Game Development Community

dev|Pro Game Development Curriculum

Torque 3D Sidebar - Pricing and Licensing

by Brett Seyler · 01/09/2009 (6:57 am) · 369 comments

static.garagegames.com/static/pg/blogs/jason-hetu/Torque-3D_Development-Blog-Header.png
68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/buffett-rounded-bordered.pngThis is probably the most candid blog post I'll write all year. It's also likely to be quite long. I'm aiming here to communicate a lot of things and I'm hoping they come out in nice fluid arc, but we'll see. It's supposed to be about GG and you, but we might take some twists and turns getting there. I should also warn anyone who's willing to read through this that there are no clear answers in this blog, just thoughts and questions.

While I'm sitting here starting to write this, I'm thinking about how much I like reading Warren Buffett's shareholder letters. I'm certainly not alone in admiring his frank, honest, pull-no-punches style. Buffett's customers are his shareholders, but I notice that very few companies write to their customers this way. What would it be like if they did?

I'm certainly not arrogant enough to draw any kind of comparison between me and the Sage of Omaha, but I really going to try to follow his example in candor and clear communication about business goals.

Most of you probably don't know that I did finance and investment work before joining GG. Though I've always been into games and technology my whole life, it's still a a very weird kind of transition to make from that button up world to the laid back, but hyper-competitve world of a startup software company. Obviously, GG is much more fun, but it's almost demanding in a lot of the same ways finance was for me. You might be surprised how much business is just business, and finding ways to succeed and get more done is universal across those kind of boundaries.

There are a bunch of subjects I'll likely wander around in this post, but the one that bears this post's title is the focus...

RUH-ROH! I can hear the alarm bells going off..."GG is raising prices! I knew it!!!!!!!!!!"

I'll just tear the Band-aid away quickly then. Torque 3D will have a higher price tag than GG'ers are used to from Torque. How much higher? I'm not sure yet to be honest...I've given it a lot of thought, but in the past few months, when I've looked to you guys for feedback, it's always been helpful and understanding, so I figured I'd push my luck and do it again =)

Here are the core principles for GG and Torque that I'm trying to stay true to in working this out:


(1) Make sure that Torque licensing is a sustainable business that allows for signicant reinvestment in the technology--enough to keep Torque at the forefront of modern game engines.


(2) Eat our own dog food. This means we use what we sell, reinforcing the need to reinvest in the technology.


(3) Leverage modern distribution options. This means web publishing, downloadable channels, and any other efforts that upset that status quo in publishing and put more money and control in the developer's hands.


(4) Remain an affordable option for the little guy.



Obviously there's a balance to be struck attempting to serve both (1) and (4). However, there may be less conflict than you'd think. For example, let me talk about (1) a little bit.

Why I'm not worried about Epic or AAA

We made a decision with Torque a long time ago not to compete head to head the top competition in the AAA space. That competitions has emerged in the past decade to be Epic's Unreal engine, first and foremost. While Torque can do a LOT of what Unreal can do, we're executing on a much different business model and strategy...part of it is idealistic, part's pragmatic.

68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/markrein-rounded-bordered.pngThe Unreal engine is driven by the needs of Epic's studio to deliver every year, without fail, on a game with the highest visual impact possible. They succeed, more or less, in doing this with Unreal Tournament and Gears of War. These huge budget AAA games subsidize the enormous cost of developing technology that keeps the games looking better than anything else. By extension, the Unreal engine is percieved as being the best technology at any given time. (Seem like circular logic? Keep reading.)

Sure...there are disturbances in the force. Upstarts like Crytek or Gamebryo steal the limelight now and then, but let's be realistic, Unreal dominates AAA engine licensing. When I say AAA, I mean licensing for use in big budget AAA titles. If you're building a $10-$30M game, you're looking at Unreal first. It inspires confidence in your publisher (guaranteeing more money) and it says to the media and press that "this game is going to achieve a certain visual quality bar that you expect from games made with Unreal." This last part in particular is crucial to the hype-train that gets gamers to pay $60 for a game on release day.

Sound like any other industry you can think of? Come...let's all share in the let down and pretend we didn't just get screwed.

I'd be lying if I said I didn't admire Epic's success in both engine licensing and game development. They've figured out how the game is played and beat everyone under the current ruleset. My hat's off to them. But a lot of this blockbuster-game-driven perception about engines is crap IMO. The dirty little secret in AAA games is that great art, far more than tech, creates visual quality. Even so, "UE = visual superiority => best engine" is the common thinking in the games industry and no one--NO ONE--has been able to break Epic's stranglehold on this section of the middleware market for the better part of decade.

How would you change things if it were your desire to do so?

There are two paths that I see...

You can try to beat Epic at their own game. To do this you'd need a premiere game studio with huge budgets to consistently impress on developers and the press that Unreal is no longer the best performing engine tech around. This means truly high end tech and *really* high end artists that can push the technology's boundaries.

Crytek appears to be trying to execute on this strategy, and they've had some success. id, while a major innovator in game dev technology, appears only casually interested in upsetting the state of Epic's AAA middleware domination. Gamebryo has some good tech and a good marketing / sales team, but no dedicated studio to consistently test the tech and then demonstrate where they stack up next to Unreal or other AAA competitors, so I think they're doomed to fail in AAA. Valve plays a role similar to id. They appear to only casually pursuing licensing of their Source engine.

So that's it... Crytek is the only reasonable candidate to unseat Epic as the AAA engine licensing champion. Why don't I think that will happen? In order to do it, Crytek needs to do it year after year for a sustained period of time, and that demands a lot of money. Epic's makes financially successful games that subsidize the costs of developing their tech. Crytek, to date, has not.

Even for hardcore gamers and the press, it's not just about the good looks, it's also about being on the right platforms, being able to tell a good story in-game. Developers have to find the right gameplay hooks to make a game rewarding. As visually impressive as Crysis is (far more than any UE3 game IMO), the game lacked what was needed to achieve maintream (and financial) success. Minimum hardware requirements that were totally off the charts on the game's release didn't help much either.


68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/aaa-well-served.png

Does it make sense for GarageGames to try to go to head-to-head with Epic in the same fashion? Well, maybe we'd consider it if the AAA engine licensing space were a growth market or currently underserved, but it's neither. AAA engine licensing has been a fairly stagnant market for years now and Epic'c never conceded more than about 50% of the available revenue, so I don't know about you, but doing bloody battle for a slice of a pie that isn't growing seems kind silly to me.

So, if not head-to-head with Epic, where does Torque fit? What's the angle? Well, our goal is not really to "beat" Epic, it's to change the game (in the "meta" sense of the word). We think it's dumb that games cost $60 and that the best selling games published by the biggest publishers all essentially answer to Walmart.


Games should be cheaper.

Gamers should have more variety.

Developers should feel comfortable taking more risks.



None of these are possible without upsetting the status quo. This is why we created Torque and put a $100 no royalties price tag on it in 2001. This is why we created InstantAction.com so that we could build our own audience and connect gamers to developers with no interference from publishers or retailers. Both efforts serve the same goal of making it easier (and more affordable) for developers to take risks.

Torque exists to provide developers (starting with our own game studio) with the means to take these kinds of risks, to create games that can achieve AAA-level visual quality, but with a focus on what makes games fun. We want our studio and you to innovate in ways that matter most to gamers. Portal didn't need next-gen visuals or a multi-million dollare engine to win over gamers. It could have easily been built with Torque. Just the same, Marble Blast Ultra didn't need super-high end rendering. To make the point even clearer, look at Phil Hassey's Galcon. Phil built this game in Python all by himself and it's currently one of the most played games on InstantAction.


68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/portal-bordered.png

We think this evolution, bridging the divide between developers and gamers, enabling greater risk taking at lower cost, is where the industry must go. The faster it gets there, the more Torque makes sense to a wider audience of game developers. As a company, we've always aimed to support platforms and technologies that make this happen faster. I put Steam, WiiWare, XBLA, PSN, id's Quakelive and InstantAction.com all on that list. In fact, without Steam, I doubt Valve could comfortably afford to take the kind or risks they do. We'd all, as gamers and game developers, be much worse off without if they hadn't bucked the system and created the most effective digital distribution platform on the planet. (Go Valve!)

Let's think again about the balance between enabling the little guy, and being in a position to reinvest in Torque and sustain this effort to encourage risk taking in games. Who do we mean by the little guy? Does a hobbyist who never publishes anything serve these goals? Probably not...let's talk about that...

We're building Torque to enable a particular set of developers: those who can persevere though the challenge of game development. This means outfits like Fro Games, Stickman Studios, Sickhead Games, and Tilted Mill to cite some recent examples. In the recent Game Developer profile on TGEA for the Front Line awards, I think they hit the nail on the head.


68.233.5.139/~transfer/Pics/Frontline_Banner.jpg
68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/andy-frontline.png


Are you one of these developers? A lot of you might not know yet. Some of you may not know whether you even want to push that hard or take that much time. You might be happy with game development as a curiousity and have no interest in ever publishing your work. This does not mean Torque is not for you.

Just as Photoshop, Flash, Max and Maya are built for professional use with professional licensees in mind, so is Torque. And just as plenty of amateurs and hobbyists use Adobe and Autodesk tools with no intention of making their work public, so will amateur and hobbyist Torque users. Still, often times, these tools make professionals of people who didn't know if they had what it in them, and we hope Torque does the same.

If we want Torque to effectively serve professionals and that set of developers who have the fortitude and talent to give it a real shot, we need to re-evaluate Torque's license fee. We can't do this effectively for $150 / seat, at least not with Torque 3D. Torque has thousands and thousands of licensees, but developing engine technology is very complicated and very expensive--certainly more complicated and expensive than developing games.

Attaching a $150 / seat price Torque has created a quality perception that does not do justice to Torque's capabilities. GarageGames could *easily* spin out a new business under a different banner and sell TGEA / Torque 3D right next to all the other major AAA engines for hundreds of thousands of dollars per title. Why don't we? Because it doesn't help us with (3) or (4). We'd be quickly assimilated into the tiny space left over by Epic and fighting tooth and nail with everyone else for 3-4 licensing tile deals per year. It wouldn't help us with games. It would disrupt the broken industry model. It wouldn't do much of anything good for games or gamers.

So what price makes sense? What's commensurate with the value Torque provides? Again, I don't know the answer to this yet. It's not $150 / seat and it's not $295 / seat. Perhaps it's $1000. Perhaps it's more. I look at products like Flash ($699) or 3ds Max ($3495) / Maya ($4995) and compare them with Torque. Torque is more complex from an engineering perspective and Torque is in a smaller, more niche market. Both of these factors would argue for a higher price. What about (4)? What's affordable for the little guy? What's going to be the right price that makes it acceptable for developers who ship product to feel comfortable taking risks with a good chance of success? Hard questions to answer.


68.233.5.139/~transfer/brett/pricing.png

I've also noticed that Unity, which appears to be competing more with Flash than game engines, is priced many multiples higher than Torque and yet, it's attracted a license base of primarily hobbyists and amateur developers. Even though Unity now offers a lower priced "Indie" version of its tool that deprecates major features and significant license freedom, for a long time you couldn't buy Unity for less than $1000 / seat. How does that compare with Torque (a much more capable and mature engine technology that actually provides source code)?

There's another consideration that's really important to me, and that's all you reading this. Many of you have been loyal GG customers and Torque users for a long time...in some cases much longer than I've been here myself. You've become accustomed to Torque's low price. Even if it costs GG money in the short term, I don't want to see this community lose is vibrance or engagement because Torque's no longer an affordable technology to stay current with.

While I haven't figured out how it will work yet, I have decided that when Torque 3D is ready for relase, we'll offer it with an option that makes it much more affordable for TGEA owners to make the move. New licensees who don't already own TGEA at that point will pay full price, whatever that ends up being. I should also note that TGEA 1.8 will probably remain an affordable option at the low end throughout 2009, but if we can, we'll provide a better, affordable substitute with Torque 3D...perhaps with some sort of meaningful feature or license delta. This might mean that Indie vs. Commercial changes, or goes away as well.

My ideal outcome is that in mid-2009, everyone who wants to continue working with Torque in the future will be using Torque 3D and sharing resources and knowledge with the rest of the community. This product is the largest investment we've ever made in engine tech and our expectations are high, but better I think to disclose our thoughts and intentions on things like this sooner rather than later. I'm very confident that for those of you who are really engaged in making games, upgrading to Torque 3D will be an easy choice well justified by the value it adds to your talent and dedication.

More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #5.

Torque 3D development blogs:



About the author

Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.

Page «Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Last »
#1
01/09/2009 (7:17 am)
I wouldn't mind a $1000 price tag. But then I also would expect more quality in terms of the QA being done and a more stable build than 1.8 was, and still is. It has been incredibly frustrating porting over when some issues exist, especially so in the editor which is important to anyone and everyone making a game with Torque.

Question: How will the license in old TGEA change? Will it stay the same? I'm no lawyer, so this is a gray field for me.
#2
01/09/2009 (7:51 am)
Short reply at the moment (I'll probably respond in more detail later as I'm in a bit of a rush at the mo) but have royalties etc been considered alongside a set fee?

I mean regardless of whether you publish the games or not. Currently this isn't feasible in a business sense due to "dreamers" etc - however if you're changing your focus to the people/groups with "potential" than it could work. Maybe a tiered approach?

Reasoning is simple: it removes some risk for developers. Which is what you want alongside a decent business model for yourselves right? Affordable innovation.
#3
01/09/2009 (7:55 am)
Kinda difficult to make such a blog post, though you did so very well. Personally, I've wondered for some time how GG has stayed afloat charging what they do, so an increase in price for 3D sounds fair and appropriate. Having said that, raising prices to meet specific goals is one thing.. but raising prices like some of the other engines/software out there do for no reason other than "they can" is not.
You've raised interesting points, and I am looking forward to seeing progress made on the final product as well as the structure that is decided upon concerning pricing in general, and any potential inclusionary moves GG may make directed towards the current owner's. I guess the answer is we will have to wait and see. GG in my opinion is great bunch of people, so I wish you all luck in figuring all this out.

~LK~
#4
01/09/2009 (7:56 am)
I'm a firm believer in "You get what you pay for". As Torque technology grows and becomes increasingly more powerful and impressive, it's to be expected that the price will increase. It's also to be expected that as the price increases so will the support and documentation. If these two things increase along with the price, I have no problem at all with a "substantial" increase in price.

It's a "no brainer" for most people. For a company to remain successful, no matter how passionate people are about the product, if your not making the money needed to cover costs and be profitable, that product won't be around very long. I look forward to the Torque 3d release, and will start saving for the upgrade immediatley, all I ask, give me a little advance notice on the "final" price. :)
#5
01/09/2009 (8:17 am)
I fall into the category of someone who may never publish a game, but who uses the engine on a daily basis
and am very happy with the progress Ive seen with the TGEA. But I do ride on my own hopes and dreams that
some day my creation will be fun for more people than myself.

I have grown a lot as GG has, and I have understood your changing needs.
I started with TGE, and playing with the engine I think 5 years ago now.
It has taught me so much about game design. Lesson I wouldnt have learned anywhere else!

It would be a shame, if someone could not afford to have the same experience that I have had....Because people grow in their abilities.

Im the type that likes to build and play with all the neat new features that you keep adding to it.
I personally can afford a higher price because I am a grown man who works full time, and TGEA
is what I do in all my little spare times and weekends whenever possible.
Similar to someone who may build model ships.

What every price it becomes, I understand the need to keep pushing your business model.
I would only say not to make it so far out of reach that the common single kid cant also grab on to
and learn and create and have fun like I have and am doing.

Its about Fun and Learning and growing. Its the overall experience!

Im excited for GG that this future is here Now!
#6
01/09/2009 (8:20 am)
I am heavily invested in Torque and hope to use it for many years to come, and have a certain reliance on GG to keep it current and increasing in awesomeness over time.

When I look at and ultimately buy software at premium prices it's because it's going to enable me to do something that I can't do with what I already own or let me get down to business faster with better results.

In game engines in particular, it's going to be the wholeness of the featureset plus a couple candy items that would sell it for me.

Take a perfectly working TGEA 1.8 (or one that has a much smaller known-issue list) and add onscreen material definitions, physics, a more full-featured world editor that lets me attach behaviors and scripts to scene objects with the ease of TGB, add in a reliable and comfortable optimization and speed-up session so that everyone knows it has been optimized for loading and performance speeds for particular game types. That's worth $1000, even if I have to save up for it. If it's got an example game or two it's a definite.

This will increase the potential and existing customer confidence that someone smart has addressed problems and taken some of the grunt and creative MAGIC work out of optimizations that need to be done 'out of the box', and make me feel like my team can begin designing a game and begin operating with hats on (artists or coders as opposed to the often necessary ARTCODER we see now). It says 'we've looked at this and it's optimized where it needs to be for a wide audience'. There was a post recently about networking optimizations for game types that sounded like it was going to be promising for example, but the follow up was sorely lacking on details to be of any real value. We know you've got the brilliant people working on stuff... it would be awesome to know that for different systems, 'this is a solid approach that was considered and refined' versus an approach that simply works but isn't going to result in an optimized and fast process. There's not much of that apparent right now given the maturity of the codebase.

Open it up a little more flexibly in terms of add-ins/add-in licensing and you're fostering a more dedicated and professional community where the pressure for things to work well is higher, but so is the guaranteed quality. By this I mean that I think it's a great idea for a higher price tag as it makes essential addins also more viable to create... things like AFX would have a bigger budget, and we'd start to see more of this kind of amazing tool because it would be financially worthwhile to develop. As it stands it takes extreme dedication and belt tightening to make add-ins for Torque, and you're going to be extremely lucky to get your ROI back. This is because of the price of the engine mostly. It's hard to price an add-in higher than the engine itself, and its impossible to make a living from it this way.

Sometimes we see sparkles of greatness from people but the work gets dropped when they realize its purely a labor of love and the business metrics don't make as much sense anymore to continue working on the art/add-in/etc.

So, raising the price of the engine is far more important to the community than just an 'out of pocket' expense. It sets the bar higher for quality and partnership.
#7
01/09/2009 (8:20 am)
I agree with the comments here that a hike in price for T3D is acceptable as long as it is in reach but I hope the no royalties licence on T3D remains as it is, as this is one of best advantages over other engines for the Indie developer.
#8
01/09/2009 (8:22 am)
Gulp.........in all honesty, I think that's fair for TGEA or Torque3D (which will be released when....?). The one thing that I would expect is support. I have spent countless hours on little issues and concerns that should be in the documentation (which is getting better). I personally think that you guys should hire someone that will be able to answer questions right on the spot maybe using meebo or something? I know websites have instant chatting for the quick answer instead of making a post on the forum and hoping that someone might help you within a day, week or months later. And of course, what will happen to the current TGEA license holders?
#9
01/09/2009 (8:30 am)
Wow, that must have been a tough one to write Brett. I definitely see where you're coming from, from a business perspective. Sometimes, though, when you change something, you don't realize the good things that you are taking for granted right now. I totally understand the price increase. GG has long suffered from an unfair reputation being put on its technology quality simply due to its price point ("If it's $100 it can't be any good"). However, I don't think it can be denied that some very good things have come from the low price point. One of the best things about such a low investment costs is that it allows people the freedom to experiment, try things out, and fail a few times. I'm wondering if some of the people that have grown into contributing members of the GG community would even be here if the price point were up around $1000. Thinking of myself 5 years ago when I bought Torque, I don't think I would be here if it cost that much. I think your recent hire of Apparatus might be another example. Would he have even started tinkering with Torque if it were $1000? This community (and GG) might have never seen his awesome work. Would we gain others like him instead if the price point made Torque appear more "serious" to "serious" artists? Maybe.

Now, I really like GG. You guys are awesome, and I love the products you make. I owe a lot of what I can do now to the work everyone there has put in. So I don't want to see GG have to fold up in the market because its not sustainable - I get that. Perhaps there's another model here. What if Torque3D started to emulate some of the licensing options that 3DS Max and Maya offer (which you make comparisons to)? Perhaps Torque3D could offer a "student" or "educational" license that was very much affordable (around what is being charged right now), but with a much more restricted license? Basically, you can buy Torque3D for $100 or $300, but you can't publish anything with it. Play with it all you want: learn, code, experiment. Then, when you're ready to release something for commercial consumption, you need to upgrade yourself to the "commerical" version of the license, which is in the realm of $1000 a seat? This might provide you with a "best of both world" scenario where people are still free to learn with a low-risk barrier, but provide GG with a more sustainable income coming from the more "serious" developers.
#10
01/09/2009 (8:42 am)
I don't mind paying extra for a higher quality engine, of course it also depends on how much extra. $1000 is well within the price range of serious indie developers. It would probably be out of the price range of teenagers trying to convince their parents to license them a game engine, or poor college kids who are trying to get their foot in the door. If the feature set is right though, I have no problem in paying that amount.
#11
01/09/2009 (8:45 am)
@DALO
What would you consider a good price for support tickets? Per incident, per hour, etc? Support is extremely expensive and it would be interesting to hear your thoughts on various support structures and costs. That would most likely be a topic of discussion on the forums, however, and not in this blog. But we would definitely like to hear what you would expect in terms of support and how much you would expect to pay for it. Those are extremely valuable discussions.
#12
01/09/2009 (8:52 am)
There's a couple of things I hope you guys are considering:

A: People buy this engine at $150-300 that definitely wouldn't at $1000.

Basically, by hiking up the price, you risk losing licensees. If you lose any more than two-thirds of the people, you end up not making any more money, but losing out on people who could potentially give you guys a heads-up on obscure bugs (which saves you time/money, and makes the engine that much more stable).

B: If you're going to start charging $1000, I hope you realize expectations will be higher

Right now, a couple of issues, I can work with or work around. If I'm paying that much money for a "hobby item", it should work excellently. There's nothing stopping me from buying TNL, using Ogre 3d, using FMOD, and coming up with my own scripting system, if I don't have absolutely great documentation to help me understand the inner workings of the engine, as well as the way to start my game from the ground up in scripts, and finally, stability. There should be no issues with Vista 64-bit, for instance. Especially since if we make a game, that's what people are going to be installing it on in the next year. Either that or Windows 7 64-bit, but it's basically the same thing. RAM prices are extremely cheap... During Christmas, I saw 4GB of DDR2 ram for $12... so, 32-bit is officially dead, it's just too cheap to exceed the 4GB barrier now.



To be honest, I think you should work on defining a new tier for T3D. Maybe you could have a "hobbyist" license that's only $500 where you can use it for prototyping ideas, etc, but not make money on it. Then you can easily upgrade to $1000 whenever you decide you want to sell a real product with it, then you go to commercial license if it hits big. (heck, the commercial license could probably go for at least $10,000)

That way, you avoid losing as many people, and you maximize the amount of money you actually gain. It's a win-win situation.

Edit: I swear I didn't read Mark's post before I posted it... I guess we both had the same good idea ;)


Edit 2: I forgot to add... In today's economy, people are also cutting out things like luxury items... I'd probably place this in "luxury item" category for hobbyists or people not intending on making money, or people with a low amount of money to risk (beginning indies) ... so a $1000 price tag almost definitely will cut two-thirds of your licensees. That said I might still buy it (depends, though... I almost don't want to spend any more than $300 to upgrade) ... but it's a hard sell.
#13
01/09/2009 (9:07 am)
I think what is best Brett is to go down a route like Adobe has done with Photoshop.

A person can buy Photoshop Elements, a cheap ass, hobbyist version of the application that has most of the bells and whistles removed for about $75 (but it can still produce great art because its the artist driving the tool and not the tool itself that makes things great). Next up a person can buy Photoshop CS, this version contains all the major bells and whistles that made Photoshop famous for $700. Lastly there is Photoshop CS Extended for $1000, this version contains all the latest and greatest, up and coming features that only specialists would really want.

So with that said what I am saying is produce 3 versions of Torque 3D for the masses. A lite version for hobbyists that does just the real basics, it's not fancy but you can still make a great game with it if you posess the talent. A normal version that has pretty much everything someone would expect to have in a game engine. And a "pro" version that comes with some extra in-development goodies that aren't quite ready for public use yet, but your high end clients really need and want to have access to right now.
#14
01/09/2009 (9:08 am)
@DMB, well......obviously that's easier said than done, I realize that. I don't know how you guys would want to tackle that, it all depends on what type of support you would want to give. When I was in University working desk support we had a meebo chat tool built into the webpage so whenever someone from a lab had a quick question I would answer it then get back to working on other projects, but of course the U is a million times smaller from the global perspective. Perhaps you could offer a pay by monthly basis for support, whether it's personal emails, instant chat or phone? Maybe a yearly fee or a per instance ticket like you mentioned I don't know?. All I was saying was if the price goes up then there should be some form of support to go with it. It's just a thought........
#15
01/09/2009 (9:40 am)
Looking forward to Torque 3D very much so. Trying to please everyone is going to be tough, but I'm sure you guys have enough industry experience to decide on the best route; lots of valid points here, and I'd like to throw in mine. What about a tier system;

Indie - can develop your game, licence is low cost, you can publish it for free, but not charge for it.
Indie Pro - as above but you can publish it through GGs own publishing routes where GG get a cut, maybe a GG steam, or flavour of XBLA. Licence is 3-5 times more expensive than above.

Commercial - more expensive than Indie Pro - can develop your game, licence cost is higher, you can publish it anywhere and charge for it, but GG get a cut.
Commercial Pro - much more expensive, as above but GG does not get a cut.

All the above without losing any bells and whistles. To me this would cover all from the hobbiest, semi pro to commercial. Edit: maybe add in a school licence, or student licence to learn torque as these guys would be your future bread and butter, with no publishing options.
#16
01/09/2009 (9:42 am)
@Brett, I'll be real honest here. I've seen a lot of people I really love at GG leave in the past year or so. I am really worried that GG is changing its direction.

Jeff Tunnel had a price per seat vision. Keep that vision. Offer affordable indie prices, and affordable commercial prices. Post those prices. If you come up with this "Call us for a quote" nonsense, I'll be really hacked off.

You'd better stay reasonable in your pricing or someone else will fill your market niche. Take a look at the C4 engine. The only difference in my mind with the GG business model is that you actually post a reasonable price for your commercial licenses. The C4 has a good indie price. They copied that part of the GG business model.

You can raise prices and as you have more features you should raise prices. Don't forget who you are or who your target market is. C4 is $350 for an indie license. Go above that with T3D and you may lose market share in the indie market.
#17
01/09/2009 (9:46 am)
@ Logan,

I respect your opinion, but I personally do not want to see three different versions of the engine.
I think 1 version of the engine is the way to go! I like Chris Cain's Idea of a 3 tier system
#18
01/09/2009 (9:56 am)
I have never completed a game, using Torque or any other engine, so I am squarely in the camp of "hobbyist". So take that in consideration while reading this :)

Obviously, without knowing the detailed feature set for Torque3D it's hard to comment, but I'll base this on what I expect will be in the engine, based on what we've seen from GarageGames in the past. I wouldn't have a problem paying more for Torque3D than I did for TGEA, which was in turn more than TGE - and I own both, along with the AFX kit - for both TGE and TGEA, also TLK (before it was part of the engine), the RTS kit, and a bunch of other stuff.

T3D represents (I am hoping) a big step up in power and usability. That is worth an increase in price most definitely. But GarageGames needs to tread carefully in setting the price. If it gets too high, then all of us hobbyists will go somewhere else. I don't know where that will be, but it won't be here.

If we hobbyists leave, then GarageGames loses our license fee for the engine. But they also lose all the revenue generated from the addons and content packs that we buy on a regular basis - no engine, no need for content packs. I have no idea how much GG makes on the packs/addons they sell, but when you spread that out over the thousands of people who have bought the stuff, it adds up I'm sure.

I like the way TGE/TGEA is licensed now. Hobbyists can afford the engine and play with it, experiment with it, etc. Then if something comes out of that experimentation, a new game is born. Or a new addon pack, whatever. Look at the roster of GG employees/associates... how many of them got their start tinkering with the engine and adding "cool stuff (tm)" to it? I'm guessing a large percentage. Without the entry level hobbyist/indie pricing, those people might not be working for GG.

My suggestion for a pricing structure, and keep in mind, we don't know the full feature set so this is based on a guess at what T3D will include:

$595/seat Hobbyist license ($300 upgrade price for current TGEA indie licensees). Only available to people who have never released a commercial game - ie. true hobbyists. If you end up using T3D to produce a game and release it publicly, then an additional $1,000 license fee would be required to upgrade to the Indie license.

$1,595/seat Indie license (with appropriate upgrade price) - allows one publicly released game (commercial, shareware, freeware, whatever), with gross revenues generated up to $175,000. If revenues exceed that amount, then an additional $1,500 license fee would be required to upgrade to the full Commercial License.

$2,995/seat Commercial license (with appropriate upgrade price for current Commercial licensees) - allows one released game, generating any amount of revenues and no royalties.

This structure still allows us hobbyists to play with the engine (including allowing people who already own TGEA to upgrade), which will retain the community feeling that GarageGames has engendered over the years. But when development turns serious, the price increases accordingly, as it should. I think this will still allow people to tinker with the engine and learn how to use it in a hobby environment, which will continue to benefit the community as resources are shared back to the community. But it also rewards GarageGames for the effort of producing a quality engine. The better the engine is, the better the games produced with it, and the more sales they will generate.

Just my 2cp :)
#19
01/09/2009 (10:21 am)
I've been a GG engine owner since Oct 2004 and I have never really done much with the engine - probably never will. But it really is fun to play with and the Community is great.

But the engine as it stand isnt the easiest to use - there are always strange hurdles to overcome. With the low price tag that has always been acceptable.

Increasing the price tag for me will mean if it doesn't easily do what I want or isnt cheap enough to just play with then i will look elsewhere.

So Higher Price must = Much higher quality engine/tools/usefulness/expendability/support etc
#20
01/09/2009 (10:24 am)
Clarification on this: "Even though Unity now offers a lower priced "Indie" version of its tool that deprecates major features and significant license freedom, for a long time you couldn't buy Unity for less than $1000 / seat."

Unity always had the Indie license. I'm not sure if it counts as "deprecates major features and significant license freedom", as that is very subjective. The differences are listed here: http://unity3d.com/unity/licenses
Page «Previous 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Last »