For the sake of it
by Apparatus · 01/15/2009 (9:43 am) · 16 comments
A lot of bashing around these days, a lot of people frustrated, fewer happy (patient maybe), some quietly waiting around to see what happens, and what happens is, GG is trying to pin down a way to survive. What, I am still surprised it's not dead altogether; I've seen hostile takeovers and the subsequent damages were not nice to look at. Give it a break guys, for 8 years you had nifty (sometimes awarded) code at your disposal, for 8 years you've been part of the only community left alive (halflife modding was another one as alive as this). Ouch, we're out of patience and understanding so abruptly we use bad language and / or give up; you are free to do so, no law in existence denies you this right.
Without a doubt, the new site let down some and is certainly moving in a new direction. Why piss off unless you got stocks and you're afraid that will make them less worthy? Yes I know, you care because it looks like independent support is dropping off. That is not reflected in the games released by independent guys; Don't take it too personal, but independent developers are under 10; the whole rest of us are hobbyists. It so happens that our hobby was cheap enough so far; Yeah, try to license Source for a hobby, see if Valve will even bother to answer to your call.
I've seen bitching about from people with no community activity at all; worse, some without even a 'sdk owner' status. I've seen personal attacks and silly bitching about non-existent issues. Some people never bother to ask or look around before posting a slap arrogant paragraph without following the common sense of modern English spelling; I thought the mIRC age was gone and the :) lol wtf f*** stuff is welcome on casual boards. I should probably stop here because I get really angry when it comes to that; I make my own mistakes and what actually makes me angry is that I am a grown up and I can always count to 10 before doing something silly like asking a question answered 200 times before or moaning about somebody else not fixing my problems.
What makes you think the GG team is doing anything else than their job, that being staying alive and providing you something to play with? If you're good enough you can always pick up Irrlicht or some other weird thing and make it jump around with a game hat on. There are engines out there you cannot touch and features/performance wise are a lot less than Torque 1.3.
I have my own share of frustration, I am a source of frustration myself and I am old enough to understand that an incorporated business will never change course if I mumble around unhappy. I can choose to stay and see if I can manage the changes or I can choose something else. This is something for everybody to chew on: stay, leave, but with a certain amount of respect; If I were to leave GG because I don't like the new website, I would just do it quietly; Don't leave bitter crumbs behind so other people's dream shatters.
For the time being I am here; not very productive or active in the community but I am still checking up GG before checking up my Inbox. And to touch a few things related to this blog, here's my feedback for the web team:
The body can be a tad bigger, preview is restrictive, old formatting help is gone (for links, images and youtube / videos); I like the guidelines, now all that's left is for people to read them before posting.
That's it for now. Don't give up, believe. The truth is out there.
Apparatus
Without a doubt, the new site let down some and is certainly moving in a new direction. Why piss off unless you got stocks and you're afraid that will make them less worthy? Yes I know, you care because it looks like independent support is dropping off. That is not reflected in the games released by independent guys; Don't take it too personal, but independent developers are under 10; the whole rest of us are hobbyists. It so happens that our hobby was cheap enough so far; Yeah, try to license Source for a hobby, see if Valve will even bother to answer to your call.
I've seen bitching about from people with no community activity at all; worse, some without even a 'sdk owner' status. I've seen personal attacks and silly bitching about non-existent issues. Some people never bother to ask or look around before posting a slap arrogant paragraph without following the common sense of modern English spelling; I thought the mIRC age was gone and the :) lol wtf f*** stuff is welcome on casual boards. I should probably stop here because I get really angry when it comes to that; I make my own mistakes and what actually makes me angry is that I am a grown up and I can always count to 10 before doing something silly like asking a question answered 200 times before or moaning about somebody else not fixing my problems.
What makes you think the GG team is doing anything else than their job, that being staying alive and providing you something to play with? If you're good enough you can always pick up Irrlicht or some other weird thing and make it jump around with a game hat on. There are engines out there you cannot touch and features/performance wise are a lot less than Torque 1.3.
I have my own share of frustration, I am a source of frustration myself and I am old enough to understand that an incorporated business will never change course if I mumble around unhappy. I can choose to stay and see if I can manage the changes or I can choose something else. This is something for everybody to chew on: stay, leave, but with a certain amount of respect; If I were to leave GG because I don't like the new website, I would just do it quietly; Don't leave bitter crumbs behind so other people's dream shatters.
For the time being I am here; not very productive or active in the community but I am still checking up GG before checking up my Inbox. And to touch a few things related to this blog, here's my feedback for the web team:
The body can be a tad bigger, preview is restrictive, old formatting help is gone (for links, images and youtube / videos); I like the guidelines, now all that's left is for people to read them before posting.
That's it for now. Don't give up, believe. The truth is out there.
Apparatus
About the author
Tarakibu Studio
#2
But its all honest reaction. People loved the way it was, and are unsure of the way it will be. People are just feeling a little blind sided. You should'nt just be thinking of GG but of the people as well.
01/15/2009 (10:18 am)
Quote:I've seen bitching about from people with no community activity at all; worse, some without even a 'sdk owner' status. I've seen personal attacks and silly bitching about non-existent issues.
But its all honest reaction. People loved the way it was, and are unsure of the way it will be. People are just feeling a little blind sided. You should'nt just be thinking of GG but of the people as well.
#3
I think we need to calm down. and just say to GG guys constructive feedback.
PD: sorry bad english.
01/15/2009 (10:27 am)
I think is really stupid to say "I leave beacause I don't like the new site" that's a child answer to the "problem"... I really like GG try to make some new website, because it means they worry about "innovations", BUT in this case this "innovation" was terrific to the comunity.I think we need to calm down. and just say to GG guys constructive feedback.
PD: sorry bad english.
#4
There's definitely truth in what you say, Apparatus. What the reactions do show, though, is that people are passionate about this and really do care--and that's a good thing. There's been posts that don't quite classify as constructive criticism but what we can take away even from them is that it actually matters what's happening around here.
01/15/2009 (10:28 am)
There's definitely truth in what you say, Apparatus. What the reactions do show, though, is that people are passionate about this and really do care--and that's a good thing. There's been posts that don't quite classify as constructive criticism but what we can take away even from them is that it actually matters what's happening around here.
#5
It really depends on how serious you are about your hobby/project and how much you are willing to spend on it.
01/15/2009 (10:46 am)
I agree Apparatus, GG has produced quality products for hobby programmers and small independent development groups. Some hobbies have steep expenses related to them as your move up and become more involved. Look at R/C aircraft. You can start out cheap enough, however, over time a person is going to want more, and those costs add up really fast.It really depends on how serious you are about your hobby/project and how much you are willing to spend on it.
#6
So very very true... game development started as a hobby but somedays it's like an obsession, an addiction and when that's affected be it with internet problems, site implementations or whatever I'm crying out for my fix!!!
01/15/2009 (10:56 am)
Quote:
What the reactions do show, though, is that people are passionate about this and really do care--and that's a good thing.
So very very true... game development started as a hobby but somedays it's like an obsession, an addiction and when that's affected be it with internet problems, site implementations or whatever I'm crying out for my fix!!!
#7
As time goes by I find the calm like these (your blog and a few others) to be more constructive and engendering of community support for GarageGames than the endless nattering that seems so prevalent. It's a growing experience for everyone involved, but in time the potential is there for a more tightly knit whole.
01/15/2009 (1:07 pm)
A lot of passion and heated emotion around here lately hasn't there been? GarageGames' public relations and community responses has left a lot to be desired lately, but you're right that this is no reason for flame wars and senseless childish rants. I think that more people should count to 10 (or even 100!) before typing than have been. As time goes by I find the calm like these (your blog and a few others) to be more constructive and engendering of community support for GarageGames than the endless nattering that seems so prevalent. It's a growing experience for everyone involved, but in time the potential is there for a more tightly knit whole.
#8
Not sure what your point is here... There are many of us here that are just quietly doing our thing. No, we're not blogging all the time, or posting on the forums regularly, or doing whatever you consider to be "activity". But make no mistake, we are definitely active here! We read the forums and the blogs on a daily basis, we check out the new resources (and occasionally integrate them), we occasionally purchase content packs, etc. Turn that all upside down -- which is what the new site has done for many (most?) of us -- and hell yeah there's gonna be some "bitching!"
Oh and... Only Torque owners are entitled to express their opinions here? Seriously?! Wow. (O.o)
01/15/2009 (1:55 pm)
Quote:I've seen bitching about from people with no community activity at all; worse, some without even a 'sdk owner' status.
Not sure what your point is here... There are many of us here that are just quietly doing our thing. No, we're not blogging all the time, or posting on the forums regularly, or doing whatever you consider to be "activity". But make no mistake, we are definitely active here! We read the forums and the blogs on a daily basis, we check out the new resources (and occasionally integrate them), we occasionally purchase content packs, etc. Turn that all upside down -- which is what the new site has done for many (most?) of us -- and hell yeah there's gonna be some "bitching!"
Oh and... Only Torque owners are entitled to express their opinions here? Seriously?! Wow. (O.o)
#9
And when you actually own the sdk (w.ever of them) you are indeed, entitled to be more demanding. No disrespect meant.
01/15/2009 (2:44 pm)
To be part of a community you pretty much have to do both the bitching and the helping. And when you actually own the sdk (w.ever of them) you are indeed, entitled to be more demanding. No disrespect meant.
#10
Ehh gonna have to disagree you might have liked it but there have been ongoing complaints about the site for years.
I have been around here since 1002 and to be honest this is the second real update to the site. This is the first REAL OVERHAUL though.
I knew the site was coming though I didn't know it was coming this soon a bit more than one days heads up would have been nice. I naturally assumes that they had a few of the associates testing getting it ready for a smooth transition. Well as we can all see this was not the case.
I'm not upset with GG as a whole But I am very upset with whoever is responsible for the managing of this project. it boils do to the fact that whoever that was was careless and in a rush and didn't do any adequate testing. There is no way. as in NOT POSSIBLE that some of the most obvious bugs got through if even the most rudimentary testing was done.
Anyway if GG is gonna start asking for more money from people they need to start acting like they deserve it.
I still say that a screw up this big should have cost somebody their job. I know where I work this would not have flown. people would have been told to clean out their desk. Of course where I work this site would have been throughly tested and this would have never happened.
01/15/2009 (3:28 pm)
Quote:People loved the way it was, and are unsure of the way it will be. People are just feeling a little blind sided.
Ehh gonna have to disagree you might have liked it but there have been ongoing complaints about the site for years.
I have been around here since 1002 and to be honest this is the second real update to the site. This is the first REAL OVERHAUL though.
I knew the site was coming though I didn't know it was coming this soon a bit more than one days heads up would have been nice. I naturally assumes that they had a few of the associates testing getting it ready for a smooth transition. Well as we can all see this was not the case.
I'm not upset with GG as a whole But I am very upset with whoever is responsible for the managing of this project. it boils do to the fact that whoever that was was careless and in a rush and didn't do any adequate testing. There is no way. as in NOT POSSIBLE that some of the most obvious bugs got through if even the most rudimentary testing was done.
Anyway if GG is gonna start asking for more money from people they need to start acting like they deserve it.
I still say that a screw up this big should have cost somebody their job. I know where I work this would not have flown. people would have been told to clean out their desk. Of course where I work this site would have been throughly tested and this would have never happened.
#11
01/15/2009 (3:33 pm)
I meant since 2001 not 1002 lol sure wish that edit button was there.
#12
@Kevin - I'm sorry but reading posts, blogs or resources does not make you an Active member of the community - any more than sitting at home reading the newspaper would make you an active part of your local community, so I think Apparatus has a point.
Rather than complain and bitch about things though should you not be asking what you could be giving and doing yourself to improve the community? That's after all how great communities are built, a website is merely a tool at the end of the day.
01/15/2009 (3:50 pm)
@Michael - Welcome to the calm :) sure is a better feeling than the manic destructive comments elsewhere.@Kevin - I'm sorry but reading posts, blogs or resources does not make you an Active member of the community - any more than sitting at home reading the newspaper would make you an active part of your local community, so I think Apparatus has a point.
Rather than complain and bitch about things though should you not be asking what you could be giving and doing yourself to improve the community? That's after all how great communities are built, a website is merely a tool at the end of the day.
#13
How many posted to say thank you, great work, or anything else to show their appreciation. There were 38 comments. When GG released TGEA 1.8 - 36 comments, or annouced Torque3D - 36 comments.
That's a tiny total of 110 comments for three really fantastic annoucements for the community and I'd bet money it was the same sets of names each time.
Compare that to 183 comments when there are problems with the new site (and that's just the main site release blog not counting all these spin-off blogs) and 356 comments when they discussed pricing options for Torque3d and fact that it'll cost more.
I think I'd be pretty downhearted if I were GG right now...
So I'd ask everyone - if you want to shout when things go bad should you not give praise when things go good? Does it not work both ways?
01/15/2009 (4:14 pm)
damn can't edit, didn't mean to post that. What strikes me most is when Deborah posted to announce the new site and some great new things like:Quote:
* Featured blogs, so we can show off the best projects on our site
* Recommended products so you know which 3rd party products work with all the different flavors of Torque
* Revamped search capabilities for the entire site
* Much simpler, more concise site navigation
How many posted to say thank you, great work, or anything else to show their appreciation. There were 38 comments. When GG released TGEA 1.8 - 36 comments, or annouced Torque3D - 36 comments.
That's a tiny total of 110 comments for three really fantastic annoucements for the community and I'd bet money it was the same sets of names each time.
Compare that to 183 comments when there are problems with the new site (and that's just the main site release blog not counting all these spin-off blogs) and 356 comments when they discussed pricing options for Torque3d and fact that it'll cost more.
I think I'd be pretty downhearted if I were GG right now...
So I'd ask everyone - if you want to shout when things go bad should you not give praise when things go good? Does it not work both ways?
#14
Actually, I have considered what I could do to improve the community; there are things I think I could contribute. But the fact remains, I do not have the time or resources to dedicate to game development right now. The most I can do is participate in the Torque community, however behind the scenes as that may be. Maybe that doesn't meet your definition of "active" but that's how it is. And I definitely take exception with the implication that unless I meet a certain definition of "active" I should shut the hell up. =P
Regarding the disparity in posts... Hell, that's just human nature. People don't pray when the sun is shining, they pray after the tornado has ripped through their trailer park. =D
01/15/2009 (4:44 pm)
@Andy: Thank you preacher Andy! =PActually, I have considered what I could do to improve the community; there are things I think I could contribute. But the fact remains, I do not have the time or resources to dedicate to game development right now. The most I can do is participate in the Torque community, however behind the scenes as that may be. Maybe that doesn't meet your definition of "active" but that's how it is. And I definitely take exception with the implication that unless I meet a certain definition of "active" I should shut the hell up. =P
Regarding the disparity in posts... Hell, that's just human nature. People don't pray when the sun is shining, they pray after the tornado has ripped through their trailer park. =D
#15
It is indeed human nature to shout when the sun doesn't shine but it appears that some (I don't mean yourself) are crawling out of the woodwork with tales of Woe and doom, melodramtic posts just to be joining in with the mobs - doesn't really help any of us.
I always feel a little thanks goes a long way... just my mileage.
01/15/2009 (5:15 pm)
@Kevin - lol first time I've been called preacher ;-) nothing wrong with being behind the scenes and just enjoying to read, we all have our own ways and uses for the site and I don't think you can ever please everyone.It is indeed human nature to shout when the sun doesn't shine but it appears that some (I don't mean yourself) are crawling out of the woodwork with tales of Woe and doom, melodramtic posts just to be joining in with the mobs - doesn't really help any of us.
I always feel a little thanks goes a long way... just my mileage.
#16
01/15/2009 (5:22 pm)
Man, its not just Garage Games. Its not just a company. Its my hopes and dreams. 
Torque Owner Nathan Allen
Default Studio Name
But the big problem that could crash or cripple the GG community is the pricing. I have been thinking about this and if they were to requires a $400 upgrade price for Torque 3d, I would no longer consider their product worth it. I am working on an indie game and I love the GG products, but not all indie game makers can afford high upgrade prices. Its going to cost me $550 alone just to buy CS4.
But I do agree that if you destroy the community inadvertently or otherwise by creating a place that makes it much harder to get support, you will have problems and lose all customers including current and future indie developers.