Torque 3D Development - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
by Brett Seyler · 03/20/2009 (7:53 pm) · 496 comments
Hey everyone! I know some of you saw the Gamasutra story that revealed some previously unreleased details about Torque 3D. I'm going to to try to clarify the whole picture, and fill in any gaps with this post here. Because it's GDC week, I'm already down here in SF doing some PR, talking about iTorque, and talking to some local studios about Torque and InstantAction. Needless to say, definitely keeping busy, so I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible and focus on the stuff I know you most want answered. We've got a big week ahead of us :) I'm guessing we'll get a lot more questions answered in the comments, so feel free to throw out anything I don't cover here.
When I first started blogging on our dev progress in December, I really didn't think we'd get as far as we have, as fast as we have. Torque 3D is really a huge step up from TGEA, particularly with respect to the toolset, usability, and content pipeline. I think users will react most to the effort we've put into the tools, and we'll be showing much more of that in the next few weeks. Of course, we've done some major subsystem updates as well (Web publishing, Terrain, Post processing, Particles, etc).
Licensing
I posted twice on pricing & licensing (one of which is still probably the most commented on post in GG history) and we definitely listened. These were the main takeaways from the roughly 400 comments (and numerous emails) I got since.
Quote:1. Support, especially ticketed support is in high demand. If GG can find a way to provide this, there are Torque developers willing to pay for it.
2. A low entry point to Torque is important, even if it means some restrictions in the EULA or deprecating some features.
3. Greater polish, usability, stability and overall quality are paramount attributes for a high-end Torque product.
4. A focus on tools, and particularly usability in the World Editor, is the most important area to address in Torque 3D.
So we took all that, and really put your opinions into action, both from a development standpoint, and with respect to pricing & licensing. Here is what we decided on:
1. Two versions available on the website, Basic and Professional, each with an Indie EULA.
2. Basic and Pro have a feature delta, with the Pro package being targeted at existing TGEA owners, or pro / prosumer developers and studios who might need to create custom code modifications for their game. The Basic package is targeted at new users, who want to learn the tools, and see what the engine is capable of. You will be able to us Basic to create a game, even though we expect it to ship as a binary only. When working on a larger team, artists and designers often don't need access to the source code, and in these cases, the Basic package will probably be a better fit, given that team members can share compiled binaries with one another.
3. For those looking for a custom EULA, perhaps for an entire studio or for a single project that doesn't qualify for our "Indie" license, we'll respond to inquiries to licensing@garagegames.com. I should note that we probably won't touch any requests to this address that aren't from developers serious about a more expansive license and with the means and ability to pay for it. For example, our typical Studio licenses start @ $6k for a small team, and go up from there.
Features
The Professional version of Torque 3D will include everything we've talked about thus far, and a lot of what still hasn't been revealed. For example, we're planning to include updates to Physics, new Terrain, a Decal Editor, a Datablock Editor, River / Road / Path tools, and a Material editor in the final release.
The Basic version will not include Web Publishing, Advanced Lighting, or the River & Road Tools, but everything else is in there. It will also be binary only. Again, this version is probably not a good fit for most of you who currently own TGEA. We're offering the big discount during the pre-order period only on Pro, and TGEA owners will not be able to apply any of their TGEA license fee to Torque 3D Basic. Only to Professional.
We've been talking about Genre Kits and Add-ons a bit as well. There's some really good stuff coming there, but we don't have any pricing to announce with that yet. There's the Luma Racing Kit (based on their game "Rev" published on InstantAction, and including some of those production assets). There's a much updated FPS Starter Kit with work from Max Gaming and Apparatus. There's Sickhead's Forest Kit (not sure if that name is final or not) which is *really* cool. It will let you paint down foliage, or just random objects to the terrain or into a scene. I've seen this in action. It's going to impress the hell out of people. There's also Gerhard's expansion (unnamed at present) which will probably include a lot of custom assets and functionality on top of what you've already seen.
The takeaway w/ Genre Kits and most of these Add-ons is that they will likely be Pro-only.
Pricing
So, let's break this down just a bit more clearly.
What will Torque 3D cost me?
If you own TGEA Indie (and I think this is most of you now), your cost to upgrade to Torque 3D Professional is $1000 - $200 (pre-order discount) - $295 (TGEA Indie contribution = $505If you own TGEA Commercial, you can apply your license to Torque 3D Professional the same way an Indie owner can with a final cost of $505. If you'd like something similar to a Commercial TGEA license for Torque 3D, you'll need to contact us directly.
If you own any other Torque products, you can still purchase TGEA and get the same discount described above for a limited time. The pre-order discount will expire when we release release the final Torque 3D build (expecting this to be in May at the moment). The first beta will be delivered to Torque 3D owners in April.
There is no pre-order available for Torque 3D Basic, and there is no discount on Basic for existing TGEA owners.
Why Pre-order?
Access to the Torque 3D Closed Beta -- First delivery in April An exclusive Torque 3D T-Shirt Torque 3D private forum access on GarageGames.com Up to $495 off the full version priceAs I mentioned before, I'm going to keep posting blogs all the way up to our release, and probably for a while thereafter. We've still got a lot to show.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #15.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#83
i think gg should have there logo they did all the hard engine work not you and your paying penny on the dollar not like the large studios. whats to bad about a 10 sec gg logo anyway there logo looks cool. i might modify there logo when i release my game to make it look better but will still keep the basic logo i will just add background stuff to it and maybe a animation. :P i not even thinking of splash screen right now i will do that when its about time for release.
Ademys you cant pre-order yet on Wednesday you can it should just be like buying tgea i would think. :P
Glen "ThaBonadingus" its not per game price i talked to them about that like a week or so ago. the price will be set up for as many games as you want just like every other license they have.
03/21/2009 (1:50 pm)
lol your paying basically 1k for the engine wile those other people are paying over 1mill for the engine i think they have ever right to be able to take off the logo at prices like that.i think gg should have there logo they did all the hard engine work not you and your paying penny on the dollar not like the large studios. whats to bad about a 10 sec gg logo anyway there logo looks cool. i might modify there logo when i release my game to make it look better but will still keep the basic logo i will just add background stuff to it and maybe a animation. :P i not even thinking of splash screen right now i will do that when its about time for release.
Ademys you cant pre-order yet on Wednesday you can it should just be like buying tgea i would think. :P
Glen "ThaBonadingus" its not per game price i talked to them about that like a week or so ago. the price will be set up for as many games as you want just like every other license they have.
#84
Because Basic has no source code, how would you delete the editors once you have finised a game in it?
From Max
PS. Because i am 14 and just a hobbyist for this stuff, I plan on buying Basic and then upgrading to Pro when i got enough money :D
03/21/2009 (1:53 pm)
just another quick question:Because Basic has no source code, how would you delete the editors once you have finised a game in it?
From Max
PS. Because i am 14 and just a hobbyist for this stuff, I plan on buying Basic and then upgrading to Pro when i got enough money :D
#85
03/21/2009 (1:56 pm)
@Glen: Sorry...not ignored...just trying to get enough sleep and still get work done :) Quote:Ok, i have one question and one question only, referring to the studio edition. Is this a pay-per-developer deal or is it buying a full studio liscense for everyone on the project? If it's that latter that would be a significant price drop from what I was told about the studio liscenses...and also is it a per-game price?Short answer on this one is that it's going to be most expensive than the developer Pro seat in just about every case, but likely to be the same or similar price once you're talking about a team of 5+ people. The Studio license assigns admin rights to an admin at the company who can allocate seats, shuffle seats among multiple users if necessary and add seats if the team expands. There are seat price break points when you're talking about 10+ or 20+ seats. With licenses like these, there's are a lot of points to discuss too. Per project, or per-studio unlimied, etc. There's custom support, and all the other options in the EULA around using Torque. I hope that answers you question.
#86
@Glen - In regard to Studio License questions:
03/21/2009 (1:57 pm)
@Brandon - It definitely will not be 10 seconds. That's excessive. However, unless you work out a special licensing deal, you will need to use our stock splash screens. That's how we usually do things.@Glen - In regard to Studio License questions:
Quote:we'll respond to inquiries to licensing@garagegames.com.
#87
03/21/2009 (2:06 pm)
ok that fine with me Michael Perry thats why i said i was not even thinking of splash screen right now as i know i would have to talk to you guys on doing something like that. i still like the idea though but when its time to go over that i will see about special licensing deal just for that as i want my splash screen with a little hip hop even if it cost me allot more money. :P all i know as i will keep the splash screen of your logo no mater what you earned the right to have it i think.
#88
But, my team said NONONO (almost screamed my ears off) :) so we will go with Blade3D or Unity3D (2.5) or our last backup option wich is TV3D 6.5, one of those (those all can do what this engine can do, just more work for us to begin with :/) hehe.
Still, though, it was mad interesting to follow the developement of T3D, and i wish you all best of luck, and i surely look forward to play some awesome games made with it in the future. :)
03/21/2009 (2:15 pm)
Well i guess since everyone says is okay, its just me who has a issue with splash screen (at 1000$ pr seat).But, my team said NONONO (almost screamed my ears off) :) so we will go with Blade3D or Unity3D (2.5) or our last backup option wich is TV3D 6.5, one of those (those all can do what this engine can do, just more work for us to begin with :/) hehe.
Still, though, it was mad interesting to follow the developement of T3D, and i wish you all best of luck, and i surely look forward to play some awesome games made with it in the future. :)
#89
03/21/2009 (2:21 pm)
I just have one question: is the water in that river actually moving and following the course of the river?
#90
1. Will I have to re-add some of the old statics I have into T3D like the advanced cameras, climbing, walking, swiming.
2. Will the addition of the advanced lighting auto calculate shadows on the terrain or just DTS and DIF objects. AKA Will Day/Night Transitions be more realistic?
3. Will the load time of zoning into a different map be faster now?
4. For the new gui editor will there be any way of dynamically making Gui's as in Having DockPanels, Flow Panels, or Horizontal and Vertical Panels to place Object entities into?
5. With the new Collada format are DTS and DIF going to become obsolete. And would using Collada exported file types be faster of a process vs making DTS exports that fail or not create texture problems.
6. Will the terrain system be able to make horizontal pushes to make cave entrances or cliffs with out rigging other DTS objects in a certain fashion to create this effect?
7. If video integration and play back is in the idea stage would it be something that PC only based or for something that can be ported to other systems.
Sorry for all the questions. I understand if you can't get to them all. Some would be ok.
EDIT:
8. Will there be a better way to Do OOP with Torque script, i'm trying to make things OOP and it seems like im wasting my time.
03/21/2009 (2:24 pm)
All this sounds really nice, and regardless I will still be buying the upgrade to pro. But I've yet to find an answer to the question of:1. Will I have to re-add some of the old statics I have into T3D like the advanced cameras, climbing, walking, swiming.
2. Will the addition of the advanced lighting auto calculate shadows on the terrain or just DTS and DIF objects. AKA Will Day/Night Transitions be more realistic?
3. Will the load time of zoning into a different map be faster now?
4. For the new gui editor will there be any way of dynamically making Gui's as in Having DockPanels, Flow Panels, or Horizontal and Vertical Panels to place Object entities into?
5. With the new Collada format are DTS and DIF going to become obsolete. And would using Collada exported file types be faster of a process vs making DTS exports that fail or not create texture problems.
6. Will the terrain system be able to make horizontal pushes to make cave entrances or cliffs with out rigging other DTS objects in a certain fashion to create this effect?
7. If video integration and play back is in the idea stage would it be something that PC only based or for something that can be ported to other systems.
Sorry for all the questions. I understand if you can't get to them all. Some would be ok.
EDIT:
8. Will there be a better way to Do OOP with Torque script, i'm trying to make things OOP and it seems like im wasting my time.
#91
Allow for Externally Funded Projects
What is GG's Defenition of this??
03/21/2009 (2:42 pm)
just reading threw the feature list of the engine. one thing i am confused on, well maybe not but would like clarification on:Allow for Externally Funded Projects
What is GG's Defenition of this??
#92
DTS is still used - COLLADA models can be just imported into the engine and converted to DTS on the fly.
03/21/2009 (3:15 pm)
@KevinDTS is still used - COLLADA models can be just imported into the engine and converted to DTS on the fly.
#93
With $1000 you could buy a few cheap, but good, programs for things like texture creation, modeling, and audio producing. Then use the Source engine to create your game, and if your work is good enough, see about licensing Source with Valve. (This works under the assumption that your game will create enough profit to pay off the licensing cost for the Source engine.) While not 100% sure to work, you do get full source code to the engine and probably the best level creation tool I have used outside of engines such as UE3+. All free.
Oh and you get Steamworks/Steam fully implemented. Win.
Does that count?
Edit: My math may be way off, but aren't the people who bought the original TGE, upgrade to TGEA, and then the upgrade to T3D paying more than those who would just buy T3D from the get-go?
03/21/2009 (3:16 pm)
@J.C. SmithWith $1000 you could buy a few cheap, but good, programs for things like texture creation, modeling, and audio producing. Then use the Source engine to create your game, and if your work is good enough, see about licensing Source with Valve. (This works under the assumption that your game will create enough profit to pay off the licensing cost for the Source engine.) While not 100% sure to work, you do get full source code to the engine and probably the best level creation tool I have used outside of engines such as UE3+. All free.
Oh and you get Steamworks/Steam fully implemented. Win.
Does that count?
Edit: My math may be way off, but aren't the people who bought the original TGE, upgrade to TGEA, and then the upgrade to T3D paying more than those who would just buy T3D from the get-go?
#94
~LK~
03/21/2009 (4:26 pm)
Does my permission to utilize a custom splash screen of our design (GG's final approval) become in jeopardy with T3D licensing? Because if so.. I WILL not use one of those currently posted.. yes I feel that strongly about it, sorry. All I ask for is something simple and not styled to things like.. blue skies and puffy clouds or... some form of a 4 second advertisement for someone else's game.. you know.. the basics. I need to know this soon please.~LK~
#95
a: Is there a whitepaper awaliable showing the engines capabilities, features in full and requirements.
b: are those trees in the OP out of the box foilage or from a 'additional buy'
c: are the water abilities really as one gets the impression in those pics (small streams, waterfall, etc)
d: what is GG's planned price range for expansions
As mentioned earlier it is a 'killer', to not know the full list before handing is cash.
Note: One of the things that makes a game stand out beside content, mechanics and eye candy is a community. One of the things that can make a 'indy' application stick out betwwen the 3k or so games published every year. Making mod supporting tools a cash cow sucks in my book as it's hard enough to spend cash already on door breakers.
03/21/2009 (4:33 pm)
So as we get closer to actually be able to hand over $ I got a couple of questions;a: Is there a whitepaper awaliable showing the engines capabilities, features in full and requirements.
b: are those trees in the OP out of the box foilage or from a 'additional buy'
c: are the water abilities really as one gets the impression in those pics (small streams, waterfall, etc)
d: what is GG's planned price range for expansions
As mentioned earlier it is a 'killer', to not know the full list before handing is cash.
Note: One of the things that makes a game stand out beside content, mechanics and eye candy is a community. One of the things that can make a 'indy' application stick out betwwen the 3k or so games published every year. Making mod supporting tools a cash cow sucks in my book as it's hard enough to spend cash already on door breakers.
#96
However
One of the reasons we choose Torque was because it supported PC and Mac equally.
I understand that the Mac and PC version may be out of sync however does Torque remain committed to delivering feature equivalent Mac and PC versions ?
If we own Mac TGEA 1.8.1 can we pre-order and receive the same discount price ,even if the Mac version is delayed ?
Does T3D contain a Mac version of a terrain tool L3DT ? Or is this tool no longer required?
03/21/2009 (5:03 pm)
So far this seems to be a good upgrade.However
One of the reasons we choose Torque was because it supported PC and Mac equally.
I understand that the Mac and PC version may be out of sync however does Torque remain committed to delivering feature equivalent Mac and PC versions ?
If we own Mac TGEA 1.8.1 can we pre-order and receive the same discount price ,even if the Mac version is delayed ?
Does T3D contain a Mac version of a terrain tool L3DT ? Or is this tool no longer required?
#97
Why is displaying a splash screen a big deal? Do you want your users to think you created the game engine?
Unity is one of the few game engines that doesn't require a splash screen for a pro version, but if you use any other middleware, such as PhysX, Havok, etc, you're still going to have to display THEIR logos in your game. I don't know if it's still the case, but I know that even companies that spent a million dollars licensing the Unreal engine were required to display a "powered by" splash screen.
People are used to going through logo soup when they start a game, it's not going to detract from the value of your game.
03/21/2009 (5:04 pm)
@Bo Bjering, I have to say I question your priorities if not displaying a splash screen is more important to your team than having source code for the engine.Why is displaying a splash screen a big deal? Do you want your users to think you created the game engine?
Unity is one of the few game engines that doesn't require a splash screen for a pro version, but if you use any other middleware, such as PhysX, Havok, etc, you're still going to have to display THEIR logos in your game. I don't know if it's still the case, but I know that even companies that spent a million dollars licensing the Unreal engine were required to display a "powered by" splash screen.
People are used to going through logo soup when they start a game, it's not going to detract from the value of your game.
#98
@Neill, it depends on if you consider owning all three engines for $830.00 as the route that I did/will do (with TGE 1.3, TLK, TGE 1.5, TGEA EA), or owning only T3D for $800.00...to me personally that's a no brainer...
03/21/2009 (5:08 pm)
Quote:My math may be way off, but aren't the people who bought the original TGE, upgrade to TGEA, and then the upgrade to T3D paying more than those who would just buy T3D from the get-go?
@Neill, it depends on if you consider owning all three engines for $830.00 as the route that I did/will do (with TGE 1.3, TLK, TGE 1.5, TGEA EA), or owning only T3D for $800.00...to me personally that's a no brainer...
#99
Has anyone resolved the DIF art question. I have yet to see that question being answered. And will the current 1.0.5.1 Constructor be compatible with the new t3d setups? I am not too familiar with the collada setup but seems like there is a general drive for that kind of art path.
03/21/2009 (5:14 pm)
OK, i have a few questions. If I buy the Basic version for example. What do i get with content wise? As i am reading, i see genre kits, like the forest kit, FPS kit, and the Racing kit all being mentioned as add ons. So how does one go about using or purchasing these kits, will they be intergrated in a precompiled and Source versions. So if i buy the source version say in 6 months, I can get access to a source version of say for example the FPS kit. Or is all the Genre kits going to require all persons to have a source version to integrate and use them. Im a bit hazy on this non source issue. Particularly things that need changes, like the swimming and player animation additions that are almost certainly not "out of the box". I agree with Christian, we need a White page with all the features and point by point features that we can expect to see in the T3d. I see alot of general points being made. But here we are a week or so to the big reveal and i see a dozen post with a lot of questions that we would love to know. I am definitly already in line for a basic buy. And probably the 505 preorder, but id like to know what i can expect to need above and beyond the tools. Has anyone resolved the DIF art question. I have yet to see that question being answered. And will the current 1.0.5.1 Constructor be compatible with the new t3d setups? I am not too familiar with the collada setup but seems like there is a general drive for that kind of art path.
#100
That is something i consider a no brainer as well. because once i upgrade to TGEA (within a few days) i consider the cost of the 3 and the end cost of T3D which works out to be 150 bucks more for me than most to be well worth the cost. Cause after the upgrade to T3D i can effectively develop games on 3 diffrent engines depending on my Studios game needs.
I bought into TGE at 1.3. Got the 1,4,2 upgrade free then bought into the 1.5.2 upgrade which was well worth the money.
Now i have a new project in progress that i am considering releasing on T3d, timing is perfect to release on it.
The upgrade path is costing me an extra $145 to get to T3D at this point but again, i would happily pay the full $1K for T3D. GG and the current community is awesome. no one can put a dollar amount on that. Not even GG can.
End COst to Upgrade to T3d: $650 USD.
Satifaction Level of gaining 3 AAA Rated game engines: Priceless.
03/21/2009 (5:22 pm)
@Alan JamesThat is something i consider a no brainer as well. because once i upgrade to TGEA (within a few days) i consider the cost of the 3 and the end cost of T3D which works out to be 150 bucks more for me than most to be well worth the cost. Cause after the upgrade to T3D i can effectively develop games on 3 diffrent engines depending on my Studios game needs.
I bought into TGE at 1.3. Got the 1,4,2 upgrade free then bought into the 1.5.2 upgrade which was well worth the money.
Now i have a new project in progress that i am considering releasing on T3d, timing is perfect to release on it.
The upgrade path is costing me an extra $145 to get to T3D at this point but again, i would happily pay the full $1K for T3D. GG and the current community is awesome. no one can put a dollar amount on that. Not even GG can.
End COst to Upgrade to T3d: $650 USD.
Satifaction Level of gaining 3 AAA Rated game engines: Priceless.
Torque Owner Ademys®
Ademys Studios
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