January Product Update
by Eric Preisz · 01/20/2011 (3:43 am) · 117 comments
If you haven’t read our other blog, you might want to read it first. This blog, is a more detailed look into our near term product road map.
Bad news first…
TorqueX – February 28th will be the last day that you will be able to purchase TorqueX. The community is tight knit and working on a their own version of the engine, so for the next thirty days you will still be able to buy TorqueX and assign those licensees to other developers through a studio access panel. Discontinuing TorqueX is a hard decision for us, especially when considering how dedicated this community is. I would personally like to take the time to thank Pino. He’s a rock star and anyone using TorqueX knows that. We are still fans of XNA and we have a lot of time invested in the API. Don’t be surprised if/when an XNA based product finds it's way back to GarageGames. We have put a lot of effort into a future Windows Phone 7 product; however, we are taking a step back to reevaluate direction on all emerging platforms. Your opinions are greatly appreciated.
iTorque 3D – We will be discontinuing iTorque 3D. In the future, we will not be pre-selling our new engines without absolute confidence of a QA date. We will be offering refunds to everyone who we can validate as a purchaser of iT3D. We are very happy to have our new owners (more on them in the first blog ) support on this – it’s the right thing to do.
Torque 2D – We have no significant updates to Torque 2D ( aka TGB ) at this time. The good news is that Torque 2D is a very stable product that is able to meet the specs of a wide array of machines including netbooks. Torque 2D’s next version, which we discussed last year at this time is still in development and part of long term plans. It’s unfortunately still to early for us to provide more detail about the next version of Torque 2D and at this time, we recommend that you focus your development plans on Torque 2D ( aka TGB ) until we are able to hone in on a release window.
Good news…
Torque 3D 1.1 Final –Torque 3D 1.1 Final will be heading to QA in the coming weeks. We have a pending driver issue and a relatively short list of bugs in Jira that we are currently slaying. We have a 1.1 version of T3D for the Mac; however, we aren’t able to say with 100% certainty that it will meet our gold standard by the release of 1.1 Final. That decision will need to be delayed until we are able to properly review the code. Our contractors continued to work on Torque 3D 1.1 during the transition and their hard work has kept the ball rolling towards a final release.
Docs & Tutorials – We are going to be working towards our goal of better documentation, docs, and tutorials over the next few months. This work will move slowly at first, but over time, we will be able to hire and scale our efforts as we progress on our product roadmap.
iTorque 2D 1.4.1 – We are in the final rounds of QA and updates for 1.4.1. Barring any new iOS updates that would create a ripple effect to our timing, iT2D 1.4.1 will be going to QA in a couple of weeks.
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#82
I was looking forward to them and I'm hugely happy to see that garagegames will remain. :)
I'm sorry to see such good engines with lots of potentials go but on the other hand its better to cut some products off instead of the whole company right?
Also very happy about the tutorials and documentation you are taking on since a lot of it it's really needed.
01/24/2011 (4:51 am)
First of all thanks a lot for the great news!I was looking forward to them and I'm hugely happy to see that garagegames will remain. :)
I'm sorry to see such good engines with lots of potentials go but on the other hand its better to cut some products off instead of the whole company right?
Also very happy about the tutorials and documentation you are taking on since a lot of it it's really needed.
#83
01/24/2011 (4:56 pm)
Great news and glad GG is back! As far as T2D, I'm very happy that its not dead as I'm currently developing an MMO in it. 2 major enhancements that I'm looking for are a web plugin and improved performance. Congrats on the comeback! 
#84
However some items give me grave concern.
Specifically the iTourque3d demise coupled with mention of a Windows 7 Phone product.
Could someone at GG explain how skipping over the installed base leader , jumping over the next largest installed base ( which is giving the leader a strong run ) and expending resources on a platform that is shaping up like an "also ran" is helping developers who use your products?
Every project with a mobile component I have worked on for the past year ( over 10 ) has read " Must support iPhone,iPod touch" , iPad became a solid requirement by mid year with Android joining the pack by years end. Customers with more money then sense ask jokingly for Blackberry support . Not even the hardcore Windows customers are using or asking for Windows 7 phone support.
This would not be so frustrating if there were not so many other things that could also make the difference, things that have ruled Torque out despite efforts to bring it to the front. Linux server support and solid documentation to name a few.
I hope to see continued improvement but this post leaves me with some troubling questions. Torque always hooks customers easily with solid PC and Mac support ( yes Mac is important and growing, especially with the iApp store live ) but Torque struggles when customers start asking for support for ( or even a solid timeline for support for ) things they consider essential.
01/24/2011 (10:28 pm)
Glad to see signs of life. The updates are appreciated.However some items give me grave concern.
Specifically the iTourque3d demise coupled with mention of a Windows 7 Phone product.
Could someone at GG explain how skipping over the installed base leader , jumping over the next largest installed base ( which is giving the leader a strong run ) and expending resources on a platform that is shaping up like an "also ran" is helping developers who use your products?
Every project with a mobile component I have worked on for the past year ( over 10 ) has read " Must support iPhone,iPod touch" , iPad became a solid requirement by mid year with Android joining the pack by years end. Customers with more money then sense ask jokingly for Blackberry support . Not even the hardcore Windows customers are using or asking for Windows 7 phone support.
This would not be so frustrating if there were not so many other things that could also make the difference, things that have ruled Torque out despite efforts to bring it to the front. Linux server support and solid documentation to name a few.
I hope to see continued improvement but this post leaves me with some troubling questions. Torque always hooks customers easily with solid PC and Mac support ( yes Mac is important and growing, especially with the iApp store live ) but Torque struggles when customers start asking for support for ( or even a solid timeline for support for ) things they consider essential.
#85
01/25/2011 (5:26 am)
because anybody who thinks there's a real 3d games future on the iphone is a fool, android changes its systems too fast and needs to settle down before any 3rd party or middleware can deal with it at the moment (as an indie this is good, its slowing down the big boys), and as for windows 7 mobile, i dont suppose theres an awful lot of work needed to get t2d modified to work on it 
#86
If you're worried that WinPh7 got ahead of iT3D somehow, you can quit worrying.
The Windows Phone 7 build is a community / licensee built thing. Not a GG build. If someone wants to dedicate their time to that, more power to them. (Witness the true power of source code, eh?)
The only three products going forward, unless more are added (presumably much later) are the ones prominently featured.
01/25/2011 (5:42 am)
@Andrew13If you're worried that WinPh7 got ahead of iT3D somehow, you can quit worrying.
The Windows Phone 7 build is a community / licensee built thing. Not a GG build. If someone wants to dedicate their time to that, more power to them. (Witness the true power of source code, eh?)
The only three products going forward, unless more are added (presumably much later) are the ones prominently featured.
#87
iOS is no joke! Customers ask for it, top of the list.
01/25/2011 (10:54 am)
Andrew has some valid points. I have many of the same concerns too. Luckily, I know that GG/GSD is wrestling with the same questions and working with valid facts. One of which is to stabilize current offerings/core strengths right now.iOS is no joke! Customers ask for it, top of the list.
#88
The real life shipping products that are generating revenue proves this statement to be false. The 3d engine of a triple AAA vendor proves this to be false. The number of titles that already use 3D in creative ,useful and entertaining ways proves this false.
No one is suggesting that an iOS hardware can handle 60 FPS HD resolution real time rendering. However customers are asking how they can pay for something similar to what has already been produced. Customers are asking how come the development environment that already has a Mac 3D client and iPhone 2D client is not also capable of 3D.Most customers request come with references to already shipping products, their expectations are not unreasonable.
In the face of all the things that the community has requested from the current Torque 3d product and not seen and statements like
My concern is that that support for good things is being drawn away by something that has not earned one erg of effort. Eric did not say " we are supporting a community port of TorqueX"... if thats the case a simple post could clear that up. My concern is that the forums are full of requests for improvements ( and bugs) driven by existing developers and
I understand that everyone has got to eat. If the MS fairy came down an dropped a huge check in GG's lap for Winphone7 then congrats.
I am looking for more reassurance that my faith in GG is not misplaced
01/25/2011 (5:42 pm)
Quote:because anybody who thinks there's a real 3d games future on the iphone is a fool
The real life shipping products that are generating revenue proves this statement to be false. The 3d engine of a triple AAA vendor proves this to be false. The number of titles that already use 3D in creative ,useful and entertaining ways proves this false.
No one is suggesting that an iOS hardware can handle 60 FPS HD resolution real time rendering. However customers are asking how they can pay for something similar to what has already been produced. Customers are asking how come the development environment that already has a Mac 3D client and iPhone 2D client is not also capable of 3D.Most customers request come with references to already shipping products, their expectations are not unreasonable.
In the face of all the things that the community has requested from the current Torque 3d product and not seen and statements like
Quote:We have put a lot of effort into a future Windows Phone 7 productI am asking more questions.
My concern is that that support for good things is being drawn away by something that has not earned one erg of effort. Eric did not say " we are supporting a community port of TorqueX"... if thats the case a simple post could clear that up. My concern is that the forums are full of requests for improvements ( and bugs) driven by existing developers and
Quote:We have put a lot of effort.. Windows Phone 7 product.
I understand that everyone has got to eat. If the MS fairy came down an dropped a huge check in GG's lap for Winphone7 then congrats.
I am looking for more reassurance that my faith in GG is not misplaced
#89
I do, though, agree long term that with all the 3D acceleration hardware being dumped into higher end models that 3D mobile titles are going to be there. How viable they are depends on how enjoyable it is to play. Early UIs I've seen on demo videos seem to have some disadvantages, at least to this long-time FPSer. I expect I'll start hearing in the news a variation on the complaints about the first touchscreens and "gorilla arm" fatigue. Last bit-- remeber back when 3D games had a hodgepodge of keyboard controls and WASD hadn't become the defacto control layout? The layout for mobile UI has some richly divergent possibilities and there'll be some experimenting before a convention emerges. Given those variables, there's time -- I think -- to pull back from iT3D and return at a more resource-rich time. I bet it'll get its day in the sun, eventually. I'd still put iT2D ahead of iT3D for a while yet. Plenty of 2D mobile games earning the top dollars in that market.
Just my attempt at a nuanced two cents.
01/25/2011 (6:32 pm)
I'd guess that _past_ efforts went into WinPh7. Got to also realize that there's degree of commonality MS'd intended with their libraries, so I'm sure for TX work it'd seemed a natural path to try. I take at face value the statement that work is only proceeding on T3D and iT2D with T2D propper on standby for now. If that's what they said I kind of dout there's some secret development program going on siphoning off resources.I do, though, agree long term that with all the 3D acceleration hardware being dumped into higher end models that 3D mobile titles are going to be there. How viable they are depends on how enjoyable it is to play. Early UIs I've seen on demo videos seem to have some disadvantages, at least to this long-time FPSer. I expect I'll start hearing in the news a variation on the complaints about the first touchscreens and "gorilla arm" fatigue. Last bit-- remeber back when 3D games had a hodgepodge of keyboard controls and WASD hadn't become the defacto control layout? The layout for mobile UI has some richly divergent possibilities and there'll be some experimenting before a convention emerges. Given those variables, there's time -- I think -- to pull back from iT3D and return at a more resource-rich time. I bet it'll get its day in the sun, eventually. I'd still put iT2D ahead of iT3D for a while yet. Plenty of 2D mobile games earning the top dollars in that market.
Just my attempt at a nuanced two cents.
#90
My focus has always been on designing a 3D RPG for the pc. I stated with TGE, moved to TGEA and finaly Torque 3D. If Garage Games had decided not to continue with version 1.1 or decided to dump Torque 3D completly, I may have felt the need to try a differnt engine. So I understand the frustration of those who have or had expectations with engines that Garage Games is no longer working on publicly.
I would imagine that any work on other engines is being done by people in their free time who have a passion and desire to produce a cutting edge product but still developing their knowledge of the environment.
01/25/2011 (7:11 pm)
I for one like the direction that Garage games has taken. It seems to me that the company is focusing on the engines that they feel most comfortable in releasing to the community. Perhaps the right talent wasn't preseant to release iT3D at a level they could take pride in. I also think I read a statement once concerning Torque 3D 1.1 for Mac and how progress was slow simply because there weren't as many people qualified or experienced working with Mac to keep up. I obviouly don't want to knock the skills of the employees who work on these engines. If writing an engine was easy, I would have successfully finished one years ago. I have seven books on my shelf right now that focused on programming video games and writing engines in OpenGL and DirectX dating as far back as DirectX 7. I ended up with an engine that would lose FPS as soon as more than three textures were introduced to the scene. My focus has always been on designing a 3D RPG for the pc. I stated with TGE, moved to TGEA and finaly Torque 3D. If Garage Games had decided not to continue with version 1.1 or decided to dump Torque 3D completly, I may have felt the need to try a differnt engine. So I understand the frustration of those who have or had expectations with engines that Garage Games is no longer working on publicly.
I would imagine that any work on other engines is being done by people in their free time who have a passion and desire to produce a cutting edge product but still developing their knowledge of the environment.
#91
01/26/2011 (9:40 am)
My feedback: I believe having iTorque3d is necessary for long term future growth. I hope you will merge it back into the mix. Certainly a Mac OS X version of Torque3d is strongly desired. Win 7 Mobile is currently of no interest, but if they actually get people to buy the phones then it will become so. Torque2d & 3d for Android is still unknown (see: http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/11/01/26/google_not_happy_with_slow_android_app_sales.html ), but like Win 7 mobile, has the potential to become important. 
#92
Let me expand on that. No more pre-sales. No more pre-hype. No more promises about the future. We are simply not going to comment on future platforms and products until we are absolutely confident that we can deliver.
Everyone knows that GarageGames has worked on a huge variety of technologies over the years, from the Wii to Windows Phone 7, but it would be a mistake to draw definitive conclusions about future products based on past endeavors. What we can tell you is that going forward internal development at GarageGames is going to be extremely focused. T3D 1.1 is being worked on now and will head to QA within weeks. iTorque2D 1.4.1 is in a similar state. Support docs and tutorials for existing products are being improved. We will update you on other products when they are ready. In the meantime, anything else is pure speculation.
01/27/2011 (1:16 am)
The situation with iTorque3D is complicated. The bottom line is that GarageGames does not have a product to sell. No one is happy about that, least of all Eric and myself, but it has given us a chance to state a new policy: No more pre-selling.Let me expand on that. No more pre-sales. No more pre-hype. No more promises about the future. We are simply not going to comment on future platforms and products until we are absolutely confident that we can deliver.
Everyone knows that GarageGames has worked on a huge variety of technologies over the years, from the Wii to Windows Phone 7, but it would be a mistake to draw definitive conclusions about future products based on past endeavors. What we can tell you is that going forward internal development at GarageGames is going to be extremely focused. T3D 1.1 is being worked on now and will head to QA within weeks. iTorque2D 1.4.1 is in a similar state. Support docs and tutorials for existing products are being improved. We will update you on other products when they are ready. In the meantime, anything else is pure speculation.
#93
I think whats possibly alarming for me personally is what is happening with products like T2d. It seems like this strategy has been in use for it since a few weeks after announcement and is not anything new; and one of the things I hated after GG went away, and still do.
If you announce something, like was done with T2d, and its in the works as you say it is, it should be understood the community as passionate as this one, deserves regular updates and feedback. I kept interested and involved when I was seeing posts on a regular basis. However even this product posting was completely empty of anything interesting about T2d, other than, it might not be dead. Which I guess is good, and I'm supposed to feel ok about it, but I'm sorry, I just dont.
I find it pretty hard to believe that something in development for a year already has no news of interest? No release dates that can be shared, no betas that have been announced, no feature lists, no eye candy screenshots, and no developer postings.
Its like the entire 2d world just got put on hold over year ago, and really is not as an important focus as being portrayed. On 10/30/2009 we were told.. "Now that Torque 3D has officially shipped, it's time for Torque 2D to get the spotlight." that was as best I can tell the last "real" development post regarding T2d's future. October of 2009! Unless I've just missed something along the way..
I'm almost not believing there is such a product anymore. But if its going to be this long getting the "new" product out, shouldn't at least there be bug fixes in the current one your telling everyone to use?
01/27/2011 (3:44 am)
I think entirely newly conceived products you might have a point about it being better to keep those closely held, in some ways its pretty diligent and responsible. I think whats possibly alarming for me personally is what is happening with products like T2d. It seems like this strategy has been in use for it since a few weeks after announcement and is not anything new; and one of the things I hated after GG went away, and still do.
If you announce something, like was done with T2d, and its in the works as you say it is, it should be understood the community as passionate as this one, deserves regular updates and feedback. I kept interested and involved when I was seeing posts on a regular basis. However even this product posting was completely empty of anything interesting about T2d, other than, it might not be dead. Which I guess is good, and I'm supposed to feel ok about it, but I'm sorry, I just dont.
I find it pretty hard to believe that something in development for a year already has no news of interest? No release dates that can be shared, no betas that have been announced, no feature lists, no eye candy screenshots, and no developer postings.
Its like the entire 2d world just got put on hold over year ago, and really is not as an important focus as being portrayed. On 10/30/2009 we were told.. "Now that Torque 3D has officially shipped, it's time for Torque 2D to get the spotlight." that was as best I can tell the last "real" development post regarding T2d's future. October of 2009! Unless I've just missed something along the way..
I'm almost not believing there is such a product anymore. But if its going to be this long getting the "new" product out, shouldn't at least there be bug fixes in the current one your telling everyone to use?
#94
01/27/2011 (4:59 am)
I wouldn't mind some talking about T2D, since it has a future.
#95
01/27/2011 (6:33 am)
Isnt that what the 1.7.5 release was all about?
#96
01/27/2011 (7:41 am)
I mean the real T2D…not TGB renamed ;)
#97
Give it time. I'd welcome the change in seeing a product be ready-for-release the day we know of it.
Companies that release news ahead of product are, in a sense "borrowing" future news. I'd feel overextended on that kind of borrowing if I had to pull products. Sure, there'll be a temporary dearth of news. Once new things start emerging I'm imagining we can start to feel like we're able to get a normal stream of news. Also, while I don't feel it myself, some people felt a bit surprised when demo'd features didn't hit T3D 1.0. "Better to under promise and over deliver", anyone?
FWIW, this from a self-admitted product-promo-news junkie.
You WANT the temporary dearth of product news. (Well, OK, not want it but want it more than a return to promising far ahead of release.) It's the only way we're going to see GG switch to a mode of generating excitement WHEN the product is released. Easier to retain long-term trust from that position, less "borrowing".
01/27/2011 (7:48 am)
There were a few features in the T2D vids I recall being ... really intriguing ... yet not in 1.7.5. Shaders? Yet more physics? Regardless, I think for me the best hope would've been a hidden improvement -- a greater shared base of code with T3D. All... somewhere, maybe in the final feature set and maybe not.Give it time. I'd welcome the change in seeing a product be ready-for-release the day we know of it.
Companies that release news ahead of product are, in a sense "borrowing" future news. I'd feel overextended on that kind of borrowing if I had to pull products. Sure, there'll be a temporary dearth of news. Once new things start emerging I'm imagining we can start to feel like we're able to get a normal stream of news. Also, while I don't feel it myself, some people felt a bit surprised when demo'd features didn't hit T3D 1.0. "Better to under promise and over deliver", anyone?
FWIW, this from a self-admitted product-promo-news junkie.
You WANT the temporary dearth of product news. (Well, OK, not want it but want it more than a return to promising far ahead of release.) It's the only way we're going to see GG switch to a mode of generating excitement WHEN the product is released. Easier to retain long-term trust from that position, less "borrowing".
#98
As a *former* customer of GarageGames I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. I don't want that happening anymore. Believe me, Eric really doesn't want that happening anymore. As I am sure you can imagine, from the company's perspective communication with the community is a double edged sword - its great until an employee says something that it later turns out we can't deliver on. So when we have something to say about TGB/T2D that we have absolute confidence in, then we will say it.
If there is something that you as a customer really want to know, the best thing you can do is exactly what you've done already - post something in the blogs or forums. I'm trying to read everything. The rest of the team at GarageGames is trying to read everything. Now I know that you in particular are really looking for a T2D update.
01/27/2011 (8:26 am)
@Rodney Rindels.As a *former* customer of GarageGames I know EXACTLY what you are talking about. I don't want that happening anymore. Believe me, Eric really doesn't want that happening anymore. As I am sure you can imagine, from the company's perspective communication with the community is a double edged sword - its great until an employee says something that it later turns out we can't deliver on. So when we have something to say about TGB/T2D that we have absolute confidence in, then we will say it.
If there is something that you as a customer really want to know, the best thing you can do is exactly what you've done already - post something in the blogs or forums. I'm trying to read everything. The rest of the team at GarageGames is trying to read everything. Now I know that you in particular are really looking for a T2D update.
#99
@Erik - I can appreciate the double edge sword, something we deal with ourselves to our customers. But I think at least monthly / quarterly updates saying , "Yep We are still alive" , in some type of "state of the products" message from Eric like this one go a long way. a year however is way to long to keep customers wondering. If GG cant tell us "exact" details thats fine, its your train after all, but then you then risk potentially missing the mark on what the community wants because there wont be a proper forum for feedback and questions that might help you to understand what we want.
To be clear, I do not want to be let down either, but I do not want to loose my voice on the product direction /features either because a few people do not have the understanding they wont get their exact feature in a final release and get upset. A big part of the attraction to this product line used to be that I could jump into a forum or IRC discussion, and give constructive feedback that actually got listened too and implemented. The way these forward position statements read seem to follow how the relationship has already worked for the last year with T2d , it feels more like we are no longer an integral part of product direction or design plans like we were. I do not care about release dates , please take an extra year if you need to deliver a stellar product, but there is little risk in keeping us heavily involved during the process really. As it stands, I do not know enough about what your planning for T2d to even help if I wanted too and did on T2d Beta quite extensively.
01/27/2011 (10:57 am)
@bloodknight - That was last April. If you have used that release you know it still has some pretty major and glaring platform issues that have been overlooked because of shifting resources to this new T2d. While its still usable obviously, I think it a little embarrassing. @Erik - I can appreciate the double edge sword, something we deal with ourselves to our customers. But I think at least monthly / quarterly updates saying , "Yep We are still alive" , in some type of "state of the products" message from Eric like this one go a long way. a year however is way to long to keep customers wondering. If GG cant tell us "exact" details thats fine, its your train after all, but then you then risk potentially missing the mark on what the community wants because there wont be a proper forum for feedback and questions that might help you to understand what we want.
To be clear, I do not want to be let down either, but I do not want to loose my voice on the product direction /features either because a few people do not have the understanding they wont get their exact feature in a final release and get upset. A big part of the attraction to this product line used to be that I could jump into a forum or IRC discussion, and give constructive feedback that actually got listened too and implemented. The way these forward position statements read seem to follow how the relationship has already worked for the last year with T2d , it feels more like we are no longer an integral part of product direction or design plans like we were. I do not care about release dates , please take an extra year if you need to deliver a stellar product, but there is little risk in keeping us heavily involved during the process really. As it stands, I do not know enough about what your planning for T2d to even help if I wanted too and did on T2d Beta quite extensively.
#100
You will not loose your voice on product direction and features. 7 days into the relaunch and I think the proof is there that we are already listening to, and interacting with the community more than the company has in years. But we didn't pre-announce that we were going to do that - we just started doing it.
At the same time, we have to be careful what we say because we just don't want to make promises about products and then let people down anymore. So keep the comments coming in the blogs and forums. And jump into IRC whenever you can - I'll be in there myself from time to time.
01/27/2011 (2:30 pm)
@ Rodney. A year IS way to long to keep customers wondering. No question. But rather than *talk* about how we are going to fix that, I just want us to do it. Not just for T2D, but for all our products. The proof will be in the pudding.You will not loose your voice on product direction and features. 7 days into the relaunch and I think the proof is there that we are already listening to, and interacting with the community more than the company has in years. But we didn't pre-announce that we were going to do that - we just started doing it.
At the same time, we have to be careful what we say because we just don't want to make promises about products and then let people down anymore. So keep the comments coming in the blogs and forums. And jump into IRC whenever you can - I'll be in there myself from time to time.
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