Community Is Precious and Fragile
by Jeff Tunnell · 01/14/2009 (3:55 pm) · 26 comments
Yesterday morning I got home from a recording session with my band, the Procrastinators, at 2:30AM. I was buzzing, so I checked my computer to see what was new, and at the top of the list was the new GarageGames site redesign. My link to GG automatically goes to the community dashboard where I was greeted by the new design. I kind of panicked and started clicking around to see where the familiar community tools that you are all discussing went. I could not find them, and hastily posted a comment in Jacob's blog about being disappointed, which I was at the time. In retrospect, I should not have posted that comment.
Since that time I have talked to Josh Williams and Brett Seylor as well as read all of the comments and forum posts. To be clear, I have no particular influence, but all of the top level people at GG are passionate about getting great community features back online in the new site.
There are some parts of the new site that I really love, like the simple blog layout that makes pics stand out. I look forward to seeing the new site evolve and bring back all your favorite community features.
But, the main point of this blog is that things change all the time. This community has gone through many different iterations over the years. We have all met friends and co-workers, benefited from our experiences here at the GG community, and applied that to our lives. Many people have moved on, or graduated, if you will. Justin Mette, Dave Myers, most of the Maxgaming guys, myself and my partners, and many, many more used to post nearly every day (Ben Garney, one of the PBL partners had nearly 10,000 posts in the GG forums), but one rarely hears from any of these people as they are running their successful companies, many still based on Torque technologies.
All of this has taken place over the course of eight years. I am sure the community can handle a week or two to fix some of the community features. Hang in there.
-Jeff Tunnell, Co-Founder GarageGames
Push Button Labs
Since that time I have talked to Josh Williams and Brett Seylor as well as read all of the comments and forum posts. To be clear, I have no particular influence, but all of the top level people at GG are passionate about getting great community features back online in the new site.
There are some parts of the new site that I really love, like the simple blog layout that makes pics stand out. I look forward to seeing the new site evolve and bring back all your favorite community features.
But, the main point of this blog is that things change all the time. This community has gone through many different iterations over the years. We have all met friends and co-workers, benefited from our experiences here at the GG community, and applied that to our lives. Many people have moved on, or graduated, if you will. Justin Mette, Dave Myers, most of the Maxgaming guys, myself and my partners, and many, many more used to post nearly every day (Ben Garney, one of the PBL partners had nearly 10,000 posts in the GG forums), but one rarely hears from any of these people as they are running their successful companies, many still based on Torque technologies.
All of this has taken place over the course of eight years. I am sure the community can handle a week or two to fix some of the community features. Hang in there.
-Jeff Tunnell, Co-Founder GarageGames
Push Button Labs
About the author
#2
I enjoy the new look it's fresh
and no one says they can't add things
as they go.
Hell that's how people make games sometimes.
But a new website doesn't give GG the license to
start false advertising engine specifications.
I'm just waiting for some new customer to purchase
TGB or TGEA based on the new specifications on the website.
Linux Support, Depth of View post processing, 3rd Party Physics
SDK support, and SSAO.
And when they find out that stuff isn't in and they raise holy hell.
It's not going to look good for GG.
01/14/2009 (4:21 pm)
The website doesn't bother me.I enjoy the new look it's fresh
and no one says they can't add things
as they go.
Hell that's how people make games sometimes.
But a new website doesn't give GG the license to
start false advertising engine specifications.
I'm just waiting for some new customer to purchase
TGB or TGEA based on the new specifications on the website.
Linux Support, Depth of View post processing, 3rd Party Physics
SDK support, and SSAO.
And when they find out that stuff isn't in and they raise holy hell.
It's not going to look good for GG.
#3
01/14/2009 (4:49 pm)
To be honest, I didn't spend much time looking at the sales side of the site. My comments are about the community, which, to me, have always been the most interesting part of GarageGames. 
#4
01/14/2009 (5:03 pm)
Everything new has teething trouble. But it's not Jurrasic Park, websites don't hunt in packs! ;) 
#5
01/14/2009 (5:08 pm)
@Jeremy: Updates made to the TGEA page...hopefully to your satisfaction. 
#6
01/14/2009 (5:12 pm)
I personally love the new design!
#7
Maybe, maybe not. But you were right.
There's a lot to like about the new site. The new design has promise, and as they continue to work with it, I am sure we'll see more improvements. Hopefully one of the first will be to tone down the white, as I'm getting eyestrain and headache from being on the site off and on today. ;)
But I digress. You know, I was looking at the "TGEA won the award!" blog post a short bit ago. Of course, TGEA didn't win that award - the thousands of community members who voted for TGEA won that award. We know that. GG should know that.
The GarageGames community won that award, together - developers who made the engine happen, and license holders who voted, many of them not even TGEA license holders, simply because they believed in GG.
I look at that blog, and then at this mess a week later, and it seems to me like the message was missed, somehow. GarageGames won a huge victory with that vote - massive PR. And GG would never have won that award without the strong, supportive community base they have. And yet when it came to building their new site, the things that were left out of the first draft were all things most crucial to having a community based site.
I was hoping for a move in the other direction! I was expecting the ability to personalize the GG "community" link, something like a "MyGG" page, with widgets that let you put all the things you most liked to read and be updated about right on the same page. I was expecting expanded community functionality, better ease of use, better tools for talking to one another and spreading information and getting to know other devs and find new team members, and - you get the idea!
Instead, not only did the community features not see any improvement, most of them were hacked out. And of the few left in, most of them are broken, messed up, buggy, missing functions, or otherwise a mess.
No, Jeff. With all respect, you were NOT out of line, you were NOT wrong. I hope GG will see how upset this has made their community, recognize it, and take appropriate action. But I think the damage they have done by showing that the community is no longer their priority is deep, and will take a long while to repair.
01/14/2009 (5:41 pm)
Quote:In retrospect, I should not have posted that comment.
Maybe, maybe not. But you were right.
There's a lot to like about the new site. The new design has promise, and as they continue to work with it, I am sure we'll see more improvements. Hopefully one of the first will be to tone down the white, as I'm getting eyestrain and headache from being on the site off and on today. ;)
But I digress. You know, I was looking at the "TGEA won the award!" blog post a short bit ago. Of course, TGEA didn't win that award - the thousands of community members who voted for TGEA won that award. We know that. GG should know that.
The GarageGames community won that award, together - developers who made the engine happen, and license holders who voted, many of them not even TGEA license holders, simply because they believed in GG.
I look at that blog, and then at this mess a week later, and it seems to me like the message was missed, somehow. GarageGames won a huge victory with that vote - massive PR. And GG would never have won that award without the strong, supportive community base they have. And yet when it came to building their new site, the things that were left out of the first draft were all things most crucial to having a community based site.
I was hoping for a move in the other direction! I was expecting the ability to personalize the GG "community" link, something like a "MyGG" page, with widgets that let you put all the things you most liked to read and be updated about right on the same page. I was expecting expanded community functionality, better ease of use, better tools for talking to one another and spreading information and getting to know other devs and find new team members, and - you get the idea!
Instead, not only did the community features not see any improvement, most of them were hacked out. And of the few left in, most of them are broken, messed up, buggy, missing functions, or otherwise a mess.
No, Jeff. With all respect, you were NOT out of line, you were NOT wrong. I hope GG will see how upset this has made their community, recognize it, and take appropriate action. But I think the damage they have done by showing that the community is no longer their priority is deep, and will take a long while to repair.
#8
But I've gotta say... I've been a Torque owner since 2004 and seen the site change quite a bit since then. In each case, there were clear improvements and I felt like the site was becoming better overall.
In the case of this latest update, I can unequivocally say: The site has not improved; it has been downgraded in almost every way.
So no, Jeff... I think your initial assessment was spot-on accurate. And while the GG staff may be working hard to remedy the situation, the fact remains that it should have been put through a heavy beta with full community input rather than being foisted upon us in this manner.
01/14/2009 (6:22 pm)
Always cool to hear from you, Jeff!But I've gotta say... I've been a Torque owner since 2004 and seen the site change quite a bit since then. In each case, there were clear improvements and I felt like the site was becoming better overall.
In the case of this latest update, I can unequivocally say: The site has not improved; it has been downgraded in almost every way.
So no, Jeff... I think your initial assessment was spot-on accurate. And while the GG staff may be working hard to remedy the situation, the fact remains that it should have been put through a heavy beta with full community input rather than being foisted upon us in this manner.
#9
01/14/2009 (8:04 pm)
I have to agree. The new site looks unprofessional and is not as user friendly. 
#10
01/14/2009 (9:15 pm)
Quote:You should still have some influence. ;)
To be clear, I have no particular influence
#11
The new site layout is nice. But old resource links are broken, we can't edit our posts once they are made and the resource download links are missing...
01/14/2009 (10:07 pm)
Jeff, one thing is for sure... Whether or not the new site design is an improvement, I think a bit more testing should have been done before the roll out. The new site layout is nice. But old resource links are broken, we can't edit our posts once they are made and the resource download links are missing...
#12
ask yourself-
how many loyal customers are you pissing off because they know you're not being truthful to other potential customers, and thus showing your willingness to lie to the ones you already have?
I don't have a problem with making a buck, but not at the expense of reputation or honor. Plain and simple there is no excuse for the false hoods to make a sale by combining features with fast talk, about what is possible and what is implemented, especially without the slightest warning that other programs- tgb, torqex, torque360,or for wii or for iphone - would need to be an addition purchase... or that some of the features listed are actually 3rd party software, or are commented out code , that while included is non functional....
because I own TGEA and a few other products I've purchased from GG and I know I didn't receive any of those features from GG...
I'd love to have real physics and ambient occlusion, and be able to put my games on any platform without making a separate purchase...
I've been around here for about a year and a half here, and never felt like this about supporting GG... If you look at my purchase history you'll notice that it's been pretty regular ..buy something every month or two.... don't know if that will continue
depends on how GG takes the feedback
01/14/2009 (10:45 pm)
and at the very least there is definite mis-representation on the product page of TGEA.... that is causing a loss of trust if nothing else..ask yourself-
how many loyal customers are you pissing off because they know you're not being truthful to other potential customers, and thus showing your willingness to lie to the ones you already have?
I don't have a problem with making a buck, but not at the expense of reputation or honor. Plain and simple there is no excuse for the false hoods to make a sale by combining features with fast talk, about what is possible and what is implemented, especially without the slightest warning that other programs- tgb, torqex, torque360,or for wii or for iphone - would need to be an addition purchase... or that some of the features listed are actually 3rd party software, or are commented out code , that while included is non functional....
because I own TGEA and a few other products I've purchased from GG and I know I didn't receive any of those features from GG...
I'd love to have real physics and ambient occlusion, and be able to put my games on any platform without making a separate purchase...
I've been around here for about a year and a half here, and never felt like this about supporting GG... If you look at my purchase history you'll notice that it's been pretty regular ..buy something every month or two.... don't know if that will continue
depends on how GG takes the feedback
#13
I agree that everything needs change and that it takes time for everyone to adapt...features In the site I know should improve...I can handle that...
sorry if it seemed that it was aimed at any individual....
01/14/2009 (10:49 pm)
o btw this is not aimed at you Jeff... I was just ranting about the marketing on the new site....and whoever made it...and I hope you have some influence to get them to read it...I agree that everything needs change and that it takes time for everyone to adapt...features In the site I know should improve...I can handle that...
sorry if it seemed that it was aimed at any individual....
#14
I'm not used to comment to much on how bad / good are things; but it really looks like that the new website will have need a lot of more testing.
Since the beginning I'm following GG with a lot of enthusiasm, but this new 'reshaping' of the website is very frustrating as i feel to have lost more than what i have gained through this new changes.
01/15/2009 (1:01 am)
Jeff, thanks for your post indeed.I'm not used to comment to much on how bad / good are things; but it really looks like that the new website will have need a lot of more testing.
Since the beginning I'm following GG with a lot of enthusiasm, but this new 'reshaping' of the website is very frustrating as i feel to have lost more than what i have gained through this new changes.
#15
01/15/2009 (2:27 am)
I don't think there was anything wrong with your comments you made. You echoed dozens of other peoples concerns. My hope is that GG takes the criticism whether it be about their products or their website so that they can improve and thus make for some happy customers.
#16
And even if they bring everything back and add "community features" over time, a very bitter smack remains, at least for me.
01/15/2009 (2:35 am)
@Kevin McLaughlin: that's exactly what I'm thinking! Jeff WAS right with his disappointment in the first place... I too was expecting MUCH MORE community features as before (maybe a bit like www.greatgamesexperiment.com - btw., is that site even supported / used by GG any more?) and I expected it to be THE top priority of the new site - and really, really NOT something "that can probably fixed sometime after the launch" - looks like all those missing features were left out intentionally and have to be rushed back in now in a hurry ... I don't see any reason to unleash the new site in its current state.And even if they bring everything back and add "community features" over time, a very bitter smack remains, at least for me.
#17
I can appreciate change and understand that it needs to happen to keep things fresh... perhaps a more gradual approach would have been better so as to not shock the old vets (like me) :oD
01/15/2009 (7:01 am)
Hey Jeff, I've read many of your posts and also your articles at MiBiG. Needless to say, I respect your opinion. Do you know of any time lines on when some of these tools will become available again? Is GG going to continue to publish other than on IA?I can appreciate change and understand that it needs to happen to keep things fresh... perhaps a more gradual approach would have been better so as to not shock the old vets (like me) :oD
#18
I wonder if there's going to be any sort of management level reflection or "failure analysis" with respect to how the change has been received by the customer base.
The new website is basically functional and represents a huge investment in time and energy, and that's worthy of praise. And it's different, which provokes a naturally negative reaction to change. But it seems to me that the lack of community critical features says something. It points either to some problem with the overall management of the web design process OR (intended or not) indicates GG's priorities with respect to the community's needs.
My hope is that GG doesn't take the attitude that the community is made up of a bunch of whiners who are just reacting to aesthetic changes. While I'm sure there are people who complain just to complain, it would be a mistake for any business to assume that that is the majority of its customers-- because in doing so, they develop an attitude that hardens them to their own mistakes.
The question of "What did we do wrong and why did this happen?" should be on someone's mind so that such a jarring rollout doesn't happen again. At the very least, it will demonstrate that SOMEONE in management cares about the opinions of the community.
01/15/2009 (7:39 am)
I appreciated the honesty of your response, even if, as you say, it was a bit hasty and you've had time to reconsider.I wonder if there's going to be any sort of management level reflection or "failure analysis" with respect to how the change has been received by the customer base.
The new website is basically functional and represents a huge investment in time and energy, and that's worthy of praise. And it's different, which provokes a naturally negative reaction to change. But it seems to me that the lack of community critical features says something. It points either to some problem with the overall management of the web design process OR (intended or not) indicates GG's priorities with respect to the community's needs.
My hope is that GG doesn't take the attitude that the community is made up of a bunch of whiners who are just reacting to aesthetic changes. While I'm sure there are people who complain just to complain, it would be a mistake for any business to assume that that is the majority of its customers-- because in doing so, they develop an attitude that hardens them to their own mistakes.
The question of "What did we do wrong and why did this happen?" should be on someone's mind so that such a jarring rollout doesn't happen again. At the very least, it will demonstrate that SOMEONE in management cares about the opinions of the community.
#19
Sounds like they really underestimate what's going on currently with the community - so I hope they *really* mean what they say and *really* care for their user base. *crosses fingers*
01/15/2009 (8:47 am)
Quote:The question of "What did we do wrong and why did this happen?" should be on someone's mind so that such a jarring rollout doesn't happen again. At the very least, it will demonstrate that SOMEONE in management cares about the opinions of the community.That's a good point... I am not too sure that this is the case - all I've read from GG employees so far sounds like: "we had a successful launch, everything went as planned and now we have to fix some bugs and add some missing features" - I'm not sure if GG currently realizes how bad they hit their community with this relaunch and the last couple of blogs concerning the new direction, planned change of price structure etc.
Sounds like they really underestimate what's going on currently with the community - so I hope they *really* mean what they say and *really* care for their user base. *crosses fingers*
#20
Well they did. I may not like it at this point, but maybe I’ll get the hang of it soon. I’ll give them time. A day or two. ; )
Randy
01/15/2009 (9:45 am)
My first impression is what happened here. This is bad. But I have to realize this is a major change to the system. We have to give them time to sort things out. After all, I was one of those who thought that if the company that expects to get my money by running a web based system (IA) they had better upgrade their GG site with all it’s shortcomings to be more professional.Well they did. I may not like it at this point, but maybe I’ll get the hang of it soon. I’ll give them time. A day or two. ; )
Randy
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