The New Magic Word
by Brett Seyler · 11/12/2009 (4:02 pm) · 289 comments
Last week, Epic Games made a pretty big splash announcing the "UDK" or Unreal Development Kit. UDK is based on the *very expensive* Unreal Engine 3, the most dominant game engine in the big budget console games space. There's been a lot of hyperbolic talk about how this is an "end of days" development for Torque and our friendly Copenhagen competitors, Unity. I want to take a while here to talk about what I think this means for Torque and where we fit in the competitive landscape.When the announcement showed up, of course I immediately wanted to dig in and find out what was up. I took some time and looked at the license on the UDK site. Many people here downloaded the UDK to play around with it and see what was what. It turns out that the UDK is basically an up to date set of editors for Unreal Engine 3. There's no source code provided. Instead, as with modding, you can do scripting with Epic's Unrealscript. You can package your project for Windows only. There are docs online, but otherwise no dedicated support. So let's be clear. This is NOT Unreal Engine 3. That would kill a huge source of revenue (supported, source code licensing for PC and consoles) for Epic. It *is* a well-tested, rich set of editors for making stuff based on UE3 games or projects.
What's the license like for this? Well, Epic is slapping up the word FREE everywhere and who doesn't love something for FREE right? It's a magic word. The UDK website grants you (for free) a license to make non-commercial works. If you want to make money, or benefit indirectly somehow from using the UDK (think making a demo to advertise or sell something else or a company who wants to train employees with a simulation), you have to pay. The terms of making something commercial with the UDK are actually a bit murky because Epic does not post the license on their site or allow you to purchase a commercial license on thier site. Instead, they give you an email address to hit up and describe the terms of the license structure.
Option A: You benefit (somehow) from using and distributing UDK projects, but there's no revenue. You can pay $2500 / seat annually for this use of the UDK.
Option B: You sell, advertise on, or somehow directly or indirectly, generate revenue from a project made with UDK. You pay $99 up front and you give up 25% of all revenues exceeding $5000 on that project.
Pretty straightforward options! It would be nice to see the license, but assuming it's reasonable, sounds like a pretty fair deal. So what's the catch? How does Epic make money from this? They don't. Not really. This is a loss leader and an evangelism play and it really doesn't cost them much of anything to do. For years you've been able to spend $60 on Unreal Tournament, Gears of War, or other Unreal titles and use the provided editors to modify the game. You can do a lot with mods and people have created really cool stuff. Epic never monetized this practice before. Instead, they used it as a way to create longer tail sales for their games and to recruit new talent from the modder community. By offering the "UDK," Epic is taking the next step by letting people distribute Unreal mods without requiring ownership of the modded Unreal game. In addition to formalizing what they've always done with the mod communities built around Unreal, Epic is likely to heavily monetize the inevitable step from UDK --> UE3. This is no small step and it will cost small teams as much as Epic can wring out of them, in addition to the 25% royalties they are already on the hook for. My guess is that it will be case by case, but it's guaranteed that most teams will run into barriers not having access to the engine source, just as they do with other binary-only engines.
I'm not going to dismiss this move by Epic. It matters. Here's why...
#1: It's Epic (no pun intended). They are an absolute behemoth in the games industry. They've absolutely demolished all competitors in the AAA console engine space for the last 5 years, essentially since EA acquired Criterion, makers of Renderware, and stopped licensing it to 3rd parties. They have an established business selling very expensive (think 6-7 figures, depending on the royalty rate) licenses for big budget console games and now, they've decided they want indies, amateurs, and hobbyists to use their product too. That's a pretty decent market disturbance.
#2: It's validation. When I wrote about the hyper-competitive, well-served big budget AAA space while discussing the pricing and licensing of Torque 3D back in January, I noted that the AAA middleware market hasn't grown much in the last decade and it continues to be a pretty fixed size market. At the same time, the space Torque and Unity occupy (better accessibility and opportunity via lower licensing costs and more attractive platforms) has grown tremendously. This community here grows by hundreds of users every week. A larger portion of the games industry as a whole is moving away from stagnant AAA console games and targeting super-fast growing platforms like the iPhone, Facebook, and yes, even just regular PC online games. Clearly Epic must see something they like in these markets. They missed the boat on the Wii and they are probably struggling to maintain (let alone grow) revenues in the AAA console space. I'm not sure if this will be a long-lasting commitment on Epic's part, or simply a way to maximize the value of their current tech while the new stuff (UE4) is what they're going to start pushing to high-end clients, right around the corner. Regardless, validation is nice.
#3: Now everyone can see behind the "AAA" curtain. We've been telling you for years that Torque is top-notch technology. We've said "it's documented up to, and in many cases well beyond the industry standard." Without being able to look at engines like Unreal, that's been a hard claim for you guys to verify. Now you can. Have a look at UDK. Look at the tools. Look at the docs. Test out the support. We think you'll find that Torque 3D stacks up very well in comparison, and all without the licensing burden of big royalties or high-cost access to source. Putting aside source though, it's worth answering the question:
What does Torque currently do better than Unreal?
Rendering - Torque is the first affordable engine with a deferred renderer. You have real-time dynamic lighting and shadows. You can have thousands of dynamic point lights in a scene at almost no hit to performance. You can't do this in Unreal. Torque's Light Pre-pass rendering is the standard for the current era of hardware. CryEngine uses it as do many of the best looking games on the market.

Contrast this with Unreal, which uses a years old forward renderer that does not allow for global dynamic lighting or shadows. In fact, UE3 does not support more than one dynamic light casting shadows on the same object. It will switch shadows automatically to the nearest light. A directional light will allways switch off any light's shadows. With Unreal, all global illumination is baked. Everything you can do in Unreal, you can do with pureLIGHT in Torque 3D, but with Torque, you can combine dynamic global lighting and shadows with beautfully baked static lightmaps that give you realtime iterative results, not an hours long, black box baking process. Looking ahead, we'll probably be the first affordable engine with DX11 support, and I doubt you're going to see that from Unreal until UE4, likely a couple years away from public licensing, at least.
Terrain (editing AND fidelity) - Definitely test out the UDK terrain editors next to Torque 3D's. The UDK terrain tools are several generations behind us. In Torque 3D, you get much nicer terrain fidelity as well. It takes the right artwork to show this (which you'll see with Pacific Demo here in a few weeks), but the advantage for Torque is clear.

Networking - Out of the box, Torque 3D will do things that you'll never get UDK to do without source code access and a LOT of work. It's as simple as that.
Platform support - Capable deployment to OSX machines is increasing a very important component to success for small teams. Torque 3D offers a path to every major platform out there (Windows, Mac, Web, Wii, Xbox 360, iPhone, with PS3 and PSP in the works).

Special purpose tools. - The road and river tools are just the beginning, but there's a lot more coming in 1.1 and 1.2 that you haven't seen before and which you definitely won't find in UDK.Community resources, add-ons, and extensions. This is such a talent-rich and generous community. We do our very best not to take your contributions for granted. Rather, a major focus, particularly on this website in the next year, will be adding features that make the surfacing, sharing, and vetting of community resources and project much easier and much more powerful. There's really a lot we can do here and you're going to see constant improvement.
Now, UDK has some things not currently in Torque in it's favor as well. Nice features like nav meshes for AI, improved animation tools, etc. are all on our roadmap, but not yet in Torque 3D, so we've still got plenty of work ahead of us to keep up and stay competitive.
We want to take Torque much further, allowing developers to unlock opportunities on the best emerging platforms. That's going to take continued work and investment in the product by us, but we run a pretty lean operation, we reinvest nearly every dollar you spend with us back into product development, and we are moving *super* fast.
'FREE' might just be the new SSAO
We realize that staying ahead of the curve on technology is just part of the equation. The licensing model we choose is important and we're paying attention to all this FREE stuff as much as the rest of you. We want to offer something at a very accessible price, or perhaps for FREE as a good entry to learning and using Torque 3D. Currently, our free option is a demo, limited by the number of objects you can place in your scene. This obviously isn't useful to create an entire game, but it does give you a good feel for what Torque 3D's tool set can do, given that it's not feature limited in any way other than not including the source code.
By comparison, UDK also gives you everything for free, no features limited by the free version other than the source code, but you cannot use it to make anything commercial without payment. The cost, at minimum, is $99 + 25% of your revenues (after $5k total). Unity strips a great deal of their features out of their free version. These can drastically handicap development for some teams, but there's no reason why you couldn't finish some games with it either. The license is liberal, so it's a good stepping stone to make your first game, solo, if you're willing to live with some of the feature limitations.

So where does Torque 3D fit in all of this? Our "Professional" version, which includes source code, access to beta builds, private forums, etc is just $1000 / seat. We don't currently have an option between this and our free demo, but we want one. I think the recent developments by Unity and Epic and all the new developers trying their hand at 3D games warrants a low-priced option for Torque 3D, as well.
At the end of September, when we released Torque 3D 1.0, I included a poll contemplating an full-featured, binary-only version of Torque 3D to go for $500 / seat. Though the results were overwhelmingly in favor of this option, I think we can do better. In the past, I've been really happy with the feedback you've given us making decisions like this, so I want to enlist your help again.
What should we do?
What would you be happy with?
What do you think would be best for the community the future of the product?
Do we want a more elite, experienced community of programmers here?
Do we want to create a more balanced mix of great artists too?
I have my instincts on these questions, and we've discussed them a great deal internally, but I've always come back to this community as one of the big reasons to choose Torque for a new developer. It's one of kind and I want to keep it together and help it grow as much as possible. That won't happen if we don't have a competitive offering in Torque. This means we need enough income to feed the developers and keep the product blazing ahead full speed. But at the same time, if every new beginner cuts their teeth on UDK or Unity because they have viable free option and Torque doesn't, well, I don't like the position that puts us in for the long run either.
So please, let us know what you think! I promise I'll listen and weigh all feedback carefully. I hope to make a decision on this by the end of the month, so let fly with the suggestions and opinions. It's all welcome.
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#42
It's not like I can change anything, and I know you guys won't, but I still did not support your decision to limit indies so badly.
11/12/2009 (10:57 pm)
Yea, no offense GG, but even though you keep saying that indies are willing to pay $1000 for a good engine? You're wrong. I know that's what you decided to do, and that's what your sticking with, but many indies will not be able to use all the tools you pack into that engine of yours due to the amount of power they have on their game. One single person can't make all the models for a game, put normal mapping on them, create the terrain, script every action, particle effects, level design, etc. without taking an extremely long time (believe me, 2 years in the making for my game and I only have a rough prototype).It's not like I can change anything, and I know you guys won't, but I still did not support your decision to limit indies so badly.
#43
I personally would have gone with UDK.
11/12/2009 (11:15 pm)
My guess is a lot have already invested in T3D like myself and will stay with T3D for that reason, would we have done so if the options coming available now were then?I personally would have gone with UDK.
#44
As for what GG needs/should/can do?
You aren't going to like my suggestion, but i'm going to make it anyway.
1. tgea Free for non commercial. Why? tgea is a great engine for older hardware. It's also a great engine for people to get "their feet wet" with torque engines. Torque Script is the same across all engines. If they want to sell a game, they need to upgrade to #2 or pro. (torque 3D)
2. Artists version. Just what you have planned. $300-$500.00 price range. Fully featured, no source access.
3. Pro version.
4. Team version. Here, the team leader (programming team) needs T3D pro. Plus, can purchase artist seats for 200-300 per seat. ( leader provides the binary and script folders to the team members) Keeps the price low enough for small teams, and still makes GG the money they need to continue developement.
That's my 1/16th cents worth.
11/12/2009 (11:52 pm)
Brett, this is the best blog you've done thus far. Bravo.As for what GG needs/should/can do?
You aren't going to like my suggestion, but i'm going to make it anyway.
1. tgea Free for non commercial. Why? tgea is a great engine for older hardware. It's also a great engine for people to get "their feet wet" with torque engines. Torque Script is the same across all engines. If they want to sell a game, they need to upgrade to #2 or pro. (torque 3D)
2. Artists version. Just what you have planned. $300-$500.00 price range. Fully featured, no source access.
3. Pro version.
4. Team version. Here, the team leader (programming team) needs T3D pro. Plus, can purchase artist seats for 200-300 per seat. ( leader provides the binary and script folders to the team members) Keeps the price low enough for small teams, and still makes GG the money they need to continue developement.
That's my 1/16th cents worth.
#45
11/13/2009 (1:34 am)
I am still not 100% sure about the art pipeline for UDK. It seems there are some resources out there for Blender to get it in the format, but I have seen some conflicting reports on how effecient that pipeline is and rather you can get everything you need to do a full model situated. Anyone done any more with the UDK than place existing or modified content? I would imagine that would be a big point if there isn't a low cost method to get your art in without pulling your hair out. Perhaps I am wrong, perhaps I am right?
#46
They have other options like torque X for smaller indie studios. I'm a professional game developer with a fully pro team making our own game after hours and still choose to go with TX2D rather then with TGEA for my first independent game because I wanted to keep the project small and manageable. $1000 isn't a crazy amount of money for a serious game developer and to be honest I don't think GG should encourage beginners and hobbyists to use T3D as it may be overwhelming. GG has other game engines that are more suited to the hobbiest. (even though bells and whistles are fun)
That being said if the business model was going to change I'd like to see it go to a subscription model. With a subscription model GG would have a content source of income and have more incentive to provide top notch support to long time subscribers. Right now the business model seams to lean toward acquisition when it could lean toward retention. This would allow GG to lower the initial cost of the engine. Different subscription models could ofter different support options. Long time subscribers could have the engine bugs and features they want fixed and implemented prioritized. You guys know your business better then me but its a suggestion.
I realize that I am probably on the more serious end of the community as many members are hobbyists and one man studios but if there was one thing I'd like to see GG improve in it would be visibility. There are bugs I would consider major in TX2D that have been around and known for a long time. I often find myself spending development time tracking these bugs down when I would like to be spending that time making my game. GG has made great leaps forward in the time I've been here and John K has drastically increased the visibility of the TX2D engine development and fixes. That being said GG may have its hands tied a bit when it comes to either improving current features or implementing new features as they need to acquire more customers or get existing customers to buy new engines in order to maintain profitability. A subscription model would put more emphasis on supporting existing indie developers who are too small to afford a full blown support contract.
I've been happy with GG so far. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to my next game.
Also as a side note one of the main reasons I think Unreal 3 looks better in many of the shots may have more to do with the art then the engine. (can't say without experimentation but something to think about) :)
11/13/2009 (2:08 am)
Maybe it is just me but I'd rather pay 1000 and have solid support then 100 and have less support. GG is a business the amount of money they make directly correlates to the amount of money they put into their product. They have other options like torque X for smaller indie studios. I'm a professional game developer with a fully pro team making our own game after hours and still choose to go with TX2D rather then with TGEA for my first independent game because I wanted to keep the project small and manageable. $1000 isn't a crazy amount of money for a serious game developer and to be honest I don't think GG should encourage beginners and hobbyists to use T3D as it may be overwhelming. GG has other game engines that are more suited to the hobbiest. (even though bells and whistles are fun)
That being said if the business model was going to change I'd like to see it go to a subscription model. With a subscription model GG would have a content source of income and have more incentive to provide top notch support to long time subscribers. Right now the business model seams to lean toward acquisition when it could lean toward retention. This would allow GG to lower the initial cost of the engine. Different subscription models could ofter different support options. Long time subscribers could have the engine bugs and features they want fixed and implemented prioritized. You guys know your business better then me but its a suggestion.
I realize that I am probably on the more serious end of the community as many members are hobbyists and one man studios but if there was one thing I'd like to see GG improve in it would be visibility. There are bugs I would consider major in TX2D that have been around and known for a long time. I often find myself spending development time tracking these bugs down when I would like to be spending that time making my game. GG has made great leaps forward in the time I've been here and John K has drastically increased the visibility of the TX2D engine development and fixes. That being said GG may have its hands tied a bit when it comes to either improving current features or implementing new features as they need to acquire more customers or get existing customers to buy new engines in order to maintain profitability. A subscription model would put more emphasis on supporting existing indie developers who are too small to afford a full blown support contract.
I've been happy with GG so far. I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt when it comes to my next game.
Also as a side note one of the main reasons I think Unreal 3 looks better in many of the shots may have more to do with the art then the engine. (can't say without experimentation but something to think about) :)
#47
So many things falsified.
If I were Epic I would just go ahead and sue you into the ground for such slander.
"This is NOT Unreal Engine 3."
And YOU ARE a moron.
11/13/2009 (2:24 am)
I can't even really comment on this post.So many things falsified.
If I were Epic I would just go ahead and sue you into the ground for such slander.
"This is NOT Unreal Engine 3."
And YOU ARE a moron.
#48
11/13/2009 (2:43 am)
@Jeremy: Name calling? Really? If I've falsified anything, I'd love to know what so I can correct it. If you're just trolling, I'll go on ignore comments like that. Thx.
#49
From an Artist standpoint (I make no claims to being a programmer), I think that UDK has the Leg up for Artists.
Mind you, I'm not talking about bringing in Models, and Rigged characters, that is no more fun with UDK as it is in Torque. Characters will always be a tough task for a non-technical artist to deal with, especially because artists (even at the same studio) never work the same way (Biped, Biped w/Custom Bones, Biped w/Splines & Point Helpers, Full Custom Rig, etc).
I think the big missing piece is still the lack of an internal BSP editor. I've used Unreal Ed for years, and being able to build out my BSP/CSG level, in Game, is unbeatable. Having to hop back and forth from Constructor to Torque is not optimal, especially if your whole level isn't an indoor level, because you are constantly tweaking your walls and floors sizes, and no one wants to keep saving out a file they know they are going to have to redo again and again.
I think bringing constructor into T3D essentially as another "editor", would help springboard T3D up another notch for Artists. (If I was a programmer, I would be all over making this)
Oh, and Brett's right, the Unreal Terrain editor is infuriating!
11/13/2009 (2:48 am)
Time to jump in the fray!From an Artist standpoint (I make no claims to being a programmer), I think that UDK has the Leg up for Artists.
Mind you, I'm not talking about bringing in Models, and Rigged characters, that is no more fun with UDK as it is in Torque. Characters will always be a tough task for a non-technical artist to deal with, especially because artists (even at the same studio) never work the same way (Biped, Biped w/Custom Bones, Biped w/Splines & Point Helpers, Full Custom Rig, etc).
I think the big missing piece is still the lack of an internal BSP editor. I've used Unreal Ed for years, and being able to build out my BSP/CSG level, in Game, is unbeatable. Having to hop back and forth from Constructor to Torque is not optimal, especially if your whole level isn't an indoor level, because you are constantly tweaking your walls and floors sizes, and no one wants to keep saving out a file they know they are going to have to redo again and again.
I think bringing constructor into T3D essentially as another "editor", would help springboard T3D up another notch for Artists. (If I was a programmer, I would be all over making this)
Oh, and Brett's right, the Unreal Terrain editor is infuriating!
#50
11/13/2009 (2:53 am)
@Stephen: I love UnrealEd for what it does. Though I do think Torque3D is moving away from BSP trees altogether. Interiors seem to be being phased out in favor of polysoup based DTS shapes. The old zone and portal systems that were the big advantage of DIFs can now be placed in the world editor and used on shapes.
#51
Ahh name calling, about as childish as your overall blog post.
Since we can't have a fair fight on the game engine battle field and have to resort to comments and falsified blog posts. I thought id stop by and join in.
I really shouldnt waste my time but I can go 1 by 1 down the list if you like.
#1 This is NOT Unreal Engine 3
Correct, its Unreal Engine 3.5 (new features, new lighting model)
#Bonus 1 Epic Games updates their engine as you can see.
GarageGames on the other hand adds some editors (that suck), 2 or 3 features to the renderer that was advertised before it was even in the engine (false advertising). Slaps a new 1.+ on the version and charges another $1000.
#Bonus 2 Plus, Epic Games, they actually make games. Their engine is AAA tested in markted games. Can't say that about Torque any more since GarageGames doesn't make games any more.
So if we want to slander each others products I can take a break from work to do so? :)
11/13/2009 (2:56 am)
@BrettAhh name calling, about as childish as your overall blog post.
Since we can't have a fair fight on the game engine battle field and have to resort to comments and falsified blog posts. I thought id stop by and join in.
I really shouldnt waste my time but I can go 1 by 1 down the list if you like.
#1 This is NOT Unreal Engine 3
Correct, its Unreal Engine 3.5 (new features, new lighting model)
#Bonus 1 Epic Games updates their engine as you can see.
GarageGames on the other hand adds some editors (that suck), 2 or 3 features to the renderer that was advertised before it was even in the engine (false advertising). Slaps a new 1.+ on the version and charges another $1000.
#Bonus 2 Plus, Epic Games, they actually make games. Their engine is AAA tested in markted games. Can't say that about Torque any more since GarageGames doesn't make games any more.
So if we want to slander each others products I can take a break from work to do so? :)
#52
11/13/2009 (3:02 am)
@Stephen: I think they are working on implementing some new portal options in 1.1 to at least get some better portal support for DTS objects. That being said, BSP objects (DIF) performs SOOOOO much slower in Torque it isn't really worth doing in some parts. More contained zones it works out ok, but in a more wide open area it just slaughters framerate.
#53
But you can't stop the ease of blocking in a level as quickly as you can with BSP shapes, corridors on the fly, and then filling it with DTS Shapes (prefabs in other apps).
And BSPs don't have to be subtractive, use them in an additive way, build Towers and Bunkers, having them in there is really nice because you can have your level designer come in and laydown the placement for the game, while your environment guys actually work on the art to either replace it, or add to it.
11/13/2009 (3:05 am)
@J.C. Smith: Agreed, and I loved the Polycoup interiors, it makes detailing a level much easier.But you can't stop the ease of blocking in a level as quickly as you can with BSP shapes, corridors on the fly, and then filling it with DTS Shapes (prefabs in other apps).
And BSPs don't have to be subtractive, use them in an additive way, build Towers and Bunkers, having them in there is really nice because you can have your level designer come in and laydown the placement for the game, while your environment guys actually work on the art to either replace it, or add to it.
#54
11/13/2009 (3:06 am)
Quote:Ahh name calling, about as childish as your overall blog post.Really? It looks as if you're the only one here being childish. Those who have objected to any points that Brett has raised have so far done it with less disdain than yourself. This kind of attitude doesn't help anybody - nor does name calling.
#55
Sorry about the double post!
11/13/2009 (3:12 am)
@Xerves: Thats a shame (the performance drop), just because nothing beats "in-game" editing, I mean thats what makes the other editors for T3D so attractive, rivers and roads on the fly, forests on the fly, it would be such a useful tool. You would then only have to step outside the engine for characters and textures (and if you use packs, it would be a one stop shop).Sorry about the double post!
#56
11/13/2009 (3:18 am)
Well it’s a good idea to have some kind of 3D editor built in for building World objects and buildings, things that are static and unanimated, things that possible have walkable physics applied to it. I thought it was a great idea a while ago for BSP style editor built into Torque it was one of the only things I ever liked about 3D game studio. Creating geometry right in the area it needs to be in saves HUGE amounts of time. I don’t see why something couldn't be worked into there but it would really have to be worth their time. I wonder how hard it would be to make something like this as a plug-in for T3D. I’m in my last year of College for Programming but I have to say I know very little about the structure of this new engine, but if someone get a project going like this I would want in on it for sure!
#57
At the end of the day, find an engine that realistically suits your requirements and budget and go for it. If you're aiming for anything other than 5 minute casual games you're looking at a long development so worrying about which tech is best, continually changing or looking forward to upcoming features (that may or may not arrive) will only hurt your game.
The approach I find best for any software project is to get the technical requirements and prototype them quickly with your top x products and see what comes out tops. After that you run with it and don't change anything unless you really have to. You aren't looking for the best product, you're looking for a product that will allow you to achieve what you want. Time to market is very important for casual games (i.e. produce lots of simple games quickly) so using something like UDK will hurt you because game throughput will suffer at the expense of looking good (which may not be recouped in more sales or a higher price)
Oh, and on the topic of cost - it's not unusual for indies or small studios to license single copies of a number of engines and tools (not the AAA cost an arm and a leg ones) to evaluate them. White papers, 3rd party opinion etc are no substitute for actually trying it yourself.
11/13/2009 (3:20 am)
Oh well, the crowd on the UDK forums don't have any issue with Brett's post so all is well (apart from the fact that it is the Unreal Engine, sans source).At the end of the day, find an engine that realistically suits your requirements and budget and go for it. If you're aiming for anything other than 5 minute casual games you're looking at a long development so worrying about which tech is best, continually changing or looking forward to upcoming features (that may or may not arrive) will only hurt your game.
The approach I find best for any software project is to get the technical requirements and prototype them quickly with your top x products and see what comes out tops. After that you run with it and don't change anything unless you really have to. You aren't looking for the best product, you're looking for a product that will allow you to achieve what you want. Time to market is very important for casual games (i.e. produce lots of simple games quickly) so using something like UDK will hurt you because game throughput will suffer at the expense of looking good (which may not be recouped in more sales or a higher price)
Oh, and on the topic of cost - it's not unusual for indies or small studios to license single copies of a number of engines and tools (not the AAA cost an arm and a leg ones) to evaluate them. White papers, 3rd party opinion etc are no substitute for actually trying it yourself.
#58
Maybe so I just hate to see people in this part of the market get burned. Brett paints a lovely picture but that's all it is. Instead of letting Torque speak for itself, you went public to bash on someone else again.
@Brett
Why don't you talk about Torques short comings?
Why did you come to a pc engine battle with a whole line of products and talk as if Torque3D can do all those but it can't. The whole range of products can sure, but Torque3D cant do all that.
11/13/2009 (3:26 am)
@PhilipMaybe so I just hate to see people in this part of the market get burned. Brett paints a lovely picture but that's all it is. Instead of letting Torque speak for itself, you went public to bash on someone else again.
@Brett
Why don't you talk about Torques short comings?
Why did you come to a pc engine battle with a whole line of products and talk as if Torque3D can do all those but it can't. The whole range of products can sure, but Torque3D cant do all that.
#59
@everyonebutJeremy: Thanks for the kind comments, opinions and suggestions. Please, keep'em coming. It would be great to hear from as much of the community as possible, even if it's just a "+1" for someone else's comment. Thanks!
11/13/2009 (3:26 am)
Ah well. Someone had to come and poop in the pool at some point, eh? @everyonebutJeremy: Thanks for the kind comments, opinions and suggestions. Please, keep'em coming. It would be great to hear from as much of the community as possible, even if it's just a "+1" for someone else's comment. Thanks!
#60
the only game engine I can use is Torque X for Creators Club.
I think I know what you are getting at:
Back in the day of the compiler wars,
late 70's early to mid 80's I think, Microsoft dashed out ahead with
Visual Studio. I jumped on board about 1997 or 8 with VS 4.0, upgraded
to VS 6.0 where it became unsupported and then nonsupported. So I had to
by into Visual Studio 2005. They pushed a huge leap of faith on that
one because about half of the modules, OCX's etc..., from VS 6.0 needed
to be converted to the new managed code in .NET. So they gave their notice
and trashed the old code base modules and had hope that there users would
still follow.
Ten Years After:
Apparently they did, now it sounds like Torque X has a good gig as a partner
through XNA-CC. I would say just hold your ground and try to blend a smoother
and less abrupt transition than what happened with the brute force definition
change from unmanaged to managed code.
And don't forget;
"Never argue with a fool, you'll be dragged down to that level and beaten with experiance."
G'day
11/13/2009 (3:36 am)
I went looking around at game engines, and from all that I've gatheredthe only game engine I can use is Torque X for Creators Club.
I think I know what you are getting at:
Back in the day of the compiler wars,
late 70's early to mid 80's I think, Microsoft dashed out ahead with
Visual Studio. I jumped on board about 1997 or 8 with VS 4.0, upgraded
to VS 6.0 where it became unsupported and then nonsupported. So I had to
by into Visual Studio 2005. They pushed a huge leap of faith on that
one because about half of the modules, OCX's etc..., from VS 6.0 needed
to be converted to the new managed code in .NET. So they gave their notice
and trashed the old code base modules and had hope that there users would
still follow.
Ten Years After:
Apparently they did, now it sounds like Torque X has a good gig as a partner
through XNA-CC. I would say just hold your ground and try to blend a smoother
and less abrupt transition than what happened with the brute force definition
change from unmanaged to managed code.
And don't forget;
"Never argue with a fool, you'll be dragged down to that level and beaten with experiance."
G'day

Torque 3D Owner Brett Seyler
Default Studio Name