Torque 3D Development - GDC Live Edition
by Brett Seyler · 04/04/2009 (2:31 pm) · 333 comments
Wow...another GDC behind us. This was a big one. I dare say it was GG's biggest ever. Josh Williams and I gave a talk on Thursday titles "The Future of Web Games" which ended up being packed full with standing room only. There was a tremendous amount of interest in both InstantAction Technology and Torque 3D. That went off fabulously. We did some private demos for the big gun studios. The GG booth was jam packed for 3 days straight, and despite bringing a full staff of GG'ers to San Francisco to help, I think everyone was overloaded with excited questions and lots of "when can I get that!!??" The really exciting part for Torque 3D stuff (which was absurdely well recieved) is that we've still only shown probably 50% of what we're working on. Some of you saw Tom Spilman's uStream walkthough of the "South Pacific" demo. That's all been captured and posted for you relentless viewing and scrutinizing below =) Obviously a lot of people put hard work into Torque 3D, but we really owe a lot to Sickhead Games for helping us SHOW rather than tell all of what Torque 3D is capable of.
Tom's gone way above and beyond creating a new terrain implementation (as you'll see in the videos), physics, procedural object placement brushing tools (called "Forest Kit" after the original tech it's based on), and of course, the new Advanced Lighting. It's not just Tom though. Russell Fincher, a great artist, is responsible for making most of this look as good as it does. James did the River and Road tools and Ross worked a lot on bending the World Editor to make all this stuff easily accessible and easier to use. That's just the high points, but they really are a great crew. We're lucky to have their help.
So, in this blog, I'm just posting the Torque 3D relevant footage from GDC. You'll see two demos below, both pretty ground-breaking stuff. There's a lot more on the way. This shakey cam stuff is great, but the video is low resolution and I want to get some straight-from-the-machine captures out to really show how good this all looks and how easy it all is to use.
There truly is a lot more to come. There's a more in depth look at the World Editor, a focus on the Road and River tools, Gerhard's AI and GPU Cloth, Physics, new demos, genre kits, and more. We're also going to try to get a live demo embedded on the website so you can see this stuff for real. All that, and our first build for pre-order customers is just around the corner. Since we opened up the pre-order promotion last week, you guys almost broke our ecommerce system with the flood of purchases. Sorry to those of you who were turned away while we tried to patch things up last week. Hopefully everyone who wanted in got in. Shirts are on their way, and the Torque 3D private forums are alive with anticipation. I can't wait to see what you'll all do with this new technology. I have high hopes :)
I also know that there a lot of unanswered questions from the nearly 500 comments on the last blog. I'm going to re-read those thoroughly this week and try to answer them all. Thanks for you patience and thanks again to everyone whose kept the faith and stuck with us. It's great to know there's still such a huge community behind Torque.
More development blogs to come. This is post #16.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#82
As far as the price goes, Sickhead has always done right by the community. Whatever price they set will be more than fair for what you get.
By the way, remember our last talk about attitude?
04/05/2009 (1:55 pm)
@Neill - We never touted, for Torque 3D or any previous engine, a stock forest system. This does not have to be a stock feature because it does not fit every game type, which is why it is appropriate for being a kit.As far as the price goes, Sickhead has always done right by the community. Whatever price they set will be more than fair for what you get.
By the way, remember our last talk about attitude?
#83
But back to your question... No it doesn't do that... be we did have a spirited discussion on the merits of implementing just that sort of functionality. We would love to do it... but there are alot of other things we need to focus on. So i don't think we'll get to it for this first release.
04/05/2009 (2:13 pm)
@KevinQuote:1.) For the river path add-on, if I make a 90 degree angel fall in the middle would that create a waterfall effect or do i still need partical effect for that.First to be clear the rivers and roads are not an add-on... they are part of Torque 3D.
But back to your question... No it doesn't do that... be we did have a spirited discussion on the merits of implementing just that sort of functionality. We would love to do it... but there are alot of other things we need to focus on. So i don't think we'll get to it for this first release.
#84
I have no "real" issue with that aswell, but i know for a fact there is plenty of 99$ & 199$ engines out there that allows you "out of box" to "paint" terrain with vegetation (w/ automatic rotation ect).
I think thats Neill Silva's issue, and i do see his point in that, and why that should have been a part of the editor out of the box.
I will, ofcourse most likely buy the forest kit, not for the tree's nor the grass models, but just for the physics and for the painting on terrain. :)
04/05/2009 (2:48 pm)
@Michael PerryI have no "real" issue with that aswell, but i know for a fact there is plenty of 99$ & 199$ engines out there that allows you "out of box" to "paint" terrain with vegetation (w/ automatic rotation ect).
I think thats Neill Silva's issue, and i do see his point in that, and why that should have been a part of the editor out of the box.
I will, ofcourse most likely buy the forest kit, not for the tree's nor the grass models, but just for the physics and for the painting on terrain. :)
#85
2. If I make a boat or a ship, would the player be able to walk on it while it is floating? While the current carries them?
3. Is there any use for .dif models anymore? Now that pre-baked lighting is pretty much disposed of?
4. Is the engine really going to be called Torque 3D? I just expected that to be a development name.
5. Will Apple's OpenCL API be implemented into the engine? It seems like it would be good for low-performing hardware.
04/05/2009 (2:57 pm)
1. Can oceans and lakes do the same things as rivers can do? Like floating objects and currents?2. If I make a boat or a ship, would the player be able to walk on it while it is floating? While the current carries them?
3. Is there any use for .dif models anymore? Now that pre-baked lighting is pretty much disposed of?
4. Is the engine really going to be called Torque 3D? I just expected that to be a development name.
5. Will Apple's OpenCL API be implemented into the engine? It seems like it would be good for low-performing hardware.
#86
I think we are at the point where comparing Torque 3D to other engines is a fruitless discussion. You can try, but Torque Tech stands alone and Torque 3D is our flagship engine for a reason. The developers are doing their thing for their own reasons, and not to replicate another engines.
04/05/2009 (2:58 pm)
@Bo - The stock engine has the Ground Cover system, which handles a lot of foliage and tree placement based on material. That is exposed via the editor and is generic enough to fit properly. Going beyond the base functionality warrants an add-on kit IMO.I think we are at the point where comparing Torque 3D to other engines is a fruitless discussion. You can try, but Torque Tech stands alone and Torque 3D is our flagship engine for a reason. The developers are doing their thing for their own reasons, and not to replicate another engines.
#87
I doubt how many 'free' resources there will be with T3D. Everyone is going to be trying to make a buck, thus the destruction of the community is inevitable.
04/05/2009 (4:17 pm)
Unity has the tree assets and painting them on in the stock engine. I doubt how many 'free' resources there will be with T3D. Everyone is going to be trying to make a buck, thus the destruction of the community is inevitable.
#88
But we are thinking about the problem.
That said... i can think of some tricks to get a raft working with the existing system we have. Mainly building it out of multiple actors balanced to give you what seems like accurate buoyancy.
Still DIF models are easier for some people to create... i think they still have value. The performance of DIF models has been poor in the past and we're addressing that in Torque 3D.
04/05/2009 (4:24 pm)
@TylerQuote:1. Can oceans and lakes do the same things as rivers can do? Like floating objects and currents?All water objects support buoyancy, but only rivers have a current flow force. The right solution for large bodies of water would be something more complex than we have time to address and would be very game specific.
But we are thinking about the problem.
Quote:2. If I make a boat or a ship, would the player be able to walk on it while it is floating? While the current carries them?In single player modes you can stand on a physics object, but won't be usable to make a large floating raft for instance. The buoyancy forces are not physically accurate... its just a simple force thru the geometric center of the object. You really need to address objects like that with special code.
That said... i can think of some tricks to get a raft working with the existing system we have. Mainly building it out of multiple actors balanced to give you what seems like accurate buoyancy.
Quote:3. Is there any use for .dif models anymore? Now that pre-baked lighting is pretty much disposed of?Well if your video card cannot support at least 2.0 shaders then you fall back to basic lighting mode which is still using lightmaps.
Still DIF models are easier for some people to create... i think they still have value. The performance of DIF models has been poor in the past and we're addressing that in Torque 3D.
Quote:4. Is the engine really going to be called Torque 3D? I just expected that to be a development name.Thats the name... love it!
Quote:5. Will Apple's OpenCL API be implemented into the engine? It seems like it would be good for low-performing hardware.No plans that i know of.
#89
04/05/2009 (4:39 pm)
Negativity like that is what we don't need here Jason, if you don't want to pay for resources make your own. >.>
#90
04/05/2009 (4:44 pm)
Thank you Ross and Russell for the answer to my question.
#91
04/05/2009 (4:45 pm)
When TGE first came out, there were a ton of free resources, which helped build the community. Ever since then there has been less and less free resources and people willing to help, and more and more greed.
#92
04/05/2009 (4:54 pm)
@Jason: Quote:When TGE first came out, there were a ton of free resources, which helped build the community. Ever since then there has been less and less free resources and people willing to help, and more and more greed.I don't get this. What's greedy? Expecting everything for free or building something that's worth paying for?
#93
It also makes the question what does come with the engine, and what they have to pay extra for.
Edit:
When you mention things like "Roads and Rivers pathing by so an so."
Does this cost extra?
Then you have genre 'kits'.
These must cost extra.
Now you have a Forest Kit.
This costs extra.
You also have an AI and Cloth by so and so.
Does this cost extra?
There needs to be somewhere other then a specific blog post that's buried where it indicates what the engine comes with, and what costs extra.
04/05/2009 (5:11 pm)
Oh, definitely not wanting everything for free. I wouldn't show people a demo of T3D with 'addon packs' that can be purchased for additional $$$ though. It gives one the impression that what was featured in the demo comes standard with the engine. It also makes the question what does come with the engine, and what they have to pay extra for.
Edit:
When you mention things like "Roads and Rivers pathing by so an so."
Does this cost extra?
Then you have genre 'kits'.
These must cost extra.
Now you have a Forest Kit.
This costs extra.
You also have an AI and Cloth by so and so.
Does this cost extra?
There needs to be somewhere other then a specific blog post that's buried where it indicates what the engine comes with, and what costs extra.
#94
Coming from someone who was purchased 1 product in 8 and a bit years and made 19 posts (before the above 3) is a bit rich if you ask me. You hardly represent the community, or their opinion.
04/05/2009 (5:16 pm)
Quote:Unity has the tree assets and painting them on in the stock engine.
I doubt how many 'free' resources there will be with T3D. Everyone is going to be trying to make a buck, thus the destruction of the community is inevitable.
Coming from someone who was purchased 1 product in 8 and a bit years and made 19 posts (before the above 3) is a bit rich if you ask me. You hardly represent the community, or their opinion.
#95
there will always be free resources and there will be tgea and tge resources that work with t#D still so there's still allot. tge had allot of resources when it started out because there was non. there are lots of resources now so why make a resource thats basically the same. why not make the resource better and make it into a kit much like ubiq they make there stuff performance friendly. they should get payed for there hard work. though the price of there last product i think it still way out of line. :P
and remember T3D is basically TGEA 2.0 so allot of resources will work with T3D maybe all of them will. TGEA games they said should work right into T3D without any problems but i cant confirm this to little info on that right now. :P
04/05/2009 (5:19 pm)
but this was a GDC demo they needed to show other stuff off thats not with the engine.there will always be free resources and there will be tgea and tge resources that work with t#D still so there's still allot. tge had allot of resources when it started out because there was non. there are lots of resources now so why make a resource thats basically the same. why not make the resource better and make it into a kit much like ubiq they make there stuff performance friendly. they should get payed for there hard work. though the price of there last product i think it still way out of line. :P
and remember T3D is basically TGEA 2.0 so allot of resources will work with T3D maybe all of them will. TGEA games they said should work right into T3D without any problems but i cant confirm this to little info on that right now. :P
#96
That makes sense, especially since DTS still can't support everything DIF can (such as underground objects).
A suggestion I would make is web rivers, which would solve the problem of making multiple lakes (and have rivers connected to each other). Imagine this as a lake:
And this could be a river system for connecting rivers:
Let's not forget the almighty whirpool:
They are crude representations, but I believe you understand what I am thinking.
I would be interested in this happening, since I expect this would allow many higher-intense graphics and physics.
04/05/2009 (5:54 pm)
Quote:Quote:
3. Is there any use for .dif models anymore? Now that pre-baked lighting is pretty much disposed of?
Well if your video card cannot support at least 2.0 shaders then you fall back to basic lighting mode which is still using lightmaps.
Still DIF models are easier for some people to create... i think they still have value. The performance of DIF models has been poor in the past and we're addressing that in Torque 3D.
That makes sense, especially since DTS still can't support everything DIF can (such as underground objects).
Quote:Quote:
1. Can oceans and lakes do the same things as rivers can do? Like floating objects and currents?
All water objects support buoyancy, but only rivers have a current flow force. The right solution for large bodies of water would be something more complex than we have time to address and would be very game specific.
But we are thinking about the problem.
A suggestion I would make is web rivers, which would solve the problem of making multiple lakes (and have rivers connected to each other). Imagine this as a lake:
And this could be a river system for connecting rivers:
Let's not forget the almighty whirpool:
They are crude representations, but I believe you understand what I am thinking.
Quote:Quote:
5. Will Apple's OpenCL API be implemented into the engine? It seems like it would be good for low-performing hardware.]
No plans that i know of.
I would be interested in this happening, since I expect this would allow many higher-intense graphics and physics.
#97
04/05/2009 (5:58 pm)
I was wondering what type of tree will in the Forest kit have pine trees, oak, cherry etc also how many tree will this pack contain? I also start a thread about Content pack for T3D Click Here 
#98
DTS (with polysoup) gets better performance in TGEA.
Twiddles thumbs
04/05/2009 (6:29 pm)
Quote:The performance of DIF models has been poor in the past and we're addressing that in Torque 3D.Ah, that's interesting. I've got a town/level made as both a DIF and a DTS for direct comparison when the Beta ships. (actually the DTS is a bit more complicated but I'm trying not to split hairs).
DTS (with polysoup) gets better performance in TGEA.
Twiddles thumbs
#99
What I am hearing from Employees, is that there will be a series of packs and addon released. So does that mean say for example the Warrior camp shown in the demo, would require the Forest Pack, as indicated before?
When will the folks that have preordered get a final draft of what will and wont be in the beta build. Im seeing a few comments about how work is still being integrated. I dont want to think of the conversation that goes like.."We have to release a demo, but its not done... oh its ok, we will just package up the ai kit batch and sell it later as a addon."
Now im not saying that the prices arent reasonable, but im kinda worried about this nickle and dime effect im reading here. Not to mention the, well to get this effect your going to have to have this list of stuff, which will have to be added yourself of course, becuase its all seperate SDKs that you will need to patch manually into your builds.
Personally, A forest kit, seems to be totally non genre in the first place. Since it can be applies to anyting. Including Space i.e. debris.
On the other side of things. I am totally looking forward to the river and road kit (we wont need to buy a water addon for other effects like waterfalls?)
04/05/2009 (6:42 pm)
SO ok, here is the question. With all these Genre packs and AI, Cloth all extra.. How does one plan on selling these? As patches? Im seeing some issues with these large code batching being put forward.What I am hearing from Employees, is that there will be a series of packs and addon released. So does that mean say for example the Warrior camp shown in the demo, would require the Forest Pack, as indicated before?
When will the folks that have preordered get a final draft of what will and wont be in the beta build. Im seeing a few comments about how work is still being integrated. I dont want to think of the conversation that goes like.."We have to release a demo, but its not done... oh its ok, we will just package up the ai kit batch and sell it later as a addon."
Now im not saying that the prices arent reasonable, but im kinda worried about this nickle and dime effect im reading here. Not to mention the, well to get this effect your going to have to have this list of stuff, which will have to be added yourself of course, becuase its all seperate SDKs that you will need to patch manually into your builds.
Personally, A forest kit, seems to be totally non genre in the first place. Since it can be applies to anyting. Including Space i.e. debris.
On the other side of things. I am totally looking forward to the river and road kit (we wont need to buy a water addon for other effects like waterfalls?)
Torque Owner Brandon Baker
World Core Studios
i will wait till i see more on that forest kit looks super good and the 3d assets that will come with it. i don't think we have the right to complain about the forest kit at what ever price it will be.
you guys need to realized that the trees in that forest kit are top quality 3d assets they are worth allot by there self's. i hope he don't forget desert trees and stuff in that forest kit. :P i like tropical trees as well but my game is based in a desert.