The New Magic Word
by Brett Seyler · 11/12/2009 (4:02 pm) · 289 comments
Last week, Epic Games made a pretty big splash announcing the "UDK" or Unreal Development Kit. UDK is based on the *very expensive* Unreal Engine 3, the most dominant game engine in the big budget console games space. There's been a lot of hyperbolic talk about how this is an "end of days" development for Torque and our friendly Copenhagen competitors, Unity. I want to take a while here to talk about what I think this means for Torque and where we fit in the competitive landscape.When the announcement showed up, of course I immediately wanted to dig in and find out what was up. I took some time and looked at the license on the UDK site. Many people here downloaded the UDK to play around with it and see what was what. It turns out that the UDK is basically an up to date set of editors for Unreal Engine 3. There's no source code provided. Instead, as with modding, you can do scripting with Epic's Unrealscript. You can package your project for Windows only. There are docs online, but otherwise no dedicated support. So let's be clear. This is NOT Unreal Engine 3. That would kill a huge source of revenue (supported, source code licensing for PC and consoles) for Epic. It *is* a well-tested, rich set of editors for making stuff based on UE3 games or projects.
What's the license like for this? Well, Epic is slapping up the word FREE everywhere and who doesn't love something for FREE right? It's a magic word. The UDK website grants you (for free) a license to make non-commercial works. If you want to make money, or benefit indirectly somehow from using the UDK (think making a demo to advertise or sell something else or a company who wants to train employees with a simulation), you have to pay. The terms of making something commercial with the UDK are actually a bit murky because Epic does not post the license on their site or allow you to purchase a commercial license on thier site. Instead, they give you an email address to hit up and describe the terms of the license structure.
Option A: You benefit (somehow) from using and distributing UDK projects, but there's no revenue. You can pay $2500 / seat annually for this use of the UDK.
Option B: You sell, advertise on, or somehow directly or indirectly, generate revenue from a project made with UDK. You pay $99 up front and you give up 25% of all revenues exceeding $5000 on that project.
Pretty straightforward options! It would be nice to see the license, but assuming it's reasonable, sounds like a pretty fair deal. So what's the catch? How does Epic make money from this? They don't. Not really. This is a loss leader and an evangelism play and it really doesn't cost them much of anything to do. For years you've been able to spend $60 on Unreal Tournament, Gears of War, or other Unreal titles and use the provided editors to modify the game. You can do a lot with mods and people have created really cool stuff. Epic never monetized this practice before. Instead, they used it as a way to create longer tail sales for their games and to recruit new talent from the modder community. By offering the "UDK," Epic is taking the next step by letting people distribute Unreal mods without requiring ownership of the modded Unreal game. In addition to formalizing what they've always done with the mod communities built around Unreal, Epic is likely to heavily monetize the inevitable step from UDK --> UE3. This is no small step and it will cost small teams as much as Epic can wring out of them, in addition to the 25% royalties they are already on the hook for. My guess is that it will be case by case, but it's guaranteed that most teams will run into barriers not having access to the engine source, just as they do with other binary-only engines.
I'm not going to dismiss this move by Epic. It matters. Here's why...
#1: It's Epic (no pun intended). They are an absolute behemoth in the games industry. They've absolutely demolished all competitors in the AAA console engine space for the last 5 years, essentially since EA acquired Criterion, makers of Renderware, and stopped licensing it to 3rd parties. They have an established business selling very expensive (think 6-7 figures, depending on the royalty rate) licenses for big budget console games and now, they've decided they want indies, amateurs, and hobbyists to use their product too. That's a pretty decent market disturbance.
#2: It's validation. When I wrote about the hyper-competitive, well-served big budget AAA space while discussing the pricing and licensing of Torque 3D back in January, I noted that the AAA middleware market hasn't grown much in the last decade and it continues to be a pretty fixed size market. At the same time, the space Torque and Unity occupy (better accessibility and opportunity via lower licensing costs and more attractive platforms) has grown tremendously. This community here grows by hundreds of users every week. A larger portion of the games industry as a whole is moving away from stagnant AAA console games and targeting super-fast growing platforms like the iPhone, Facebook, and yes, even just regular PC online games. Clearly Epic must see something they like in these markets. They missed the boat on the Wii and they are probably struggling to maintain (let alone grow) revenues in the AAA console space. I'm not sure if this will be a long-lasting commitment on Epic's part, or simply a way to maximize the value of their current tech while the new stuff (UE4) is what they're going to start pushing to high-end clients, right around the corner. Regardless, validation is nice.
#3: Now everyone can see behind the "AAA" curtain. We've been telling you for years that Torque is top-notch technology. We've said "it's documented up to, and in many cases well beyond the industry standard." Without being able to look at engines like Unreal, that's been a hard claim for you guys to verify. Now you can. Have a look at UDK. Look at the tools. Look at the docs. Test out the support. We think you'll find that Torque 3D stacks up very well in comparison, and all without the licensing burden of big royalties or high-cost access to source. Putting aside source though, it's worth answering the question:
What does Torque currently do better than Unreal?
Rendering - Torque is the first affordable engine with a deferred renderer. You have real-time dynamic lighting and shadows. You can have thousands of dynamic point lights in a scene at almost no hit to performance. You can't do this in Unreal. Torque's Light Pre-pass rendering is the standard for the current era of hardware. CryEngine uses it as do many of the best looking games on the market.

Contrast this with Unreal, which uses a years old forward renderer that does not allow for global dynamic lighting or shadows. In fact, UE3 does not support more than one dynamic light casting shadows on the same object. It will switch shadows automatically to the nearest light. A directional light will allways switch off any light's shadows. With Unreal, all global illumination is baked. Everything you can do in Unreal, you can do with pureLIGHT in Torque 3D, but with Torque, you can combine dynamic global lighting and shadows with beautfully baked static lightmaps that give you realtime iterative results, not an hours long, black box baking process. Looking ahead, we'll probably be the first affordable engine with DX11 support, and I doubt you're going to see that from Unreal until UE4, likely a couple years away from public licensing, at least.
Terrain (editing AND fidelity) - Definitely test out the UDK terrain editors next to Torque 3D's. The UDK terrain tools are several generations behind us. In Torque 3D, you get much nicer terrain fidelity as well. It takes the right artwork to show this (which you'll see with Pacific Demo here in a few weeks), but the advantage for Torque is clear.

Networking - Out of the box, Torque 3D will do things that you'll never get UDK to do without source code access and a LOT of work. It's as simple as that.
Platform support - Capable deployment to OSX machines is increasing a very important component to success for small teams. Torque 3D offers a path to every major platform out there (Windows, Mac, Web, Wii, Xbox 360, iPhone, with PS3 and PSP in the works).

Special purpose tools. - The road and river tools are just the beginning, but there's a lot more coming in 1.1 and 1.2 that you haven't seen before and which you definitely won't find in UDK.Community resources, add-ons, and extensions. This is such a talent-rich and generous community. We do our very best not to take your contributions for granted. Rather, a major focus, particularly on this website in the next year, will be adding features that make the surfacing, sharing, and vetting of community resources and project much easier and much more powerful. There's really a lot we can do here and you're going to see constant improvement.
Now, UDK has some things not currently in Torque in it's favor as well. Nice features like nav meshes for AI, improved animation tools, etc. are all on our roadmap, but not yet in Torque 3D, so we've still got plenty of work ahead of us to keep up and stay competitive.
We want to take Torque much further, allowing developers to unlock opportunities on the best emerging platforms. That's going to take continued work and investment in the product by us, but we run a pretty lean operation, we reinvest nearly every dollar you spend with us back into product development, and we are moving *super* fast.
'FREE' might just be the new SSAO
We realize that staying ahead of the curve on technology is just part of the equation. The licensing model we choose is important and we're paying attention to all this FREE stuff as much as the rest of you. We want to offer something at a very accessible price, or perhaps for FREE as a good entry to learning and using Torque 3D. Currently, our free option is a demo, limited by the number of objects you can place in your scene. This obviously isn't useful to create an entire game, but it does give you a good feel for what Torque 3D's tool set can do, given that it's not feature limited in any way other than not including the source code.
By comparison, UDK also gives you everything for free, no features limited by the free version other than the source code, but you cannot use it to make anything commercial without payment. The cost, at minimum, is $99 + 25% of your revenues (after $5k total). Unity strips a great deal of their features out of their free version. These can drastically handicap development for some teams, but there's no reason why you couldn't finish some games with it either. The license is liberal, so it's a good stepping stone to make your first game, solo, if you're willing to live with some of the feature limitations.

So where does Torque 3D fit in all of this? Our "Professional" version, which includes source code, access to beta builds, private forums, etc is just $1000 / seat. We don't currently have an option between this and our free demo, but we want one. I think the recent developments by Unity and Epic and all the new developers trying their hand at 3D games warrants a low-priced option for Torque 3D, as well.
At the end of September, when we released Torque 3D 1.0, I included a poll contemplating an full-featured, binary-only version of Torque 3D to go for $500 / seat. Though the results were overwhelmingly in favor of this option, I think we can do better. In the past, I've been really happy with the feedback you've given us making decisions like this, so I want to enlist your help again.
What should we do?
What would you be happy with?
What do you think would be best for the community the future of the product?
Do we want a more elite, experienced community of programmers here?
Do we want to create a more balanced mix of great artists too?
I have my instincts on these questions, and we've discussed them a great deal internally, but I've always come back to this community as one of the big reasons to choose Torque for a new developer. It's one of kind and I want to keep it together and help it grow as much as possible. That won't happen if we don't have a competitive offering in Torque. This means we need enough income to feed the developers and keep the product blazing ahead full speed. But at the same time, if every new beginner cuts their teeth on UDK or Unity because they have viable free option and Torque doesn't, well, I don't like the position that puts us in for the long run either.
So please, let us know what you think! I promise I'll listen and weigh all feedback carefully. I hope to make a decision on this by the end of the month, so let fly with the suggestions and opinions. It's all welcome.
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#62
Wow that's a very nice gesture to your harshest critic.
Was tabulating all the money I wasted and how many GG products I own that are worthless and low and behold.
"Torque 3D" was on the list. Never expected that.
Pretty sure I won't use it but thanks, I can do some real comparisons and dirt digging now.
11/13/2009 (3:46 am)
@BrettWow that's a very nice gesture to your harshest critic.
Was tabulating all the money I wasted and how many GG products I own that are worthless and low and behold.
"Torque 3D" was on the list. Never expected that.
Pretty sure I won't use it but thanks, I can do some real comparisons and dirt digging now.
#63
11/13/2009 (3:54 am)
@Brett - Quite honestly, T3D is pretty freaking sweet at this price. Not sure about a binary version for a lower price but I think that would be a decent offer and get some more folks doing work with it.
#64
While T3D is good (i do have pro license), it just has alot i miss for my project.
UDK has streaming terrain/maps (important for my project) and content packs.
UDK has better tools (i dont get how you could think yours is better, im sorry, but ive worked with both and the unreal editor just does everything), like material editor (awesome), kismet, metinee ect ect.
UDK can do real time per pixel lighting w/ ambient occlusion, if you want to talk lighting, not uberly good, but it works ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGt8CqJd91U ) at 1:02.
UDK comes with Lightmass global illumination, T3D you have to buy external lighting application(s).
UDK has BSP editing for whatever you would need it for.
UDK has a excellent scripting system.
Also, lets not forget UDK comes with Speedtree 5.0 integrated aswell.
Agree though, the unreal engine 3 renderer could use a upgrade, but i dont even see how you could compare a 1000$ engine to a 300-750k$ engine, even if its "without" source.
Maybe someday T3D will be up there, but its not yet.
11/13/2009 (4:11 am)
Unity has nothing on UDK, i can tell you that, and i dont care what anyone says.While T3D is good (i do have pro license), it just has alot i miss for my project.
UDK has streaming terrain/maps (important for my project) and content packs.
UDK has better tools (i dont get how you could think yours is better, im sorry, but ive worked with both and the unreal editor just does everything), like material editor (awesome), kismet, metinee ect ect.
UDK can do real time per pixel lighting w/ ambient occlusion, if you want to talk lighting, not uberly good, but it works ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGt8CqJd91U ) at 1:02.
UDK comes with Lightmass global illumination, T3D you have to buy external lighting application(s).
UDK has BSP editing for whatever you would need it for.
UDK has a excellent scripting system.
Also, lets not forget UDK comes with Speedtree 5.0 integrated aswell.
Agree though, the unreal engine 3 renderer could use a upgrade, but i dont even see how you could compare a 1000$ engine to a 300-750k$ engine, even if its "without" source.
Maybe someday T3D will be up there, but its not yet.
#65
I was a little shocked when I first found out T3D was going to be $1000. When I first found this site back in 2002, I dropped $100 immediately and was messing around with V12 source within the hour. I'm still just as excited when I visit the site today, I have the same exact feeling for T3D as I had for the Tribes 2 engine when I first came here. I just can't purchase it right away.
For me having source access is important. It's why I do this, to learn new ways to program and to be able to do test anything...from a new networking model to new physics engines to new rendering techniques. Learning a new language like UnrealScript is fun but ends up presenting frustrations when I find out I can't do something I'd really like to try. I'm in it for the programming experience. Nonetheless, I am messing around with it, there's a lot of high level power in UDK and regardless of whether or not the rendering technology is old, the results flat out look phenomenal.
Like others have said, if you can, make your own big title and don't spare anything on the graphics department. Eye candy wins people over quick, I know it's not a requirement and it may feel like a sellout, but it's not. Torque is powerful, has strong (and improving) tools, can make literally any game, and has an amazing community. Now you need to convince people that it can also look as good as the competition. Torque is built like a Spartan, now dress it up in a nice suit and it'll be unbeatable. All my buddies and colleagues who have heard of Torque always say the same thing, "all the games look alike", "you can't get away from that torque look". I know you can and I know that Torque3D can better than ever, you just need to prove it. And I apologize if any of the GG artist employees get offended by my post. You all do great work but when I opened up one of those levels in UDK, my jaw dropped...and it didn't drop like that when I opened the T3D demo. It was just so cohesive and detailed. Obviously they have a whole department just doing art direction, but it really pays off in terms of final sample product.
In the end, I am going to own Torque3D soon. There's nothing that compares. It's still the best priced, high quality, and full source engine out there. I just need to buffer up some resources for it. I don't care for a free version or lower priced version, unless it comes with full source...I won't buy anything less now that I've been spoiled :-) But of course, I'm just one side of the equation...
I do hope that someday PureLight will be built into Torque. From a tools perspective and from a licensing perspective. I realize there are legal and financial issues around it but I agree with what a lot of the other guys have said here...the tools need to be even more unified.
You guys are doing great, please keep pushing T3D!!
11/13/2009 (4:23 am)
I've said this before but I think it's good to reiterate. A lot of people are into this for a hobby which someday may turn into something more. I really enjoy making games and even though I program all day for work, somehow this is a very satisfying outlet. I was a little shocked when I first found out T3D was going to be $1000. When I first found this site back in 2002, I dropped $100 immediately and was messing around with V12 source within the hour. I'm still just as excited when I visit the site today, I have the same exact feeling for T3D as I had for the Tribes 2 engine when I first came here. I just can't purchase it right away.
For me having source access is important. It's why I do this, to learn new ways to program and to be able to do test anything...from a new networking model to new physics engines to new rendering techniques. Learning a new language like UnrealScript is fun but ends up presenting frustrations when I find out I can't do something I'd really like to try. I'm in it for the programming experience. Nonetheless, I am messing around with it, there's a lot of high level power in UDK and regardless of whether or not the rendering technology is old, the results flat out look phenomenal.
Like others have said, if you can, make your own big title and don't spare anything on the graphics department. Eye candy wins people over quick, I know it's not a requirement and it may feel like a sellout, but it's not. Torque is powerful, has strong (and improving) tools, can make literally any game, and has an amazing community. Now you need to convince people that it can also look as good as the competition. Torque is built like a Spartan, now dress it up in a nice suit and it'll be unbeatable. All my buddies and colleagues who have heard of Torque always say the same thing, "all the games look alike", "you can't get away from that torque look". I know you can and I know that Torque3D can better than ever, you just need to prove it. And I apologize if any of the GG artist employees get offended by my post. You all do great work but when I opened up one of those levels in UDK, my jaw dropped...and it didn't drop like that when I opened the T3D demo. It was just so cohesive and detailed. Obviously they have a whole department just doing art direction, but it really pays off in terms of final sample product.
In the end, I am going to own Torque3D soon. There's nothing that compares. It's still the best priced, high quality, and full source engine out there. I just need to buffer up some resources for it. I don't care for a free version or lower priced version, unless it comes with full source...I won't buy anything less now that I've been spoiled :-) But of course, I'm just one side of the equation...
I do hope that someday PureLight will be built into Torque. From a tools perspective and from a licensing perspective. I realize there are legal and financial issues around it but I agree with what a lot of the other guys have said here...the tools need to be even more unified.
You guys are doing great, please keep pushing T3D!!
#66
$1000 is a fair price when you look at it as someone with a team behind them working to bring a game together. But as an indie/hobbyis $1000 is a bit ridiculous and overpriced, especially with your history of pricing models. Releasing engine fixes as new 1.x versions and charging for them.
I have to agree with many posters, T3D may be capable of a lot, but I've never actually seen anything spectacular done, it's different to say something than to show it off. If it's your baby you should treat it like one, not just throw it in a corner and feed it when it cries.
Somebody mentioned the great support here, I've never really seen any support, unless you mean the paid support option up top. Most questions remain unanswered in the forums until another community member chimes in with an attempt at a fix.
I remember reading a post about Theora in TGEA where a community member proposed a fix that only fixed the video, when someone at GG finally answered a post about Theora support, they said it propably wont' be fixed because a community member already proposed a fix. That's just unacceptable to take that kind of attitude towards something that was halfway implemented and wasn't super important. If you guys can't figure something out, own up to it and remove it from the features list until you can.
I've been most upset about your decision to remove TGEA, I understand the removal of TGE as it was very old and it was showing bad. But TGEA would be more acceptable to the hobbyist, granted it might not be as easy to use in some aspects, it was affordable. That along with so many resources available for TGE/A already in the community, I think it would be a better introduction for indies than jumping into something that isn't completed and doesn't have near the amount of documentation and resources as TGE/A.
T3D is exciting, just not ideal to a lot of people right now.
Edit: Need to correct myself on the TGEA Theora issue, No proper video support was my main reason for not upgrading to TGEA all these years, then it appears a month before TGEA was going to no longer be available you guys released 1.8.2 which fixes this issue, though by reading it it seems it only fixed the video issue and not the Theora audio issue.
11/13/2009 (5:02 am)
A lot of good posts here, and I have to agree with what a person or two has said here and what has been said a few times in the forums. But it seems that GarageGames is moving away from the Indie population with how they are moving forward.$1000 is a fair price when you look at it as someone with a team behind them working to bring a game together. But as an indie/hobbyis $1000 is a bit ridiculous and overpriced, especially with your history of pricing models. Releasing engine fixes as new 1.x versions and charging for them.
I have to agree with many posters, T3D may be capable of a lot, but I've never actually seen anything spectacular done, it's different to say something than to show it off. If it's your baby you should treat it like one, not just throw it in a corner and feed it when it cries.
Somebody mentioned the great support here, I've never really seen any support, unless you mean the paid support option up top. Most questions remain unanswered in the forums until another community member chimes in with an attempt at a fix.
I remember reading a post about Theora in TGEA where a community member proposed a fix that only fixed the video, when someone at GG finally answered a post about Theora support, they said it propably wont' be fixed because a community member already proposed a fix. That's just unacceptable to take that kind of attitude towards something that was halfway implemented and wasn't super important. If you guys can't figure something out, own up to it and remove it from the features list until you can.
I've been most upset about your decision to remove TGEA, I understand the removal of TGE as it was very old and it was showing bad. But TGEA would be more acceptable to the hobbyist, granted it might not be as easy to use in some aspects, it was affordable. That along with so many resources available for TGE/A already in the community, I think it would be a better introduction for indies than jumping into something that isn't completed and doesn't have near the amount of documentation and resources as TGE/A.
T3D is exciting, just not ideal to a lot of people right now.
Edit: Need to correct myself on the TGEA Theora issue, No proper video support was my main reason for not upgrading to TGEA all these years, then it appears a month before TGEA was going to no longer be available you guys released 1.8.2 which fixes this issue, though by reading it it seems it only fixed the video issue and not the Theora audio issue.
#67
11/13/2009 (5:24 am)
I believe a solid demo will most likely help out T3D. Sounds like a lot of work is being held in that department till the Pacific Demo is ready to go. The demos that are out there now show a bit of what can be done with Pure Light, but if you start to go into anything else there really are lack of examples or poor examples (the AL settings in the desert zone aren't even setup properly and the same goes for the PhysX zones, at least they were in 1.0). Having been using the tools there are still a few issues to get resolved (mainly some visual issues with the shadows at certain distances). Check out some of the screenshots people have been putting up that actually have been using T3D and are putting in custom work and assets into the engine for a better example. It sounds like 1.1 should hopefully solve a lot of these issues as things should be ready to roll in quite a few of these areas.
#68
Let's say you have a customer base of 100 people 20 of which can afford it at $1000. that nets you $20,000. Great deal. Now lower the price of the engine to 500 and twice as many people can afford it, netting you the same amount. Also you have a bigger community, which from my experience the past few years, are the most helpful people in terms of fixing problems anyways.
What you also get with a lower cost is the fly by night people who want to make the next World of Warcraft. Those are the people who drop the cash, realize how hard it will be and move on, leaving you with their precious cash. Therefore netting you more money in the end.
Look at Wal-mart, one of the most successful companies in the world. They sell cheaper than competitors can afford to, therefore making themselves a tyrant in the industry.
Granted a lower price does give you those fly by nighters looking for the MMO button. And they flood the forums with questions, from what I've seen since I've been a part of the community those questions get ignored anyways, so no harm done. Most of my forum searches end in 80% of what I click on having no response to a question.
Either way you're destined to make money, and I don't expect any posts here to influence you in any decisions, because let's face it, this is your job, and you should be paid for it. I just think there are other aspects to think of in the long run than just the upfront.
11/13/2009 (5:49 am)
One thing that just came to mind reguarding cost a lower price would make sense and here is why.Let's say you have a customer base of 100 people 20 of which can afford it at $1000. that nets you $20,000. Great deal. Now lower the price of the engine to 500 and twice as many people can afford it, netting you the same amount. Also you have a bigger community, which from my experience the past few years, are the most helpful people in terms of fixing problems anyways.
What you also get with a lower cost is the fly by night people who want to make the next World of Warcraft. Those are the people who drop the cash, realize how hard it will be and move on, leaving you with their precious cash. Therefore netting you more money in the end.
Look at Wal-mart, one of the most successful companies in the world. They sell cheaper than competitors can afford to, therefore making themselves a tyrant in the industry.
Granted a lower price does give you those fly by nighters looking for the MMO button. And they flood the forums with questions, from what I've seen since I've been a part of the community those questions get ignored anyways, so no harm done. Most of my forum searches end in 80% of what I click on having no response to a question.
Either way you're destined to make money, and I don't expect any posts here to influence you in any decisions, because let's face it, this is your job, and you should be paid for it. I just think there are other aspects to think of in the long run than just the upfront.
#69
This is kinda off topic, but would still be cool. How about getting the torque toolbox to be able to manage resources, as in you can navigate the resources on the site and they get downloaded into
11/13/2009 (6:09 am)
What I think would benefit the torque community, would be to have a free version of the game engine that will go under the same license as the current pro version i.e. no more that 250k p.a. and no source access.This is kinda off topic, but would still be cool. How about getting the torque toolbox to be able to manage resources, as in you can navigate the resources on the site and they get downloaded into
.\Torque3D\resources\along with install instructions. I think making things just a tiny little bit more convenient, in every aspect would help in seeing the GG community grow. (plus you would attract all the newer game developers if you had a "shiny" toolbox that could do all of the things that are usually just that little bit more painful than they need to be).
#70
11/13/2009 (6:52 am)
I don't really understand why this needed to be blogged but I guess I have been around long enough to know that if Epic was giving it away for free that it didn't include source or the license was so restrictive that it would only be a benefit to learn with, not create a commercial product. Anyway I'm glad to see Torque is looking stronger than ever after my brief time away from everything. which is not entirely over. I will be back lurking a lot more in a month or just after X-mas.
#71
Is very SAD see tons of usefull comments and resouces falling forgotten with time, because of the fault of proper tools in the forums. There is a lot of not answered questions, but a lot of them isn't, because the question was answered before.
And other inexplicable problem that I think that happens is, WHY a high level top quality team of programmers that can do a full engine code, can't provide a lot of simple examples scenes to the community (most of then can be done super quickly)? And these would support beginners to earn money back from the use of the torque 3d engine providing directed examples like, rpg simple game setup, rts simple game setup, showcase of objects example, fligh simulator mode, simulation example, every example don't need to be super complex and complete, only with the initial idea to possibility a beginner to continue from this stage, and these examples can be used as reference for other persons that want to help in the forums or want to provide a resouce to improve these examples.
For the documentation, there is a RTS tutorial, why not a rpg tutorial, and a race tutorial with checkpoints, why not a showcase tutorial, simulation tutorial, a lot of possible interested market that Torque 3D can win the attention only providing simple samples of what it can do.
So summarizing:
- Better forum system (new sections for each engine, better search,less bugs...)
- New resouce and tutorial system
- LOT OF EXAMPLES AND SAMPLES (if a programmer test some code and result in a simple sample that can help the community release this!)
this will help to find bugs and to direct the development of the engine.
- Take care of the valuable information of your community, if it's one of the Torque 3D positive point, give attetion for the waste of usefull help that the community provide because of the actual communication systems.
A lot of other things that can be improved but i don't need to repeat here as a lot of other users commented, and of course there is a lot of positive points that was also commented, so i will include only what i think that could be done to improve the experience with Torque 3D.
11/13/2009 (7:41 am)
I think in order to improve a lot the Torque 3D image in the community would be needed a Better resource manager, a usefull and working tutorial section, a better forum system, it's a shame the way that it works at the moment, I hope to be only me (but probably isn't) to have this kind of problem, but is a PAIN to use the search function in the forum.Is very SAD see tons of usefull comments and resouces falling forgotten with time, because of the fault of proper tools in the forums. There is a lot of not answered questions, but a lot of them isn't, because the question was answered before.
And other inexplicable problem that I think that happens is, WHY a high level top quality team of programmers that can do a full engine code, can't provide a lot of simple examples scenes to the community (most of then can be done super quickly)? And these would support beginners to earn money back from the use of the torque 3d engine providing directed examples like, rpg simple game setup, rts simple game setup, showcase of objects example, fligh simulator mode, simulation example, every example don't need to be super complex and complete, only with the initial idea to possibility a beginner to continue from this stage, and these examples can be used as reference for other persons that want to help in the forums or want to provide a resouce to improve these examples.
For the documentation, there is a RTS tutorial, why not a rpg tutorial, and a race tutorial with checkpoints, why not a showcase tutorial, simulation tutorial, a lot of possible interested market that Torque 3D can win the attention only providing simple samples of what it can do.
So summarizing:
- Better forum system (new sections for each engine, better search,less bugs...)
- New resouce and tutorial system
- LOT OF EXAMPLES AND SAMPLES (if a programmer test some code and result in a simple sample that can help the community release this!)
this will help to find bugs and to direct the development of the engine.
- Take care of the valuable information of your community, if it's one of the Torque 3D positive point, give attetion for the waste of usefull help that the community provide because of the actual communication systems.
A lot of other things that can be improved but i don't need to repeat here as a lot of other users commented, and of course there is a lot of positive points that was also commented, so i will include only what i think that could be done to improve the experience with Torque 3D.
#72
@Brett - I agree with what most are saying here and seems to be a common theme:
- Lower entry point for artists (I'd add designers/mappers in here too) but basically anyone that doesn't require source access.
As for the future of Torque 3D, it's come along huge leaps and bounds and I'm very impressed with what i've had chance to play with so far but for the next iterations I'd like to see:
- Documentation - gotta say for all the work this is still the weakness, especially on the engine side we're 6wks after launch and although Mich says 10 new Html pages were created this week it appeared 6 of them were written by someone else, appear to be lagging behind and with Torque 2D in the works plus 1.1 versions of Torque 3d I can see many areas ending up with gaps or waiting another 6-12 months for a complete set.
I'd love to see a good engine API reference, not as an afterthought but whilst developing files add doxygen comments, descriptions to each new function & variable added so I don't have to dig through hundreds of lines of C++ to find what a particular function does.
There are around 700-800 header files in the engine and would take about a week to hit them for say 5 coders to run through and put basic documentation in for all the known functions and placeholders with todo comment for things that need deeper investigation.
- Roadmap - We're talking about 1.1 and 1.2 now but for most we've no idea what's planned for releases and details that are mentioned get lost on forum posts, blogs, etc that people either can't remember or miss completely.
- Scripting - As a longer term future would love either a different language or options to use something else, perhaps python, c#, lua, etc - they're more powerful, have more features, faster and have a lot more documentation and knowledge available. Would be a huge win in my book.
- Examples & Tutorials - Comes back somewhat to documentation but with productivity in mind, don't wait for Mich to have time but instead use the Associates or offer an incentive to some community members i.e. associate status, free upgrade or content pack, etc to create some starter kits/tutorials or even resources for missing areas.
Have a look at the 3D platformer tutorial for Unity it's a great example of what I'd love to see and you could utilize the community here to help build that stuff. It has benefits like:
- Fast prototyping - I can just pick up and use the base kits to start from whether it's an FPS, RPG, Racer, Puzzle, RTS, etc.
- Proven Fact - It's not just words on a marketting page that you can create any type of game with Torque there are actual starting points for people to use.
- Better Learning - People learn in different ways (Reflectors, pragmatists, activists, etc) and whilst we all generally come out as a mixture of things it's the pragmatist/activist elements that come out as most common, basically we want to get our hands dirty and try things out (no surprise why 90% of people never read the manual and just want to play)... Tutorials and starter kits are a much better way to nuture that tendancy than 600 pages of a book/documentation.
ok need a coffee so enough of a brain dump for now :)
11/13/2009 (7:43 am)
@Brandon - Thanks for the link to that forum it'll be a help, I need to understand normal maps, specular, etc better.@Brett - I agree with what most are saying here and seems to be a common theme:
- Lower entry point for artists (I'd add designers/mappers in here too) but basically anyone that doesn't require source access.
As for the future of Torque 3D, it's come along huge leaps and bounds and I'm very impressed with what i've had chance to play with so far but for the next iterations I'd like to see:
- Documentation - gotta say for all the work this is still the weakness, especially on the engine side we're 6wks after launch and although Mich says 10 new Html pages were created this week it appeared 6 of them were written by someone else, appear to be lagging behind and with Torque 2D in the works plus 1.1 versions of Torque 3d I can see many areas ending up with gaps or waiting another 6-12 months for a complete set.
I'd love to see a good engine API reference, not as an afterthought but whilst developing files add doxygen comments, descriptions to each new function & variable added so I don't have to dig through hundreds of lines of C++ to find what a particular function does.
There are around 700-800 header files in the engine and would take about a week to hit them for say 5 coders to run through and put basic documentation in for all the known functions and placeholders with todo comment for things that need deeper investigation.
- Roadmap - We're talking about 1.1 and 1.2 now but for most we've no idea what's planned for releases and details that are mentioned get lost on forum posts, blogs, etc that people either can't remember or miss completely.
- Scripting - As a longer term future would love either a different language or options to use something else, perhaps python, c#, lua, etc - they're more powerful, have more features, faster and have a lot more documentation and knowledge available. Would be a huge win in my book.
- Examples & Tutorials - Comes back somewhat to documentation but with productivity in mind, don't wait for Mich to have time but instead use the Associates or offer an incentive to some community members i.e. associate status, free upgrade or content pack, etc to create some starter kits/tutorials or even resources for missing areas.
Have a look at the 3D platformer tutorial for Unity it's a great example of what I'd love to see and you could utilize the community here to help build that stuff. It has benefits like:
- Fast prototyping - I can just pick up and use the base kits to start from whether it's an FPS, RPG, Racer, Puzzle, RTS, etc.
- Proven Fact - It's not just words on a marketting page that you can create any type of game with Torque there are actual starting points for people to use.
- Better Learning - People learn in different ways (Reflectors, pragmatists, activists, etc) and whilst we all generally come out as a mixture of things it's the pragmatist/activist elements that come out as most common, basically we want to get our hands dirty and try things out (no surprise why 90% of people never read the manual and just want to play)... Tutorials and starter kits are a much better way to nuture that tendancy than 600 pages of a book/documentation.
ok need a coffee so enough of a brain dump for now :)
#73
Sorry, I will continue to use and support T3D and there products but I'm definitly a UDK fan through and through. Just my 2-cents. :)
11/13/2009 (7:51 am)
Let's be fair. Torque has come a long way and it's a great engine. The documentation and community support is great, the best I've ever seen for a product. I do wish the scripting was a bit easier. UDK's scripting is a lot easier to learn. I've been using it about a week now and have already wrote several scripts with minimal effort. I've had Torque since TGEA and have just started learning how to write script. I think lighting and shadows are better in UDK. Materials are also superior in UDK. And lets face it when most companies ask they wanna know if you can use the Unreal Engine.Sorry, I will continue to use and support T3D and there products but I'm definitly a UDK fan through and through. Just my 2-cents. :)
#74
- Pet Hate Process (Continual Improvement Process for perhaps a better name) - for any product there should be 2 different sides considered when looking at features both interal (what direction we want to go in, what's best for us, what's more marketable and bring in more cash) and consumer (what do our customers want).
This kind of process helps formalize the latter a bit more, basically like the "what do you want to see addressed in Torque 3D" thread where a lot of input was canvassed you start by collecting a list of areas people would like changing.
That's then put to a poll where every that's licensed can vote (I say only licensed people as I see new customers as a seperate poll) and the results then drive what are the most important things to change, based on hard facts rather than "gut-feel" from responses on conversations, forums, irc, etc.
Then if you're brave enough, post go-live another review of whether you succeeded - it's a hard thing to do as you'll never please everyone but it's a good way of measuring whether you're delivering on most peoples expectations or if not what changes/learnings you need to take internally to help ensure you do deliver next time around (no ones perfect and we all need feedback to help improve).
11/13/2009 (8:01 am)
ooooo coffee is great, thought of another one- Pet Hate Process (Continual Improvement Process for perhaps a better name) - for any product there should be 2 different sides considered when looking at features both interal (what direction we want to go in, what's best for us, what's more marketable and bring in more cash) and consumer (what do our customers want).
This kind of process helps formalize the latter a bit more, basically like the "what do you want to see addressed in Torque 3D" thread where a lot of input was canvassed you start by collecting a list of areas people would like changing.
That's then put to a poll where every that's licensed can vote (I say only licensed people as I see new customers as a seperate poll) and the results then drive what are the most important things to change, based on hard facts rather than "gut-feel" from responses on conversations, forums, irc, etc.
Then if you're brave enough, post go-live another review of whether you succeeded - it's a hard thing to do as you'll never please everyone but it's a good way of measuring whether you're delivering on most peoples expectations or if not what changes/learnings you need to take internally to help ensure you do deliver next time around (no ones perfect and we all need feedback to help improve).
#75
Plus, what can We (the community) do to help you (GarageGames)?
I'll highlight that because mostly here we're take, take, take and as people want more they should expect to give more either via more money or by offering their skills.
Let's face it stronger community means more people attracted to Torque, more people means more games and add-on packs, meaning more people involved with the community, pulling in more licensees, meaning more cash to GG, meaning more for them to invest, meaning better products for us, better products will attract more people, etc, etc.
Way I see it this is a partnership - so what can we do to improve things?
Personally I've never really seen much of the point in the Associates tag apart from recognising that they did something or released something of benefit for the community.... in many cases that doesn't seem to then transcend into anything more, some are great ambassadors and really shine as leads in the community - I'll pick OmegaDog out as an example here, constantly see him offering help and support.
Others (and I won't name names) I see arguing, not being so helpful or offering short comments/remarks where they could possibly expand further to be more help to people.
We appear to have a mixture of people some who seem to have the tag for just releasing a product/addon and do little for the community in general and others who are really community focused offering up their free time for support and helping others.
I'd like to see them doing more to help the community and build it up more - or perhaps that's a seperate roll to an associate like I said never really understood the tag.
11/13/2009 (8:31 am)
Ok and another (promise I'll shutup after this) - I've heard many people say that community here is a great asset (not been a member of other game dev communities to comment on them) but if it's the case how do we nurture and improve it??Plus, what can We (the community) do to help you (GarageGames)?
I'll highlight that because mostly here we're take, take, take and as people want more they should expect to give more either via more money or by offering their skills.
Let's face it stronger community means more people attracted to Torque, more people means more games and add-on packs, meaning more people involved with the community, pulling in more licensees, meaning more cash to GG, meaning more for them to invest, meaning better products for us, better products will attract more people, etc, etc.
Way I see it this is a partnership - so what can we do to improve things?
Personally I've never really seen much of the point in the Associates tag apart from recognising that they did something or released something of benefit for the community.... in many cases that doesn't seem to then transcend into anything more, some are great ambassadors and really shine as leads in the community - I'll pick OmegaDog out as an example here, constantly see him offering help and support.
Others (and I won't name names) I see arguing, not being so helpful or offering short comments/remarks where they could possibly expand further to be more help to people.
We appear to have a mixture of people some who seem to have the tag for just releasing a product/addon and do little for the community in general and others who are really community focused offering up their free time for support and helping others.
I'd like to see them doing more to help the community and build it up more - or perhaps that's a seperate roll to an associate like I said never really understood the tag.
#76
Not only that, but in a later post, the responsible supported his insult!!
??? David...?
11/13/2009 (8:40 am)
Little times here at GG community, I've seen 'naming calling' in forums or blog posts, and I'm kind of stumped at why its beeing let in this case. I've seen comments sniped for much less than this bold case.Not only that, but in a later post, the responsible supported his insult!!
??? David...?
#77
11/13/2009 (8:48 am)
All the "game engine" forums are in turmoil these days, with the price cuts, new entries etc and everyone p**ing in everyone else's pool. The "mine is bigger than yours" syndrome will fade and then we can get back to writing games. I still think it's all for the best though (would be better if Autodesk got in on the act too)....
#78
i dont want you to think im a heater but enyone read this without really testing all above engines will say : wow T3D is the best engine in the world .
will ofcourse you didn't mention T3D real time shadows flaws and you know them specily the point light one , second thing T3D is not the first engine with deferred lightning system there is Leadwerks Engine 2 with 150$ for the soruce code (i have it too) and it have it way before T3D was out , there is esenthal witch is more powerfull render than T3D with the same tec and with 150$ you can have it with sorcue code .
another thing UDK can have more than one light casting dynamic shadows in the scene i konw it bc i test it ,
i really love T3D and it's team but tring to make it better than UDK in all ways is just worng , i think your more like advertising it ..
any way please dont hate me :) and point me if im wrong :)
PS : sorry about my really bad english xD
11/13/2009 (8:52 am)
Hii dont want you to think im a heater but enyone read this without really testing all above engines will say : wow T3D is the best engine in the world .
will ofcourse you didn't mention T3D real time shadows flaws and you know them specily the point light one , second thing T3D is not the first engine with deferred lightning system there is Leadwerks Engine 2 with 150$ for the soruce code (i have it too) and it have it way before T3D was out , there is esenthal witch is more powerfull render than T3D with the same tec and with 150$ you can have it with sorcue code .
another thing UDK can have more than one light casting dynamic shadows in the scene i konw it bc i test it ,
i really love T3D and it's team but tring to make it better than UDK in all ways is just worng , i think your more like advertising it ..
any way please dont hate me :) and point me if im wrong :)
PS : sorry about my really bad english xD
#79
I'm fine with a $500 "artist" version.
One big thing about UDK versus Torque is the features in each. To my knowledge Epic just adds whatever features it feels like adding and says "here you go." GarageGames on the other hand, asks what features you want and what needs fixed.
Brett's blogs should be included in the torque newsletter!
As others have already posted, documentation is the key to draw in users and keep them. I don't know if this is being done yet, but it would be nice if offline docs could check to see if there are doc updates.
Thanks and keep up the good work!
11/13/2009 (9:26 am)
My 2 Cents:I'm fine with a $500 "artist" version.
One big thing about UDK versus Torque is the features in each. To my knowledge Epic just adds whatever features it feels like adding and says "here you go." GarageGames on the other hand, asks what features you want and what needs fixed.
Brett's blogs should be included in the torque newsletter!
As others have already posted, documentation is the key to draw in users and keep them. I don't know if this is being done yet, but it would be nice if offline docs could check to see if there are doc updates.
Thanks and keep up the good work!
#80
As I have already said in other places, an artist (binary)only edition at 300$ would be the right option for small teams.
I also think that a full fledged AAA engine, shouldn't have to rely on an external static light/shadowmapper utility. pureLIGHT should be internal and sold with the engine.
For everything else I think you made a really great engine!!
By the way: BSP is obsolete and is mantained in UE3 only for historycal reasons. Most maps on UT3 are not BSP based. A nice additions to zones and portal to T3D would be occlusion blocks: low poly invisible meshes that occlude everyting is behind
Bye
11/13/2009 (10:05 am)
My 2cents.As I have already said in other places, an artist (binary)only edition at 300$ would be the right option for small teams.
I also think that a full fledged AAA engine, shouldn't have to rely on an external static light/shadowmapper utility. pureLIGHT should be internal and sold with the engine.
For everything else I think you made a really great engine!!
By the way: BSP is obsolete and is mantained in UE3 only for historycal reasons. Most maps on UT3 are not BSP based. A nice additions to zones and portal to T3D would be occlusion blocks: low poly invisible meshes that occlude everyting is behind
Bye

Torque 3D Owner Paul Mason