Don't forget where you came from...
by Jacob Dankovchik · 10/09/2011 (7:50 pm) · 18 comments
So... Torque 3D 1.2 is going to cost me 50 bucks. Well, not too bad I suppose... Even though I already paid quite a bit of money to get the engine in the first place, far more than the $100 everyone gets to pay now. Not to mention when I bought it, the engine was barely usable at all...
So next step is shell out another $50 for the 1.2 update which should bring a nice feature like disembodied arms! Unfortunate that such effects have existed since the dawn of the first person shooter. Also a pity that the engine will no doubt still come with HDR effects that make your eyes bleed rather than help anything, SSAO that looks like someone just spit ink all over the screen and called it good, or depth of field that's about as broken as it gets.
But hey, at least the wetness effect came out right! Oh wait, now I remember. Despite being advertised in the beta demo, we never got that effect in any form whatsoever. Well, at least AI was improved from the grossly primitive shell of TGE that was virtually nonfunctional... Oh, oops, was reading the wrong engine notes.
Wellll, at least Torque is at the forefront of advanced technology for affordable prices. It isn't like there's a competing engine that is grossly more stable, updated monthly at least, and is thoroughly polished with post-processing effects and AI. It'd be even more bad for Torque if such an engine were free. But thankfully that doesn't exis-... What? UDK? Where'd YOU come from??....
See where I'm getting at so far? Hope so.
As I also mentioned, I have my own personal reasons for some of this rant and why I feel this is particularly insulting...
Something I found fun a few years back was one day I was randomly browsing the TGEA product page (at the time was still known as Torque Shader Engine). I noticed they did some updates to the page, so I checked it out, noticed some new screenshots. As I'm flipping through, I found EIGHT of my own screenshots in there. This was particularly shocking because never was I asked for these to be used, or contacted in ANY way whatsoever. Now, perhaps there's a clause I agreed to that by posting on the forums they could use my stuff? Most likely, and that's cool. But that shouldn't mean you're above contacting the person out of courtesy, should it?
Also something fun to note... L3DT for Torque. When that came out, I couldn't help but notice something about the banner looked SO familiar. Until I realized the background image was a screenshot from one of my scenes, Crater Lake. Flipping through the screenshots, I couldn't help but also notice 3 other renders of mine in there. Been a few years now, just now checked, and they are in fact all still there. Never once heard anything about this though...
So it's nice to know that my work is being used to make yourselves money... It isn't that I'm demanding it be removed or something like that, it's just that it'd REALLY be nice for you to acknowledge where it came from. Just like the title of this blog says... (this is all also excusing the fact that there are many cases where I publicly announced/demonstrated stuff, only to shortly thereafter see a bastardized version of it enter Torque... You've taught me to never reveal work in progress publicly, GG. Thanks)
But also on top of that, after paying 10 times for Torque what people have to pay now, I STILL have to pay more for updates to an engine that is still ridiculously behind the competition in terms of functionality and stability. So despite having handed over plenty of money already, as well as having my work used to make YOU money without me knowing, I still have to keep on paying just to hope that I can get an engine that is able to compete with the free ones currently on the market.
"But you have the source code, do it yourself!". Na. I didn't buy an engine so I could program one, if I wanted to do that I'd just save my money. I'd instead use a FREE engine like UDK which is pretty damn solid... However I've always had a desire to support GG and their supposed philosophy, which is why I'm still here, nearly EIGHT years later. It's getting quite a bit harder though, that's for damn sure.
I don't know.. I guess here's to hoping that after another $50 of my money, GG will figure out how to fix bugs correctly (because I've already found a few that were "fixed" for 1.1 but actually weren't. And yes, I reported it, and yes, I was ignored), or perhaps write a working post-processing effect. (Something I find hilarious is day before yesterday, I was bored and decided to do some shader programming for the first time in 6 months. 45 minutes later, I had working post motion blur via per-pixel velocity calculations... And no, I'm not going to share the information on it)
So again GarageGames, you really need to take a moment and reflect on who you are and why you're here. You may "know" it, but you most certainly don't appreciate it. If you did, I wouldn't be typing this. And I don't give a rat's ass if my money went to an "old" company, or how much you paid for your chinatown demo, that isn't my fault and I shouldn't be punished for it. You want a good demo? Pay my rent for next month and I'll HAPPILY make you something better than Chinatown in a fraction of the time. (Because sorry but it really isn't THAT impressive... decent, but little more) You don't need to waste hundreds of thousands of dollars on work that could only cost a few hundred at most. By snatching up my images for advertisement, it's obvious you have no issue in using your community. So try cutting some cost corners there if it means you won't have to screw some of us over so hard. Just this time, let us know before hand.
And of course, I know already that none of this will matter, or will happen. Someone MIGHT read this all, probably not, and nobody will actually care. You'll probably respond with something that either pretends to actually care, or just dismisses the entire matter. Eight years and nothing much has changed, so I'm not holding my breath. But considering this is my first and only rant in those 8 long years, I think I'm a bit justified in venting, even if it'll just fall on deaf ears.
So next step is shell out another $50 for the 1.2 update which should bring a nice feature like disembodied arms! Unfortunate that such effects have existed since the dawn of the first person shooter. Also a pity that the engine will no doubt still come with HDR effects that make your eyes bleed rather than help anything, SSAO that looks like someone just spit ink all over the screen and called it good, or depth of field that's about as broken as it gets.
But hey, at least the wetness effect came out right! Oh wait, now I remember. Despite being advertised in the beta demo, we never got that effect in any form whatsoever. Well, at least AI was improved from the grossly primitive shell of TGE that was virtually nonfunctional... Oh, oops, was reading the wrong engine notes.
Wellll, at least Torque is at the forefront of advanced technology for affordable prices. It isn't like there's a competing engine that is grossly more stable, updated monthly at least, and is thoroughly polished with post-processing effects and AI. It'd be even more bad for Torque if such an engine were free. But thankfully that doesn't exis-... What? UDK? Where'd YOU come from??....
See where I'm getting at so far? Hope so.
As I also mentioned, I have my own personal reasons for some of this rant and why I feel this is particularly insulting...
Something I found fun a few years back was one day I was randomly browsing the TGEA product page (at the time was still known as Torque Shader Engine). I noticed they did some updates to the page, so I checked it out, noticed some new screenshots. As I'm flipping through, I found EIGHT of my own screenshots in there. This was particularly shocking because never was I asked for these to be used, or contacted in ANY way whatsoever. Now, perhaps there's a clause I agreed to that by posting on the forums they could use my stuff? Most likely, and that's cool. But that shouldn't mean you're above contacting the person out of courtesy, should it?
Also something fun to note... L3DT for Torque. When that came out, I couldn't help but notice something about the banner looked SO familiar. Until I realized the background image was a screenshot from one of my scenes, Crater Lake. Flipping through the screenshots, I couldn't help but also notice 3 other renders of mine in there. Been a few years now, just now checked, and they are in fact all still there. Never once heard anything about this though...
So it's nice to know that my work is being used to make yourselves money... It isn't that I'm demanding it be removed or something like that, it's just that it'd REALLY be nice for you to acknowledge where it came from. Just like the title of this blog says... (this is all also excusing the fact that there are many cases where I publicly announced/demonstrated stuff, only to shortly thereafter see a bastardized version of it enter Torque... You've taught me to never reveal work in progress publicly, GG. Thanks)
But also on top of that, after paying 10 times for Torque what people have to pay now, I STILL have to pay more for updates to an engine that is still ridiculously behind the competition in terms of functionality and stability. So despite having handed over plenty of money already, as well as having my work used to make YOU money without me knowing, I still have to keep on paying just to hope that I can get an engine that is able to compete with the free ones currently on the market.
"But you have the source code, do it yourself!". Na. I didn't buy an engine so I could program one, if I wanted to do that I'd just save my money. I'd instead use a FREE engine like UDK which is pretty damn solid... However I've always had a desire to support GG and their supposed philosophy, which is why I'm still here, nearly EIGHT years later. It's getting quite a bit harder though, that's for damn sure.
I don't know.. I guess here's to hoping that after another $50 of my money, GG will figure out how to fix bugs correctly (because I've already found a few that were "fixed" for 1.1 but actually weren't. And yes, I reported it, and yes, I was ignored), or perhaps write a working post-processing effect. (Something I find hilarious is day before yesterday, I was bored and decided to do some shader programming for the first time in 6 months. 45 minutes later, I had working post motion blur via per-pixel velocity calculations... And no, I'm not going to share the information on it)
So again GarageGames, you really need to take a moment and reflect on who you are and why you're here. You may "know" it, but you most certainly don't appreciate it. If you did, I wouldn't be typing this. And I don't give a rat's ass if my money went to an "old" company, or how much you paid for your chinatown demo, that isn't my fault and I shouldn't be punished for it. You want a good demo? Pay my rent for next month and I'll HAPPILY make you something better than Chinatown in a fraction of the time. (Because sorry but it really isn't THAT impressive... decent, but little more) You don't need to waste hundreds of thousands of dollars on work that could only cost a few hundred at most. By snatching up my images for advertisement, it's obvious you have no issue in using your community. So try cutting some cost corners there if it means you won't have to screw some of us over so hard. Just this time, let us know before hand.
And of course, I know already that none of this will matter, or will happen. Someone MIGHT read this all, probably not, and nobody will actually care. You'll probably respond with something that either pretends to actually care, or just dismisses the entire matter. Eight years and nothing much has changed, so I'm not holding my breath. But considering this is my first and only rant in those 8 long years, I think I'm a bit justified in venting, even if it'll just fall on deaf ears.
#2
As for the rest I entirely agree with you but I too want Torque to continue and grow so I will gladly pay an addition sum for enhancements to the engine (I'll scream bloody murder if I have to pay for bug fixes). I'm just glad that they haven't gone with a subscription model because if they do I'll change engine quick smart.
Why don't you release your 'post motion blur' as an add-on pack or something similar? You just might get back all your investment in Torque...
10/10/2011 (1:45 am)
I feel I need to point out that UDK is hardly free. $0 upfront, yes but $100 when you publish then comes 25% of your total revenue (not profit, big difference) that your company makes and that includes anything not related to the game (read the fine print you get when you publish). As for the rest I entirely agree with you but I too want Torque to continue and grow so I will gladly pay an addition sum for enhancements to the engine (I'll scream bloody murder if I have to pay for bug fixes). I'm just glad that they haven't gone with a subscription model because if they do I'll change engine quick smart.
Why don't you release your 'post motion blur' as an add-on pack or something similar? You just might get back all your investment in Torque...
#3
When the $99 price was announced, i bought TGB and iTGB as well. 6 Month later, Bam ! I needed to pay to get iTGB v1.5, needless to say i wasn't happy. Then now i see i have to pay to get T3D v1.2.
I already have some projects ported to Unity and i have to say that the free version is pretty damn solid as well. Only thing i hate is the activation limit on the pro version, but thats a small nitpick.
10/10/2011 (3:39 am)
Well, i have to agree that the paid update came as pretty much of a shock for me as well. I've supported Torque since TGE to TGEA and even paid the serious $$$ for T3D. I've used it for some projects, and i have some project which are currently already built on T3D. I'll continue on working on existing projects but i doubt i will pay to upgrade to 1.2 as i don't really feel like paying anymore. When the $99 price was announced, i bought TGB and iTGB as well. 6 Month later, Bam ! I needed to pay to get iTGB v1.5, needless to say i wasn't happy. Then now i see i have to pay to get T3D v1.2.
I already have some projects ported to Unity and i have to say that the free version is pretty damn solid as well. Only thing i hate is the activation limit on the pro version, but thats a small nitpick.
#4
10/10/2011 (7:36 am)
I'm just a lurker on the forums, but I visit GarageGames every day. I use Torque for world building and will probably never produce a game. I bought the engine in beta and don't feel it ever reached what was promised in the initial blogs, in fact, many of the demo levels were taken out. I wouldn't have a problem with paying for an update if the engine was at the state that was promised in those original blogs. I won't be buying or using the engine anymore, but I'm not all that mad about it either. A bit heartbroken to move on, but not mad at the company. Afterall, it was stated that the genre packs would be additional, and that's how I really look at this upgrade. I just don't like the thought of paying for each update and being nickel and dimed to death for each new feature like back in the day. Its a company and they need to make money, but as it stands, there are other options. UDK is not that bad, and the royalty's thing isn't an issue for me personally since I just want to make pretty things. I think everyone has feelings about this, and rightly so. I personally wish GG the best, but hope they don't go crazy on the update charges. 
#5
How did you report them? I'd like to know what bugs you are referring to.
10/10/2011 (7:52 am)
@Jacob - Are your screenshots still posted? I'll take them down or add thanks or credit to you. That's not something that would happen today.Quote:because I've already found a few that were "fixed" for 1.1 but actually weren't. And yes, I reported it, and yes, I was ignored
How did you report them? I'd like to know what bugs you are referring to.
#6
I recently decided to grab T3D, since it does have some nice features for the price, but as I've started building stuff with it, I'm finding that the editor usability is still lacking. It's hugely better than it was in TGE or TGEA, but compared to say, Unity3D, or an in-game editor like what's in Crysis or Farcry 2...? Yeah, T3D's editor kinda sucks.
I'd personally like to see GG focus on polishing the engine and stop screwing around with art and levels (and then charging an "engine upgrade" for them).
A) Optimize the engine so it can run well on older hardware (e.g. Farcry 2 has all the features of T3D, but somehow manages to run extremely well on older hardware...and looks better doing it.)
B) Bring the ease-of-use up to par with Unity3D. Make the world editor on-par with Farcry 2's. Or Crysis's. Or Morrowind's. Or just about any other commercial game editor out there. It's not like it's hard to find examples to emulate.
C) Fix the visual defects... e.g. it's the stuff like this that GG should be fixing (and not waiting for community members to fix for them).
Garage Games really needs to step up their game at this point, or risk fading into obscurity. No matter how GG tries to spin it, UDK and Unity3D are looking shinier and shinier to a lot of us here... it's not even so much that they are free (well, free-ish), it's that they are better engines to work with.
10/10/2011 (2:24 pm)
I have to echo the sentiment here... I recently decided to grab T3D, since it does have some nice features for the price, but as I've started building stuff with it, I'm finding that the editor usability is still lacking. It's hugely better than it was in TGE or TGEA, but compared to say, Unity3D, or an in-game editor like what's in Crysis or Farcry 2...? Yeah, T3D's editor kinda sucks.
I'd personally like to see GG focus on polishing the engine and stop screwing around with art and levels (and then charging an "engine upgrade" for them).
A) Optimize the engine so it can run well on older hardware (e.g. Farcry 2 has all the features of T3D, but somehow manages to run extremely well on older hardware...and looks better doing it.)
B) Bring the ease-of-use up to par with Unity3D. Make the world editor on-par with Farcry 2's. Or Crysis's. Or Morrowind's. Or just about any other commercial game editor out there. It's not like it's hard to find examples to emulate.
C) Fix the visual defects... e.g. it's the stuff like this that GG should be fixing (and not waiting for community members to fix for them).
Garage Games really needs to step up their game at this point, or risk fading into obscurity. No matter how GG tries to spin it, UDK and Unity3D are looking shinier and shinier to a lot of us here... it's not even so much that they are free (well, free-ish), it's that they are better engines to work with.
#7
10/11/2011 (7:14 am)
Removed due to bad wording causing misunderstanding 
#8
I want GG to make T3D 1.5 voice command so I can talk to my pc and make the game while playing video games.
10/11/2011 (10:08 am)
I dont know what you guys are talking about, the demo was there to download so you can see what you where getting into, the forums are there as well, I know that T3D since TGE is a great first person shooter starter kit, so people dont have to start from scratch. No Royalties, awsome at prototyping for those that dont like to write a game design doc which is key to success in a video game. Why are you trying to make it sound like the open source code is not great when its just a + because you can just script everything, then if you want to make it more efficient you can move it to the code. If you are scriting at that level you should not have a problem learning c++ if not you should already know it. I want GG to make T3D 1.5 voice command so I can talk to my pc and make the game while playing video games.
#9
That's hardly the engine ot company's fault. If you copy you have yourself to blame. And to be shut down you must have been already in an advanced state for it to show any likeness with anything existing and call some IP owner's atention to it. So those "fights" weren't so bad as to be an issue preventing you from producing anything.
Haven't been long in this community but have seen this rants everytime prices are announced. Don't think the issue is that the engine is as bad as you all say, only that you want to keep getting it free.
Trust me, i would love to have that too. But i am not seeing anyone here voluntearing to support their familys while they build the engine for free.
10/11/2011 (4:05 pm)
Quote:we have yet to actually produce anything due to constant fights with the engine. Only to be shot down because our ideas were to close to something already created.
That's hardly the engine ot company's fault. If you copy you have yourself to blame. And to be shut down you must have been already in an advanced state for it to show any likeness with anything existing and call some IP owner's atention to it. So those "fights" weren't so bad as to be an issue preventing you from producing anything.
Haven't been long in this community but have seen this rants everytime prices are announced. Don't think the issue is that the engine is as bad as you all say, only that you want to keep getting it free.
Trust me, i would love to have that too. But i am not seeing anyone here voluntearing to support their familys while they build the engine for free.
#10
I also want to say that everyone has a right to their opinion about a product, but the moment you rant in a blog anyone can read is the moment people will judge you and your company/product. All in all it's ok to rant just keep in mind to choose your words wisely.
10/11/2011 (6:32 pm)
Luis has a point. One thing I would like to add is if you don't like the product or the community, don't buy the product and don't go to the community.I also want to say that everyone has a right to their opinion about a product, but the moment you rant in a blog anyone can read is the moment people will judge you and your company/product. All in all it's ok to rant just keep in mind to choose your words wisely.
#11
Stability has not really been an issue for what I do, but both T3d and UDK fit my engine needs. There are things I don't like in both engines, but to be honest, UDK is a AAA engine so it is a bit unfair to compare the two. I bought Torque because I liked what the company stood for. Since the relaunch, the blogs and survey that was done seem to show that the company is getting back on track after a rough snag, but everyone needs to understand that people are still going to be cautious. I wasn't going to pick up 1.2 after the price announcement, and I still may not, but it isn't about price. For me it's about seeing things possibly going back down the wrong path. For now I'm going to have faith that GG knows what they are doing and wait for a full feature list with the bug fixes to decide.
In all, I really just wanted to post somewhere about my personal concerns. I'm not mad at GarageGames, and don't want them to work for free or go out of business, but from the consumer end, I want to make sure I'm still siding with a product that makes sense for me.
10/11/2011 (7:32 pm)
The issue for me is not wanting a free engine, rather a company I am confident in again. I dropped the money on T3d right away when it was announced knowing I would never make a game with it. I also own a license for Zbrush and 3ds Max. I do not mind paying for tools or engines, but GG is just relaunching from a shaky end and immediately they are asking for money for a 1.2 upgrade to the engine. I have thought a lot since my last post in this thread, and I have to admit that things like Eric's "What I Believe About GarageGames" thread kinda tug at my heartstrings, but I do see both sides of the issue.Stability has not really been an issue for what I do, but both T3d and UDK fit my engine needs. There are things I don't like in both engines, but to be honest, UDK is a AAA engine so it is a bit unfair to compare the two. I bought Torque because I liked what the company stood for. Since the relaunch, the blogs and survey that was done seem to show that the company is getting back on track after a rough snag, but everyone needs to understand that people are still going to be cautious. I wasn't going to pick up 1.2 after the price announcement, and I still may not, but it isn't about price. For me it's about seeing things possibly going back down the wrong path. For now I'm going to have faith that GG knows what they are doing and wait for a full feature list with the bug fixes to decide.
In all, I really just wanted to post somewhere about my personal concerns. I'm not mad at GarageGames, and don't want them to work for free or go out of business, but from the consumer end, I want to make sure I'm still siding with a product that makes sense for me.
#12
Also we never stole Ip's from anyone, some of our stuff was parody work, which we gave credit and never intended to sell, but it was raped by the community because it was based on another ip. I feel that the community sometimes has a closed mind about peoples games and what is and is not indie.
As for the engine prices I will quote Joseph
10/12/2011 (3:04 pm)
My statements were meant to be more like Joseph's but I was bad at wording.Also we never stole Ip's from anyone, some of our stuff was parody work, which we gave credit and never intended to sell, but it was raped by the community because it was based on another ip. I feel that the community sometimes has a closed mind about peoples games and what is and is not indie.
As for the engine prices I will quote Joseph
Quote:For now I'm going to have faith that GG knows what they are doing and wait for a full feature list with the bug fixes to decide.
#13
I just started my own Game Dev company Grr Moo Games © as of this year, I am used to working with GameMaker for simple games, and in the hay day of UT2004 worked on a few mod teams that all just kind of up and quit after a while. I come back a few years later after getting a new computer [old one died] and UDK3 is far beyond what I remember working with in UT2004, Game Maker is supped up too, and there are A LOT of new dev kits on the market. I feel like when I got T3D 1.1 pro at only $99 I got what I paid for, almost bare of starter content, almost no explanation of any features or basics. What I dont get is how it was advertised as a more simplistic engine for even NON programmers and after I get it I find I cant do anything without scripting and knowing some Python or CScript or something, I bought the Advanced AI pack soon after getting the engine so I could start concept projects right off the bat, but even that requires at least a decent understanding of the engine to even implement it.
After finding myself lacking in any key skills needed for T3D I only use it to try and world build with what little is already there. Even though I got the engine during a fire sale price, I would be willing to pay 1K for some REAL engine upgrades to make it as advertised and more new user friendly. I will shell out the $50 or so for 1.2 mostly JUST for the tutorial but I would like to advise GG that as a newcomer to this wonderful community I feel like there has been a drastic need that just now is getting attention. I do hope that the new direction GG is taking is for the best of the community and the end users that will one day be playing our products.
10/12/2011 (4:18 pm)
I guess I should weigh in on this too... I feel... compelled to get my opinion in also.I just started my own Game Dev company Grr Moo Games © as of this year, I am used to working with GameMaker for simple games, and in the hay day of UT2004 worked on a few mod teams that all just kind of up and quit after a while. I come back a few years later after getting a new computer [old one died] and UDK3 is far beyond what I remember working with in UT2004, Game Maker is supped up too, and there are A LOT of new dev kits on the market. I feel like when I got T3D 1.1 pro at only $99 I got what I paid for, almost bare of starter content, almost no explanation of any features or basics. What I dont get is how it was advertised as a more simplistic engine for even NON programmers and after I get it I find I cant do anything without scripting and knowing some Python or CScript or something, I bought the Advanced AI pack soon after getting the engine so I could start concept projects right off the bat, but even that requires at least a decent understanding of the engine to even implement it.
After finding myself lacking in any key skills needed for T3D I only use it to try and world build with what little is already there. Even though I got the engine during a fire sale price, I would be willing to pay 1K for some REAL engine upgrades to make it as advertised and more new user friendly. I will shell out the $50 or so for 1.2 mostly JUST for the tutorial but I would like to advise GG that as a newcomer to this wonderful community I feel like there has been a drastic need that just now is getting attention. I do hope that the new direction GG is taking is for the best of the community and the end users that will one day be playing our products.
#14
Read my post again - i never said you stole IP from anyone. I said that to get shut down as you had said you were, the state of your game would be advanced as to show any likeness to an IP in existence.
Also, selling or not, parody or not, it's still someone else's IP and they can decide not to allow it.
In the 70's Disney ordered a comic book to stop beeing produced because one character in it was a parody of Mickey Mouse. That's how strong IP laws are.
10/13/2011 (9:50 am)
@AdamQuote:Also we never stole Ip's from anyone, some of our stuff was parody work, which we gave credit and never intended to sell
Read my post again - i never said you stole IP from anyone. I said that to get shut down as you had said you were, the state of your game would be advanced as to show any likeness to an IP in existence.
Also, selling or not, parody or not, it's still someone else's IP and they can decide not to allow it.
In the 70's Disney ordered a comic book to stop beeing produced because one character in it was a parody of Mickey Mouse. That's how strong IP laws are.
#15
10/13/2011 (9:14 pm)
Definately got to be careful even when parodying someone else work. If the original people tell you to get rid of it, you almost always have to follow their order. I remember doing a text based rpg in the final fantasy universe like 8-10 years ago. I always had dreams of it being the biggest one out there and I'm glad it failed.
#16
The unfortunate issue is that fixing the GUI system as is is very costly (fix one thing, it breaks another). We desire a 3rd party GUI system so that we can focus on usability and functionality and not on 1st party GUI development.
10/14/2011 (12:31 pm)
Usability is a big topic for me personally. For example, we've been doing usability testing on the tutorial once a week for the past three months. Making sure we have a polished guided experience is the quickest thing we can do. It's step one of many.The unfortunate issue is that fixing the GUI system as is is very costly (fix one thing, it breaks another). We desire a 3rd party GUI system so that we can focus on usability and functionality and not on 1st party GUI development.
#17
Playing arm-chair executive here, some suggestions:
1) Let the code owners see nightly builds, including these new docs. That way we see the progress. Easy-ish to implement and it may help.
2) I think I have a bit of the feeling @Baron mentions, which is that this engine isn't *really* for non programmers. Go ahead and market it for what it is instead of what it would be nice if it were. :P
3) I thought of how nice it would be to replace the GUI also... until I started to "get it". If I learn the GUI classes and how they integrate into TorqueScript:
That's pretty cool. Having said that, the GUI is way too complicated and under-documented to take a chance on going down that avenue. But I like what it *could have been*.
Still I wonder if simplifying it and documenting it wouldn't be a big win. (For instance, take out "profiles," and integrate the GUI Editor into the Scene Editor, and make the editor more intuitive.)
If you guys really go all-new, check out the latest Qt. Extremely capable, cross platform, and fully LGPL. (Game writers should be able to include it in their games, too.) It even has some gaming elements like collision detection and path animation. Perhaps Qt could fit under a TorqueScript wrapper even.)
Need more arm-chair decision making? I'm your man! <evil grin>
10/18/2011 (11:12 am)
@Eric et al. I've taken over a project before that was in the customer's hands but needed a LOT of revamping. And it sucks to hear about faults of the past. My heart goes out to you! Keep up the good work!Playing arm-chair executive here, some suggestions:
1) Let the code owners see nightly builds, including these new docs. That way we see the progress. Easy-ish to implement and it may help.
2) I think I have a bit of the feeling @Baron mentions, which is that this engine isn't *really* for non programmers. Go ahead and market it for what it is instead of what it would be nice if it were. :P
3) I thought of how nice it would be to replace the GUI also... until I started to "get it". If I learn the GUI classes and how they integrate into TorqueScript:
- I could add sophisticated main menus to my game
- awesomely, I could even build my own in-game editor
- and most awesomely, I could extend the Torque Game Editor, as a tool builder for a team, so it would have custom features for the game being written.
That's pretty cool. Having said that, the GUI is way too complicated and under-documented to take a chance on going down that avenue. But I like what it *could have been*.
Still I wonder if simplifying it and documenting it wouldn't be a big win. (For instance, take out "profiles," and integrate the GUI Editor into the Scene Editor, and make the editor more intuitive.)
If you guys really go all-new, check out the latest Qt. Extremely capable, cross platform, and fully LGPL. (Game writers should be able to include it in their games, too.) It even has some gaming elements like collision detection and path animation. Perhaps Qt could fit under a TorqueScript wrapper even.)
Need more arm-chair decision making? I'm your man! <evil grin>
#18
10/18/2011 (11:20 am)
@Charlie - All good feedback and conversations that we've had as well. We are definitely working towards some of your suggestions. 
Torque Owner Edward Smith
Silencersoft
It's like we keep getting burnt. But want them to succeed when really there is a solution out there that we would better be spending out time with (UDK).
I'd never understand why they would bother to make a demo that they didn't give to the community? Surely it's better to give a great demo to people and say and you have this to work with rather then a few photos or videos of it.
Everything that GG makes and shows off should be in the next release as simple as that.
Since 1.1 I was happy with GG, I felt everything was back on track, finally we would get what they promise but then $$$. Next will be 1.3 and maybe 1.4 for free. Then 1.5 will be Torque Fancy Engine and it'll be $1000!
Torque 3D is slow and buggy, 1.1 is what 1.0 should have been (still lacks features but yeah).
GG is new people so they need new money... But is it really new people?