Torque 3D Development - GDC Live Edition
by Brett Seyler · 04/04/2009 (2:31 pm) · 333 comments
Wow...another GDC behind us. This was a big one. I dare say it was GG's biggest ever. Josh Williams and I gave a talk on Thursday titles "The Future of Web Games" which ended up being packed full with standing room only. There was a tremendous amount of interest in both InstantAction Technology and Torque 3D. That went off fabulously. We did some private demos for the big gun studios. The GG booth was jam packed for 3 days straight, and despite bringing a full staff of GG'ers to San Francisco to help, I think everyone was overloaded with excited questions and lots of "when can I get that!!??" The really exciting part for Torque 3D stuff (which was absurdely well recieved) is that we've still only shown probably 50% of what we're working on. Some of you saw Tom Spilman's uStream walkthough of the "South Pacific" demo. That's all been captured and posted for you relentless viewing and scrutinizing below =) Obviously a lot of people put hard work into Torque 3D, but we really owe a lot to Sickhead Games for helping us SHOW rather than tell all of what Torque 3D is capable of.
Tom's gone way above and beyond creating a new terrain implementation (as you'll see in the videos), physics, procedural object placement brushing tools (called "Forest Kit" after the original tech it's based on), and of course, the new Advanced Lighting. It's not just Tom though. Russell Fincher, a great artist, is responsible for making most of this look as good as it does. James did the River and Road tools and Ross worked a lot on bending the World Editor to make all this stuff easily accessible and easier to use. That's just the high points, but they really are a great crew. We're lucky to have their help.
So, in this blog, I'm just posting the Torque 3D relevant footage from GDC. You'll see two demos below, both pretty ground-breaking stuff. There's a lot more on the way. This shakey cam stuff is great, but the video is low resolution and I want to get some straight-from-the-machine captures out to really show how good this all looks and how easy it all is to use.
There truly is a lot more to come. There's a more in depth look at the World Editor, a focus on the Road and River tools, Gerhard's AI and GPU Cloth, Physics, new demos, genre kits, and more. We're also going to try to get a live demo embedded on the website so you can see this stuff for real. All that, and our first build for pre-order customers is just around the corner. Since we opened up the pre-order promotion last week, you guys almost broke our ecommerce system with the flood of purchases. Sorry to those of you who were turned away while we tried to patch things up last week. Hopefully everyone who wanted in got in. Shirts are on their way, and the Torque 3D private forums are alive with anticipation. I can't wait to see what you'll all do with this new technology. I have high hopes :)
I also know that there a lot of unanswered questions from the nearly 500 comments on the last blog. I'm going to re-read those thoroughly this week and try to answer them all. Thanks for you patience and thanks again to everyone whose kept the faith and stuck with us. It's great to know there's still such a huge community behind Torque.
More development blogs to come. This is post #16.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#122
T3D is not what I was expecting from TSE. A deferred rendering system wasn't on anybody's radar at that time, the term SSAO hadn't been invented yet, DoF was a radial blur, wetness was the cheesy moving water found in Unreal 2, PhysX was NovodeX with some rigid bodies and swept cylinders and elipsoids, stencil shadows were all the rage.
TGEA 1.8.1 is about what I was expecting from TSE when I bought in; TGE with an abstracted cross-platform shader-driven rendering pipeline. Hence "Torque Shader Engine". The only things I haven't seen that I was expecting was a more flexible terrain system, which was supposed to be able to support caves and overhangs, and Linux support.
For the $150 I paid for it I certainly didn't expect anything more than that. But then again, I live in the real world, where $150 is the equivalent of a few hours of time, which is about how long it would take me just to create all of the source files in TGEA... only they'd be empty with no code in them.
04/06/2009 (3:09 am)
I was also an EA for TSE, and was pretty much disappointed with it for a long time. I bought in in 2004, and looked at the cool refraction shaders a few times, and then basically put it away as unusable until 1.7 when it finally started shaping up.T3D is not what I was expecting from TSE. A deferred rendering system wasn't on anybody's radar at that time, the term SSAO hadn't been invented yet, DoF was a radial blur, wetness was the cheesy moving water found in Unreal 2, PhysX was NovodeX with some rigid bodies and swept cylinders and elipsoids, stencil shadows were all the rage.
TGEA 1.8.1 is about what I was expecting from TSE when I bought in; TGE with an abstracted cross-platform shader-driven rendering pipeline. Hence "Torque Shader Engine". The only things I haven't seen that I was expecting was a more flexible terrain system, which was supposed to be able to support caves and overhangs, and Linux support.
For the $150 I paid for it I certainly didn't expect anything more than that. But then again, I live in the real world, where $150 is the equivalent of a few hours of time, which is about how long it would take me just to create all of the source files in TGEA... only they'd be empty with no code in them.
#123
Anyone see the cryengine 3 demo? (not much to look at)
I can't wait to get my hands on T3D and start playing!
As for all the addons... I don't mind them not being part of the price.
After all... theres a lot of games that people will use T3D for that don't need trees.
And I think it's great to support dev's... the more we support, the better addons!
And I'll no doubt get a lot of stick for this but.... many of the people complaining about a feature not being part of stock code, are the sort of people that will never go all the way and ship a game with or without all the features and addons.
If you don't like the features or price tag of T3D, and think another engine is better... then you're very much free to go use another engine before you buy T3D and complain more that you bought it and there's no "make my game button"
Congrats and very well done GarageGames staff and everyone else involved in T3D!
04/06/2009 (3:43 am)
I think Torque 3D is looking frigging amazing!... If I didn't know it was Torque, I would have said it was the cryengine at a first glance. Anyone see the cryengine 3 demo? (not much to look at)
I can't wait to get my hands on T3D and start playing!
As for all the addons... I don't mind them not being part of the price.
After all... theres a lot of games that people will use T3D for that don't need trees.
And I think it's great to support dev's... the more we support, the better addons!
And I'll no doubt get a lot of stick for this but.... many of the people complaining about a feature not being part of stock code, are the sort of people that will never go all the way and ship a game with or without all the features and addons.
If you don't like the features or price tag of T3D, and think another engine is better... then you're very much free to go use another engine before you buy T3D and complain more that you bought it and there's no "make my game button"
Congrats and very well done GarageGames staff and everyone else involved in T3D!
#124
I'm just glad to hear that we're getting any form of networked PhysX at all. I think most of us definitely don't expect to see the level of complex physics interaction seen in these videos reproduced in multiplayer; it's simply way too much overhead to sync all of those objects to every client, and I can't think of many game types where it would be worth it.
I personally would be 100% satisfied with if we could get basic support for replacing Vehicle's Rigid Class with networked PhysX actors.
Anyway, great stuff as usual. I'm loving this "yeah, we can do everything Crysis did for $1000 per seat" demo you guys put together. Can't wait to get my hands on a beta.
04/06/2009 (3:43 am)
Quote:What Tom is saying is that he doesn't know how much of this kind of thing will be networkable. No engine has networked physics that look like this. They all show single player physics madness, and we'll include pretty much all of this kind of thing good for single player as well, but we're pretty focused on what we can do to improve networked physics. The future is multiplayer.
I'm just glad to hear that we're getting any form of networked PhysX at all. I think most of us definitely don't expect to see the level of complex physics interaction seen in these videos reproduced in multiplayer; it's simply way too much overhead to sync all of those objects to every client, and I can't think of many game types where it would be worth it.
I personally would be 100% satisfied with if we could get basic support for replacing Vehicle's Rigid Class with networked PhysX actors.
Anyway, great stuff as usual. I'm loving this "yeah, we can do everything Crysis did for $1000 per seat" demo you guys put together. Can't wait to get my hands on a beta.
#125
04/06/2009 (6:11 am)
Marcus, with all due respect, you have a few things plainly wrong.Quote:You get the chance of spending hundreds of more dollars on add-on kits, oops sorry "EDITORS." Too bad that "EDITORS" are free with other engines.The river and road tools are editors that come standard with Torque 3D. They are not add-ons to be purchased later. Please understand the distinction. Your post was obviously directed at my correction of someone calling them kits, which I felt was misleading, since they are not add-ons. I'll overlook your implication that I'm trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes.
Quote:Don't get me wrong, the above videos from GDC look amazing. I just didn't want to fork out the money for the vanilla pro sdk, plus all the additional money on 'add-on' packs.The South Pacific video above demonstrates the features of Torque 3D, and ONE add-on kit. Just one, the Forest Kit. Please stop being so dramatic about all these kits you think you'll have to buy. You'll just confuse people.
#126
Just be glad it's being made, and help support the dev's by buying it.
If you don't want to buy the the forest pack, then don't... just use the system that comes stock.
Or spend months coming up with your own system.
It's all this moaning that makes dev's shy away from making packs/kits/addons whatever.
Now lets stop the moaning, and start congratulating the teams on great work!
04/06/2009 (6:19 am)
Guys chill... the forest pack isn't being made by GG, so should not be part of T3D.Just be glad it's being made, and help support the dev's by buying it.
If you don't want to buy the the forest pack, then don't... just use the system that comes stock.
Or spend months coming up with your own system.
It's all this moaning that makes dev's shy away from making packs/kits/addons whatever.
Now lets stop the moaning, and start congratulating the teams on great work!
#127
And Russell, thats the point the Forest Kit, is a functionally univeral upgrade. It isnt genre specific, and surely while a "upgrade" compared to ground cover. It would make too much sense to try to split it from all the demos, since judging from the videos, 90% of then have used it. Or am I wrong. Think of it this way. We get a south pacific demo.. But oh sorry you dont have the forest kit, cant see that.
and Joseph, as for making devs shy away from making packs and kits, the problem with that whole bit isnt making the kits and packs, its 1)supporting those packs (see all the unsupported packs on the GG site that were dropped) 2)the compatibility between what we see, and what we will get.
"If you don't want to buy the the forest pack, then don't... just use the system that comes stock."
Can we see all the demos without the forest pack in use please then. Lets see it for what it really is. I want to see stock, not what Looks the best if you can afford all the addons and put them together.
04/06/2009 (6:47 am)
True but if you notice that warrior camp demo apparently does use the ForestPack, And as i thought i heard.. the Warrior Camp level was going to be used for the FPS genre pack/assets. In fact im betting a few of the packs have some cross genre material. Its great work, but everytime we are turning around, its a slightly different version. Remember when T3d first came out. It was Juggernaught (all of them combines, remember that big post with all the nice pictures), then it was a seperate product (TGEA 2.0). Now its just seems like things are getting shaved off. Yes Looks great, Sounds great, the deal is great. Now lets see what we actually get. so far i have seen posts by employees that refer to AI, Phyx, FPS, Racing, and Forest Pack each being sold seperately.And Russell, thats the point the Forest Kit, is a functionally univeral upgrade. It isnt genre specific, and surely while a "upgrade" compared to ground cover. It would make too much sense to try to split it from all the demos, since judging from the videos, 90% of then have used it. Or am I wrong. Think of it this way. We get a south pacific demo.. But oh sorry you dont have the forest kit, cant see that.
and Joseph, as for making devs shy away from making packs and kits, the problem with that whole bit isnt making the kits and packs, its 1)supporting those packs (see all the unsupported packs on the GG site that were dropped) 2)the compatibility between what we see, and what we will get.
"If you don't want to buy the the forest pack, then don't... just use the system that comes stock."
Can we see all the demos without the forest pack in use please then. Lets see it for what it really is. I want to see stock, not what Looks the best if you can afford all the addons and put them together.
#128
04/06/2009 (6:53 am)
Quote:And Russell, thats the point the Forest Kit, is a functionally univeral upgrade. It isnt genre specific, and surely while a "upgrade" compared to ground cover. It would make too much sense to try to split it from all the demos, since judging from the videos, 90% of then have used it.Edward, to my knowledge, the only Torque 3D demo that uses the Forest Kit is South Pacific. I would really like to know where you got this figure.
#129
I think most of us are having the issue when they show these videos and say "THIS IS TORQUE 3D" then they oh but the actually SDK will only have this.
04/06/2009 (6:58 am)
Sorry, other then demos of other games (which are obviously customed for the game), have you seen other Demos other then South Pacific (that doesnt include videos that were focused on a features). Perhaps my 90% is wrong but if be happy to see other videos of other Demos outside of the South Pacific demo.. (Is the south pacific demo also the warrior camp?)I think most of us are having the issue when they show these videos and say "THIS IS TORQUE 3D" then they oh but the actually SDK will only have this.
#130
04/06/2009 (7:11 am)
Quote:have you seen other Demos other then South PacificI saw all the Torque 3D demos at GDC.
Quote:And Russell, thats the point the Forest Kit, is a functionally univeral upgrade. It isnt genre specific, and surely while a "upgrade" compared to ground cover. It would make too much sense to try to split it from all the demos, since judging from the videos, 90% of then have used it.I would really like to know where you got this figure.
#131
04/06/2009 (7:16 am)
Sorry, wasnt at GDC, can only speak on what i have seen or told to me. can you show me another Demo movie, on here or else where, that doesnt have the Forest pack in it, that isnt specifically a feature movie or a Game demo?
#132
04/06/2009 (7:26 am)
Quote:Sorry, wasnt at GDC, can only speak on what i have seen or told to me.If you haven't seen all the demos, then it seems pretty silly to be making a definitive statement about what is or isn't in 90% of the demos, doesn't it? :)
Quote:can you show me another Demo movie, on here or else where, that doesnt have the Forest pack in it, that isnt specifically a feature movie or a Game demo?The beta isn't out for T3D yet, so no, I can't recommend anything for you to look at made in Torque 3D that isn't a tech demo or feature video. As I said, to my knowledge, South Pacific is the only T3D demo using the Forest Kit.
#133
Just a slight clarification:
Juggernaut was always an internal (and extremely volatile) codebase. It was constantly changing, and while it was a combined codebase for our Torque-based engines, it was never meant for public consumption. We were not going to release Jugg into the wild as TGEA 2.0. I was under that impression, too when I went to IGC in 2007, but it was quickly cleared up. Unfortunately, it's still not as clear around the forums and other dev communities.
04/06/2009 (7:46 am)
@EdwardJust a slight clarification:
Quote:Remember when T3d first came out. It was Juggernaught (all of them combines, remember that big post with all the nice pictures), then it was a seperate product (TGEA 2.0).
Juggernaut was always an internal (and extremely volatile) codebase. It was constantly changing, and while it was a combined codebase for our Torque-based engines, it was never meant for public consumption. We were not going to release Jugg into the wild as TGEA 2.0. I was under that impression, too when I went to IGC in 2007, but it was quickly cleared up. Unfortunately, it's still not as clear around the forums and other dev communities.
#134
04/06/2009 (7:47 am)
Can I just say that I think "King-Tyrannosaur-Flaming-Sword-Engine" is a much better name for T3D?
#135
@Russell -Yes I have seen all the demos that are available to me, how would you expect me to make a statement and not back it up. If you saw something at GDC thats says otherwise, say so? And give the example. Im basing my 90% of what I have seen on this GG website, the Vimeo videos and the few YouTube ones that are floating around. But yes, No one seems to know whats even coming with T3d, so maybe its a mute point and there will be some items folded in at the last minute. The point of the statement was there was alot of folks saying the packs will be seperate, yet all the demos we are seeing , have included the packs. Selling the demos with all the nuts and bolts, vs whats actually in the SDK, just doesnt seem to add up to 100% does it to you?
04/06/2009 (8:04 am)
Thats what i meaned David, There was that impression, and yes it was cleared up shortly after that.@Russell -Yes I have seen all the demos that are available to me, how would you expect me to make a statement and not back it up. If you saw something at GDC thats says otherwise, say so? And give the example. Im basing my 90% of what I have seen on this GG website, the Vimeo videos and the few YouTube ones that are floating around. But yes, No one seems to know whats even coming with T3d, so maybe its a mute point and there will be some items folded in at the last minute. The point of the statement was there was alot of folks saying the packs will be seperate, yet all the demos we are seeing , have included the packs. Selling the demos with all the nuts and bolts, vs whats actually in the SDK, just doesnt seem to add up to 100% does it to you?
#136
*? did it work ?*
Dang..
04/06/2009 (8:25 am)
Just give us beta already, then it will be more quiet here :P*? did it work ?*
Dang..
#138
Anyway, anything that is put together to make a demo from a game engine is necessarily going to include something other than what is in the game engine. Otherwise the game engine is a game or demo rather than a game engine.
The demos, including South Pacific, show what you can do with T3D, and what people have done with T3D. The forest kit is an example of something that has been done with T3D, and the South Pacific demo is a demo showing T3D in action, including the Forest Kit.
Considering the engine isn't done yet, I'd rather have the GG guys spending their time working on the engine than putting together demos, when there are third parties already making demos and games with it.
04/06/2009 (8:48 am)
@Edward, to come up with a figure of 90% would suggest that you have seen at least 9 demos that include the forest kit. Since there has only been one demo that uses the forest kit, it's pretty hard to accept the idea that you can back that up.Anyway, anything that is put together to make a demo from a game engine is necessarily going to include something other than what is in the game engine. Otherwise the game engine is a game or demo rather than a game engine.
The demos, including South Pacific, show what you can do with T3D, and what people have done with T3D. The forest kit is an example of something that has been done with T3D, and the South Pacific demo is a demo showing T3D in action, including the Forest Kit.
Considering the engine isn't done yet, I'd rather have the GG guys spending their time working on the engine than putting together demos, when there are third parties already making demos and games with it.
#139
You are all missing the point
Anything you can do with forest kit you can do without it - just takes longer.
Instead of painting trees and stuff into the terrain you have to place them one at a time.
Not having the forest kit won't change the look and feel of things in the engine.
I don't know how much of that phisics is part of the engine and how much is from the forest kit creators but the demo shows it can be done.
That's what demos are for - showing off the possibilities.
If they had there nothing but the engine there would be nothing to show (models are not engine either).
Engine is just code - they were showing the power of that code - forest kit doesn't change that - if anything help show potecial - and that's what was the point at GDC.
04/06/2009 (9:49 am)
GuysYou are all missing the point
Anything you can do with forest kit you can do without it - just takes longer.
Instead of painting trees and stuff into the terrain you have to place them one at a time.
Not having the forest kit won't change the look and feel of things in the engine.
I don't know how much of that phisics is part of the engine and how much is from the forest kit creators but the demo shows it can be done.
That's what demos are for - showing off the possibilities.
If they had there nothing but the engine there would be nothing to show (models are not engine either).
Engine is just code - they were showing the power of that code - forest kit doesn't change that - if anything help show potecial - and that's what was the point at GDC.
#140
It doesn't matter what assets ship with the engine, art content does not equal game, game engine features, or SDK.
Go back and re-read that last monster blog in which pricing and licensing was discussed. We/you were given a feature list there. In fact, go back and re-read that blog again, did you see it? It was mentioned in there that the forest kit would be a separate "kit" sometime after release of Torque 3D.
It was plainly stated, here and in the videos, that the Sickhead guys were demonstrating the South Pacific demo to show off some of the features of Torque 3D and their very own Forest Kit product working together. South Pacific, Warrior Camp, Burg, Undercity, even MBU feature demonstrations are just that: demonstrations of what can be done using Torque 3d.
They all look good to me but I'm not expecting or wanting to make use of the content that may be available from any of the demonstrations. What I'm enamored of are the new terrain, advanced lighting, the streamlined editor, the road/river tools, the addition of new effects, easier art pipeline with live asset updating, material editor, etc etc -- all things talked about but not all spotlighted yet. None of that will make the game for me, nor do I expect it to.
And looking back, the idea of a Genre Kit is nothing new. The RTS kit still seems to see a reasonable following despite it's age, the Combat Starter Kit largely a re-write of many resources, the Flight Game Example some flying vehicle datablocks and dogfighting AI, or even the huge number of Content Packs of all kinds. Look at the large number of people that make use of Arcane FX, that was a separate add-on kit that only gives you special effect choreography and a tweaked camera with point and click selection -- hell, the Spells came extra didn't they!? Disclaimer: I'm not knocking any of those fine kits/packs, only using sarcasm to illustrate a point.
Why complain about a percieved "new" trend when the trend has been there all along?
I appreciate the work, time, and effort that all of those developers invested in their products, and applaud those investing their time & effort into creating Torque 3D and making it into what it's coming to be.
04/06/2009 (9:49 am)
Talk about smoke and mirrors: are you guys more concerned about a feature set of the SDK or the content that comes with possible addons? I'm not planning to create a Warrior Camp or South Pacific type of game, are you? I guess we should get the Marble Blast content that was used to demonstrate lighting and collada loading features too, if we follow your reasoning. If said content was purchased separately, or if you paid for an artist to create the equivalent of what Apparatus did for Warrior Camp, that would cost you near on a $1000 dollars alone (probably more) -- and that would be a cheap artist!It doesn't matter what assets ship with the engine, art content does not equal game, game engine features, or SDK.
Go back and re-read that last monster blog in which pricing and licensing was discussed. We/you were given a feature list there. In fact, go back and re-read that blog again, did you see it? It was mentioned in there that the forest kit would be a separate "kit" sometime after release of Torque 3D.
It was plainly stated, here and in the videos, that the Sickhead guys were demonstrating the South Pacific demo to show off some of the features of Torque 3D and their very own Forest Kit product working together. South Pacific, Warrior Camp, Burg, Undercity, even MBU feature demonstrations are just that: demonstrations of what can be done using Torque 3d.
They all look good to me but I'm not expecting or wanting to make use of the content that may be available from any of the demonstrations. What I'm enamored of are the new terrain, advanced lighting, the streamlined editor, the road/river tools, the addition of new effects, easier art pipeline with live asset updating, material editor, etc etc -- all things talked about but not all spotlighted yet. None of that will make the game for me, nor do I expect it to.
And looking back, the idea of a Genre Kit is nothing new. The RTS kit still seems to see a reasonable following despite it's age, the Combat Starter Kit largely a re-write of many resources, the Flight Game Example some flying vehicle datablocks and dogfighting AI, or even the huge number of Content Packs of all kinds. Look at the large number of people that make use of Arcane FX, that was a separate add-on kit that only gives you special effect choreography and a tweaked camera with point and click selection -- hell, the Spells came extra didn't they!? Disclaimer: I'm not knocking any of those fine kits/packs, only using sarcasm to illustrate a point.
Why complain about a percieved "new" trend when the trend has been there all along?
I appreciate the work, time, and effort that all of those developers invested in their products, and applaud those investing their time & effort into creating Torque 3D and making it into what it's coming to be.
Torque Owner BrokeAss Games
BrokeAss Games
That's $250 over almost 5 years! O_O
Now, 5 years later I can upgrade for $505.
That's $755 over 5 years.
My game habit costs more than that.
A single MMOG account for 5 years @ $15/mo costs $900.
SpeedTree told me $8,000 (indie price).
And Endorphin is $9,495.
Somebody out there seems to be working very hard to make things cheaper for us.
And it's not like they get paid more for giving it to us cheap.