who will pay through the nose for their hobbies out of their own pocket or small studios of AAA vets who pool their resources and work outside of the usual AAA box. Sometimes people consider gametype targets to be "indie". A Starcraft or Diablo clone may not be considered "indie" where a match-3 may be; or a match-3 may be considered "casual" and separate from "indie". I've seen that argument made as well, as if certain types of games do not meet the "indie" criteria but are instead relegated to "hobbyist genres" or clones of "AAA casual portal titles".
And under some definitions, indie does mean cheap or even free. And there are a ton of great free engines out there like Sauerbraten, Irrlicht, id tech 1/2/3, Panda, Delta3D, Nebula Device, etc...for people who have free as part of their equation. I really like the ioQuake3 codebase. It is a massively cleaned-up GPL'd Q3 codebase. Very nice to work with. I'm also a big fan of Sauerbraten and Cube for multiplayer map editing.
For low-cost engines ($1-$500), you're looking at TGE, Torque 3D Basic, Unity Indie, C4, NeoAxis, A7, GameCore, 3D Rad, DX Studio, et al. There are a lot of engines out there, which there were not when Torque was initially released. And they're good engines that require significant engineering upkeep to keep moving forward. GameCore, for example, seems to be floundering hard since the Gekido Group sold or repackaged it from BeyondVirtual into GC. The "indie" marketplace has changed significantly; not that it was a stable market in the first place. The problematic definition of "indie" made the early days easy to cater to a large number of people of all different backgrounds. As the marketplace has segmented and different engine design strategies cater to different types of "indies", the pie has been dished out accordingly.
The pie is as big as ever (if not bigger now that academic institutions that scoffed at a game development course five years ago are jumping on board with minors or an emphasis in game development). But the pieces are being dished out to a lot more very, very good companies with very, very strong products.
We're not leaving "indies" in the cold; we're paying for the development of a very strong piece of engine technology that is priced well below its value.
Are there some people who cannot afford to upgrade? Of course there are. It is sad, but anytime there is a price change, it will happen. There are also people who will not pay more than $100 for their tech and are happily programming games in BlitzMax and DarkBasic or using TGE 1.4.2. Some people made the $150 (or $50 upgrade) plunge for TGE because it fit the model that they could afford.
I can understand being unhappy that you cannot justify the purchase of Torque 3D. There are a lot of things that I would love that I cannot afford, especially when I have to make the argument to my wife as to why I really need it. But saying that we've "abandoned the indie" is not accurate at all; unless the accuracy of your argument of what it takes to be "indie" is sufficiently narrow to never include a company or individual that could afford to license a $1000 engine.
#7
09/02/2009 (12:57 pm)
Torque 3d is reasonably priced. Look at engines like Gamebyro, Unreal, CryEngine, T3D is not pricey for what it has to offer. Sure there are alot of 199.00 engines out there, but you will see that the toolset/editor lacks features for rapid production. T3D is around the same price as Unity, yet it has a lot more features than Unity, plus you get Source Code. TGEA still has alot to offer if you do not want to upgrade to T3D. As an artist (im not a programmer), most of whats out there has nothing to offer me, you have to be a coding genius just to do the simplest task. 
#8
So although what David said is perfectly understandable and can be easily agreed with, there is this feeling of the newer shinier thing
is the only way to go and support for anything else feels non-existent.
Although it appears there might be a multi-tier offereing for Torque3D,
why not make it easy to buy TGE, and maybe push some bug fixes for it once in awhile? Plenty of users of it giving great fixes for it so you could use that and incorporate it back in to TGE.
That way its more of, hey use the new cool thing or if you like go ahead and use this other great less expensive engine called TGE.
I dont think people are expecting feature releases for TGE but it does seem like it just got dumped and the users of it were left by the side of the road.
Maybe if GG does not want to continue to support it that a trusted group in the community could support it.
Maybe thats all just misunderstanding or misinterpretation, who knows, but there was definitely a shift towards the new shiny, more expensive, choice and a push for it to be the only GG 3D choice.
09/02/2009 (3:11 pm)
I'm wondering if the feeling of abandonement comes from the fact that its not clear how to buy the cheaper engine (TGE) and that its been pretty much dropped, no more updates, not even bug fix updates.So although what David said is perfectly understandable and can be easily agreed with, there is this feeling of the newer shinier thing
is the only way to go and support for anything else feels non-existent.
Although it appears there might be a multi-tier offereing for Torque3D,
why not make it easy to buy TGE, and maybe push some bug fixes for it once in awhile? Plenty of users of it giving great fixes for it so you could use that and incorporate it back in to TGE.
That way its more of, hey use the new cool thing or if you like go ahead and use this other great less expensive engine called TGE.
I dont think people are expecting feature releases for TGE but it does seem like it just got dumped and the users of it were left by the side of the road.
Maybe if GG does not want to continue to support it that a trusted group in the community could support it.
Maybe thats all just misunderstanding or misinterpretation, who knows, but there was definitely a shift towards the new shiny, more expensive, choice and a push for it to be the only GG 3D choice.
#9
Personally, I'd love to see TGE go open-source. Who knows if that will ever happen, but I was a huge fan of id's decision to GPL their older tech.
09/02/2009 (6:19 pm)
I don't know on the support side for TGE. Should Microsoft release patches for Visual C++ 1.0 or Conitec release patches for A3? Justifying putting paid support into an older product is a difficult proposition.Personally, I'd love to see TGE go open-source. Who knows if that will ever happen, but I was a huge fan of id's decision to GPL their older tech.
#10
09/02/2009 (6:59 pm)
Second on the TGE open-source idea, I think it'd be great free advertising as a taster for T3D. 
#11
09/02/2009 (8:40 pm)
its been suggested a few times, and i could see it being open sourced.. the problem is alot of folks are still using TGE tech for their games, since tgea and other items are still in need of some critical updates and documentation. We know its on the way. but lets gets TGEA cleaned up first before open sourcing.
#12
Unfortunately for C4, that's no longer going to be the case. The good news is that all the old C4 licensees will continue to get free updates for life. The bad news is that any new licensees with version 1.6 (a big update!) will be paying a renewal fee each year, so it'll pay to get in now. I did. I couldnt justify T3D.
09/02/2009 (9:42 pm)
Quote:DMB wrote: This topic has been argued to death in our community and abroad. It was argued when we announced an upgrade price for TGE 1.5. $50 was too much for an upgrade (less, if you had already paid for the lighting kit). The C4 community rallied against Eric's upgrade pricing which caused him to relent and continue his "free upgrades for life" policy. I hope it is working out well for him. Even as a one-man shop who publishes articles and books, I'm sure times are tough. They're tough for everyone, especially if you have a team of engineers making a product.
<snip>
Unfortunately for C4, that's no longer going to be the case. The good news is that all the old C4 licensees will continue to get free updates for life. The bad news is that any new licensees with version 1.6 (a big update!) will be paying a renewal fee each year, so it'll pay to get in now. I did. I couldnt justify T3D.
#14
http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque-3d
$250 for the basic version of T3D and you think GG is abandoning the indie?
ugh...
Really dude? I mean... Come on...
If you can't afford to spend $250 for the basic version of Torque3D, do you really think you should even be looking at a game engine at all?
-Pete
09/03/2009 (2:12 am)
Really dude?http://www.garagegames.com/products/torque-3d
$250 for the basic version of T3D and you think GG is abandoning the indie?
ugh...
Really dude? I mean... Come on...
If you can't afford to spend $250 for the basic version of Torque3D, do you really think you should even be looking at a game engine at all?
-Pete
#15
It's been a little while since I've been over there. I hope that licensees are accepting of the change (since it doesn't affect existing licensees). Eric's a strong developer with a nice engine; I want to see him succeed financially. He already has a strong developer base supporting him in spirit.
09/03/2009 (10:45 am)
@Phoenix_GGIt's been a little while since I've been over there. I hope that licensees are accepting of the change (since it doesn't affect existing licensees). Eric's a strong developer with a nice engine; I want to see him succeed financially. He already has a strong developer base supporting him in spirit.
#16
I agree with David M. We can argue all night about how there are hobbyists and indies, but the line is very thin in many cases. There are guys like me that are indies and hire work done when needed, but are largely a one or two man operation at most. Most of the time I am a hobbyist but when I get a good idea for game I go for it and try to publish it.
Bottom line is that the huge jump in price was just shocking. Perhaps as we tend to get used to the rise in gas prices I will get used to the rise in the engine cost. Yes, Pete, I can get the stripped down version of Torque 3D but it does not support generas or the improved lighting and so on. Maybe I just need to see the quality of the cheap version and see what it is like. Like I said, right now I am just suffering from a bad case of sticker shock.
Believe me I love GG or wouldn't even have written this. They do quality work and the community is what makes them awesome. Remember what I am saying. It is the community that makes them awesome. The more expensive the engine gets the more community members will drop out. Perhaps the older engine could be open sourced at some point and just stay a generation behind. Look what happened to Tribes 3: the community was ignored and the mods were ignored and the game fell flat on its face.
09/03/2009 (5:16 pm)
I think "The Martian" hit the nail on the head. I purshased the 1.5.2 engine and got on board with GG then came TGEA which looked good and was still decently priced. Then a short time later came Torque 3d. GG is moving faster than Microsoft right now and the prices keep climbing. I do feel like 1.5 got dumped and no clear upgrade path in that price range. I agree with David M. We can argue all night about how there are hobbyists and indies, but the line is very thin in many cases. There are guys like me that are indies and hire work done when needed, but are largely a one or two man operation at most. Most of the time I am a hobbyist but when I get a good idea for game I go for it and try to publish it.
Bottom line is that the huge jump in price was just shocking. Perhaps as we tend to get used to the rise in gas prices I will get used to the rise in the engine cost. Yes, Pete, I can get the stripped down version of Torque 3D but it does not support generas or the improved lighting and so on. Maybe I just need to see the quality of the cheap version and see what it is like. Like I said, right now I am just suffering from a bad case of sticker shock.
Believe me I love GG or wouldn't even have written this. They do quality work and the community is what makes them awesome. Remember what I am saying. It is the community that makes them awesome. The more expensive the engine gets the more community members will drop out. Perhaps the older engine could be open sourced at some point and just stay a generation behind. Look what happened to Tribes 3: the community was ignored and the mods were ignored and the game fell flat on its face.
#17
Why exactly should Torque either: a) Devalue its code, or b) cease development, because some people are upset they can't afford the latest-greatest? I'm so confused...
09/03/2009 (6:40 pm)
As far as I know, there is one other commercially available engine shipping a pre-pass lighting solution: Crytek 3.Why exactly should Torque either: a) Devalue its code, or b) cease development, because some people are upset they can't afford the latest-greatest? I'm so confused...
#19
09/03/2009 (10:06 pm)
Is this guy for real or is someone having a laugh ? 
#20
There is a large group of people who have already purchased Torque 3D at the current price point.
09/04/2009 (12:07 am)
The quality and features that we have been able to build into Torque 3D because of the higher price point has actually caused the community to grow quite a bit already this year.There is a large group of people who have already purchased Torque 3D at the current price point.
Associate Scott Burns
GG Alumni