Torque: Maybe the only real great solution for indies
by DodongoXP · 04/17/2007 (8:31 pm) · 13 comments
hello
i bought TGE and TGEA a couple of months ago... after a research of epic proportions for the appropiate game engine for my current situation ( experience and cost wise)..
and found that torque is not only a great solution for real indies.. but maybe the only great solution for indies that want to fly solo or with a very small team.. that want to accomplish something decent
after months of research i found tons of both 3d engines and game engines.. but all of them.. are or not really for indies.. that are too expensive or license restrictive or they are just some kind of toy or they are awfully incomplete..
the indie game engine market as i saw .. is plagged with sweet promises,obsolete abandoned projects or false advertising but not actually complete and usable products..
that seems you have to spend almost a million dollar for a good product.. but you have to be a very well stablished company with several released titles to be able to license those, so even if you have the money for that... how do you start been that kind company... answer is or you make your game engine from scratch with your desired features.. and waste the half of your life doing it.. instead of actually doing your games..
or you go and buy that products with strange licenses, half made feature sets and sweet promises of what will be in the future...
thats where torque amazed me... it could not be the best engine.. or it could lack documentation about it... but at least torque exists right now to a very decent level and cost really good low price.. and the license is indie friendly...
asumming you dont have software at all with the exception of the operating system... a complete game making toolset can be adquired with 1000 or less than 1000 dollars depending on your chosen tools(3d soft,image editing soft and that)...
torque really enables you to start in the game making businnes with the lowest investment posible in both money and time and is capable of pretty nice things
and to me the ability to start working on my games right now without any major limitation and not hoping promises of uncertain improvements to become true is a very great value
as i said.. it may not be best engine.. but it has some strong points..
any comments ???
Cheers
Hermes David Montes de oca Segovia
i bought TGE and TGEA a couple of months ago... after a research of epic proportions for the appropiate game engine for my current situation ( experience and cost wise)..
and found that torque is not only a great solution for real indies.. but maybe the only great solution for indies that want to fly solo or with a very small team.. that want to accomplish something decent
after months of research i found tons of both 3d engines and game engines.. but all of them.. are or not really for indies.. that are too expensive or license restrictive or they are just some kind of toy or they are awfully incomplete..
the indie game engine market as i saw .. is plagged with sweet promises,obsolete abandoned projects or false advertising but not actually complete and usable products..
that seems you have to spend almost a million dollar for a good product.. but you have to be a very well stablished company with several released titles to be able to license those, so even if you have the money for that... how do you start been that kind company... answer is or you make your game engine from scratch with your desired features.. and waste the half of your life doing it.. instead of actually doing your games..
or you go and buy that products with strange licenses, half made feature sets and sweet promises of what will be in the future...
thats where torque amazed me... it could not be the best engine.. or it could lack documentation about it... but at least torque exists right now to a very decent level and cost really good low price.. and the license is indie friendly...
asumming you dont have software at all with the exception of the operating system... a complete game making toolset can be adquired with 1000 or less than 1000 dollars depending on your chosen tools(3d soft,image editing soft and that)...
torque really enables you to start in the game making businnes with the lowest investment posible in both money and time and is capable of pretty nice things
and to me the ability to start working on my games right now without any major limitation and not hoping promises of uncertain improvements to become true is a very great value
as i said.. it may not be best engine.. but it has some strong points..
any comments ???
Cheers
Hermes David Montes de oca Segovia
#2
04/17/2007 (9:46 pm)
I agree with what has been written above. Torque is a good solution for the independent developer however it is not the ONLY good solution. Just like any other engine, it has its short comings (poorly optimized rendering code, horrible audio layer, numerous bugs etc) however Torque is one of the most complete engines available which is why it's so popular. Although, many new engines have come onto the market some of which are looking very promising. It won't be long before there are many more contenders just as good, if not better than Torque.
#3
that is what i was talking about.. with "maybe" .... that surprisingly seems like the only.. but as you said is not.. but mostly...
as i said.. it may not be best engine.. but for me ithe downsides are smaller than its advantages right now
yes i agree that with time.. there will be more options.. but.. i was talking about right now.. not in the future .. as many projects seem very promising.. but the majority will be just that.. promises.. that will never see the light
but in the meantime the " future" comes .. torque seems to be the most reliable way to work..
people is always waiting for the next big thing instead of using the current existing technology..
but for some people maybe cant afford wait and hope for something better to come out.. and just use what they got
thank you for your comments
Cheers!
04/18/2007 (12:29 am)
i agreethat is what i was talking about.. with "maybe" .... that surprisingly seems like the only.. but as you said is not.. but mostly...
as i said.. it may not be best engine.. but for me ithe downsides are smaller than its advantages right now
yes i agree that with time.. there will be more options.. but.. i was talking about right now.. not in the future .. as many projects seem very promising.. but the majority will be just that.. promises.. that will never see the light
but in the meantime the " future" comes .. torque seems to be the most reliable way to work..
people is always waiting for the next big thing instead of using the current existing technology..
but for some people maybe cant afford wait and hope for something better to come out.. and just use what they got
thank you for your comments
Cheers!
#4
Be careful what's under some glossy paint.
04/18/2007 (7:40 am)
I went through this as well and researched 48 engines..... I'm back here after a brief stint with another engine.Be careful what's under some glossy paint.
#5
I think it depends on what kind of game you want also. TGE is set up for a fps, and even with the RTS kit it's a lot of the coding side to get it to work as one, same goes for an rpg. But if your goal is an fps then it's a lot easier to work with
04/18/2007 (8:09 am)
I wouldn't count out the C4 engine, it is certainly not finished yet but the one upside to that is his purchase plan gives you every update ever for free. I check in on C4 from time to time to see what's new and it's constantly a ton of updates.I think it depends on what kind of game you want also. TGE is set up for a fps, and even with the RTS kit it's a lot of the coding side to get it to work as one, same goes for an rpg. But if your goal is an fps then it's a lot easier to work with
#6
I'd also like to point out that (at least from what I've seen) there are a couple different major aspects that people "rate" or "value" engines on... sometimes people value just one, or any combination thereof:
- how robust
- ease of use
- how powerful
- how stable
- how established
Now there are a lot of other engines out there, and though TGE and TGEA don't win the contest (typically) in "ease of use" (though depending on who you are and what type of approach you have), I think they are more than accomplished in the other attributes.
One of the big things these days is looking at only "ease of use". People see that somethings more challenging in TGE than in another engine and they say the engine "sucks" is "useless" etc... Most of these are hobbyists, or hobbyists who think they are Indies (not meant offensively, just an observation). Now most of the serious Indie developers do value the "ease of use" though they value the other aspects at typically as much or more... thats where TGE and TGEA really gets it power (especially TGE with it's long track-record)... when you begin to look at engine choices beyond just how quickly you can get a couple features and begin to examine how must time investment overall, the type of games that have been made in TGE (all the way back to it being founded on the Tribes games), the wonderful community support etc etc...
I think after all is said and done TGE and TGEA come out leaps and bounds above the value of any other engine in the price range... these considerations are also ones that people only focused on "ease of use" will have to face eventually as well. The problem with just focusing on how "easy" it is to use an engine for a game concept is that game development in general isn't easy, so you will run into issues, you will have to create things and add things that you didn't think you would have to, if you don't then your game probably doesn't offer much and/or it probably isn't very efficient.
04/18/2007 (8:30 am)
Nice and interesting write-up, question posed, and comments posted in response.I'd also like to point out that (at least from what I've seen) there are a couple different major aspects that people "rate" or "value" engines on... sometimes people value just one, or any combination thereof:
- how robust
- ease of use
- how powerful
- how stable
- how established
Now there are a lot of other engines out there, and though TGE and TGEA don't win the contest (typically) in "ease of use" (though depending on who you are and what type of approach you have), I think they are more than accomplished in the other attributes.
One of the big things these days is looking at only "ease of use". People see that somethings more challenging in TGE than in another engine and they say the engine "sucks" is "useless" etc... Most of these are hobbyists, or hobbyists who think they are Indies (not meant offensively, just an observation). Now most of the serious Indie developers do value the "ease of use" though they value the other aspects at typically as much or more... thats where TGE and TGEA really gets it power (especially TGE with it's long track-record)... when you begin to look at engine choices beyond just how quickly you can get a couple features and begin to examine how must time investment overall, the type of games that have been made in TGE (all the way back to it being founded on the Tribes games), the wonderful community support etc etc...
I think after all is said and done TGE and TGEA come out leaps and bounds above the value of any other engine in the price range... these considerations are also ones that people only focused on "ease of use" will have to face eventually as well. The problem with just focusing on how "easy" it is to use an engine for a game concept is that game development in general isn't easy, so you will run into issues, you will have to create things and add things that you didn't think you would have to, if you don't then your game probably doesn't offer much and/or it probably isn't very efficient.
#7
but like I said, unless you're rich that's only if you don't intend on making any money on the engine since licensing those engines costs so much. but then again, if you're game is really good you may find someone to finance a license and publish your game. i've often thought about just modding one of those commercial engines, but it always comes back to the "torque can do this too" argument.
04/18/2007 (8:55 am)
another thing to consider is whether you're going into development to make games or earn a living. if you're not interested in making money and jus want to do game development for the thrill of it, one could always use the quake, unreal, or half life engines to do a 'total conversion' which is basically what you're doing with torque if you're not making a fps. but like I said, unless you're rich that's only if you don't intend on making any money on the engine since licensing those engines costs so much. but then again, if you're game is really good you may find someone to finance a license and publish your game. i've often thought about just modding one of those commercial engines, but it always comes back to the "torque can do this too" argument.
#8
@sean -- if your using TGE to make a FPS couldn't it be considered a mod of TGE? And if that's how you want to compare things look at how many mods we're made with HL2, Q4, Doom 3 in the time they've been out as opposed to how many games have been put out with TGE/TGEA. So if a person truly has no dream/goal of ever selling a game that might be the way to go.
But it's like you said about the cost of licensing those engines vs buying this engine. Most people buy an engine, in my opinion, for 2 reasons. 1) The dream of one day getting good enough to sell a game with it 2) to learn more about making 3d games then you can with just a mod package of a AAA engine. With those 2 reasons your back to what this blog is about as far as whcih low cost engine to use.
04/18/2007 (11:08 am)
@Matt -- If your evaluating the first 4 what purpose does how established it is matter? Normally an engine becomes established because of those first 4 evaluations. Also I think the community as a whole realises most people buy an engine like this with the dream of making something great and one day selling it. But those people usually don't have c/c++ background, and those that do tend not to have it in 3d game engines. That is why people focus on ease of use/ease of learning.@sean -- if your using TGE to make a FPS couldn't it be considered a mod of TGE? And if that's how you want to compare things look at how many mods we're made with HL2, Q4, Doom 3 in the time they've been out as opposed to how many games have been put out with TGE/TGEA. So if a person truly has no dream/goal of ever selling a game that might be the way to go.
But it's like you said about the cost of licensing those engines vs buying this engine. Most people buy an engine, in my opinion, for 2 reasons. 1) The dream of one day getting good enough to sell a game with it 2) to learn more about making 3d games then you can with just a mod package of a AAA engine. With those 2 reasons your back to what this blog is about as far as whcih low cost engine to use.
#9
I was meaning established as in how long the engine has been around, has it been used for commercial games, is it something some guy made in his garage and is now charging you $100 (give or take for other comparable engines) or is it like Torque that was spawned off of a successful commercial game, etc.
I completely agree. Though keep in mind there's a difference between the reasons people want a game engine and what they are looking for in a game engine. The points I brought up are also issues they realize are very important after they begin using engine technology.
As a general principal, no. There's a huge difference between approaching something as a mod or as a game... now in practical use, there are plenty of people who have made games in TGE (mostly attempted to) that really are just mods in certain senses. Then again if you make something in HL2, Q4, and Doom 3 you get editors highly customized to that game, not only that genre. Torque is obviously geared more towards FPS, though its also open enough to be modified for various other genres, it also comes with an editor tool that isn't like a level editor tool that comes with a game (it's geared to be more general use than ways to mod that specific game).
I would agree with that :)
04/18/2007 (12:02 pm)
Quote:Normally an engine becomes established because of those first 4 evaluations.
I was meaning established as in how long the engine has been around, has it been used for commercial games, is it something some guy made in his garage and is now charging you $100 (give or take for other comparable engines) or is it like Torque that was spawned off of a successful commercial game, etc.
Quote:Also I think the community as a whole realises most people buy an engine like this with the dream of making something great and one day selling it. But those people usually don't have c/c++ background, and those that do tend not to have it in 3d game engines. That is why people focus on ease of use/ease of learning.
I completely agree. Though keep in mind there's a difference between the reasons people want a game engine and what they are looking for in a game engine. The points I brought up are also issues they realize are very important after they begin using engine technology.
Quote:if your using TGE to make a FPS couldn't it be considered a mod of TGE?
As a general principal, no. There's a huge difference between approaching something as a mod or as a game... now in practical use, there are plenty of people who have made games in TGE (mostly attempted to) that really are just mods in certain senses. Then again if you make something in HL2, Q4, and Doom 3 you get editors highly customized to that game, not only that genre. Torque is obviously geared more towards FPS, though its also open enough to be modified for various other genres, it also comes with an editor tool that isn't like a level editor tool that comes with a game (it's geared to be more general use than ways to mod that specific game).
Quote:But it's like you said about the cost of licensing those engines vs buying this engine. Most people buy an engine, in my opinion, for 2 reasons. 1) The dream of one day getting good enough to sell a game with it 2) to learn more about making 3d games then you can with just a mod package of a AAA engine. With those 2 reasons your back to what this blog is about as far as whcih low cost engine to use.
I would agree with that :)
#10
04/18/2007 (11:16 pm)
Quote:You know, the entire Microsoft empire was started in a garage by one man ;)
is it something some guy made in his garage
#11
Lol yes... very correct... and well we are "Garage" Games. I didn't articulate the statement well. I guess the better statement would be something along the lines:
Is it something some guy made in his garage +
and hasn't realy tested it
or
and hasn't released anything on it
or
is still in his garage making that same engine (despite significant time passing)
A lot of great things in game dev come out of "garages", heck thats why I'm at "Garage" Games :) If I didn't beleive that I would've abandoned this community a long time ago... though that doesn't mean every thing that comes out of a "garage" is good... in fact that'd be like saying a game is good just because it's "indie"... while in truth theres a massive majority of bad/incomplete/unfinished/unpolished (use whatever word(s) you want) out their.
04/19/2007 (12:11 am)
Quote:You know, the entire Microsoft empire was started in a garage by one man ;)
Lol yes... very correct... and well we are "Garage" Games. I didn't articulate the statement well. I guess the better statement would be something along the lines:
Is it something some guy made in his garage +
and hasn't realy tested it
or
and hasn't released anything on it
or
is still in his garage making that same engine (despite significant time passing)
A lot of great things in game dev come out of "garages", heck thats why I'm at "Garage" Games :) If I didn't beleive that I would've abandoned this community a long time ago... though that doesn't mean every thing that comes out of a "garage" is good... in fact that'd be like saying a game is good just because it's "indie"... while in truth theres a massive majority of bad/incomplete/unfinished/unpolished (use whatever word(s) you want) out their.
#12
If you see the topics asking for help people start recommending 'buy this book' and that but I you know, I wouldn't exactly be paying for a cheap engine if I was interested in buying 2-3 books and other stuff just to learn how to get it to work. I don't intend to spend all money buying books on the 'cheap' engine I bought to learn how it works or spend months asking question even on basics in the forums (which you can't search properly) since I would want to spend money licensing 3dsMax and zBrush type apps as well.
We need proper documentation (PDF, CHM.. hell, even on TDN, don't care) for non-programmers.
On the plus side, I bought Torque after trying out the demo and really loved the terrain editor (which is what I was used to in some other games like UT2004 or even Wc3) and the part where it is compatible with Linux and Mac as well. Also, there are excellent 'free' resources by the community and GG just released Constructor for free (I hope they keep it free :P). Not to mention that everything you ask in forums gets answered but still, nothing beats a well designed help doc (like zBrush and 3dsMax has).
04/19/2007 (11:28 pm)
The only problem I see with Torque (I am not saying it's the only good engine out there though) is the lack of documentation. This is a pain for us non programmers to go around asking even the basics on how to start your own separate game outside the SDK directory, etc.If you see the topics asking for help people start recommending 'buy this book' and that but I you know, I wouldn't exactly be paying for a cheap engine if I was interested in buying 2-3 books and other stuff just to learn how to get it to work. I don't intend to spend all money buying books on the 'cheap' engine I bought to learn how it works or spend months asking question even on basics in the forums (which you can't search properly) since I would want to spend money licensing 3dsMax and zBrush type apps as well.
We need proper documentation (PDF, CHM.. hell, even on TDN, don't care) for non-programmers.
On the plus side, I bought Torque after trying out the demo and really loved the terrain editor (which is what I was used to in some other games like UT2004 or even Wc3) and the part where it is compatible with Linux and Mac as well. Also, there are excellent 'free' resources by the community and GG just released Constructor for free (I hope they keep it free :P). Not to mention that everything you ask in forums gets answered but still, nothing beats a well designed help doc (like zBrush and 3dsMax has).
#13
Also, some engines are developed by individuals (hey... even I had my own engine and it was quite powerful) but as its just one or two people behind the engine, it may take some time to update. Sometimes they decide to drop the project for something more profitable. Garagegames is commited to Torque so you have the guarantee that your investment in the engine will be supported for some time.
In the other hand, documentation is confusing. Garagegames should invest a little more in creating official step by step tutorials (not just starter kits) and documentations or (if not interested) promote members of the community in order to create official docs. Think about it like the Game Programming Gems or ShaderX Series. Make calls for Torque Tutorials 1 and allow every person in the forums to send their article proposals. Pick the best ones and allow the author to enhance them. Then check and double check it for grammar and idea clarity. Then realease the volume to the comunity like a PDF. I guess many capable members in the forums will accept payments in the form of licences... like... update your license to a Commercial Version or something like that.
Just my ideas.
Luck!
Guimo
04/20/2007 (9:23 am)
I decided to go for Torque more for the Community. Other engines may be easier to use but if you have a problem or need an engine hack then you have to code it yourself (spending valuable time in the process). With Torque its very probable that other one already had the same problem, got it resolved with help of other members and you get the code for the solution. Sometimes you have to hack it a little in order to adapt it for your needs and post the solution. And if you are the first with a problem, then you can ask for ideas and solve it. Then you can post a resourse that will be helpful for others. In other words, Community is a powerful asset.Also, some engines are developed by individuals (hey... even I had my own engine and it was quite powerful) but as its just one or two people behind the engine, it may take some time to update. Sometimes they decide to drop the project for something more profitable. Garagegames is commited to Torque so you have the guarantee that your investment in the engine will be supported for some time.
In the other hand, documentation is confusing. Garagegames should invest a little more in creating official step by step tutorials (not just starter kits) and documentations or (if not interested) promote members of the community in order to create official docs. Think about it like the Game Programming Gems or ShaderX Series. Make calls for Torque Tutorials 1 and allow every person in the forums to send their article proposals. Pick the best ones and allow the author to enhance them. Then check and double check it for grammar and idea clarity. Then realease the volume to the comunity like a PDF. I guess many capable members in the forums will accept payments in the form of licences... like... update your license to a Commercial Version or something like that.
Just my ideas.
Luck!
Guimo
Torque Owner Dan Wolfe
Default Studio Name
However, I totally agree there are tons of crap engines that are unfinished, abandoned, unstable, unusable, unsupported, obscenely priced, or too restrictively licensed. Digging through them all to find the good one or two contenders is hard. I'm a Mac developer, so that eliminated probably 80-90% of the field for me right off the bat. Still, I spent over two years evaluating different engines before I settled on two I use on a regular basis depending on the project (TGB and Unity). Now that Constructor is out and there's more of a complete pipeline on the Mac, I'm re-evaluating TGE again. I like it and once there's a Mac port of Torsion I think I'll add TGE back to my list of regularly used engines.