Torque 3D Development - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
by Brett Seyler · 03/20/2009 (7:53 pm) · 496 comments
Hey everyone! I know some of you saw the Gamasutra story that revealed some previously unreleased details about Torque 3D. I'm going to to try to clarify the whole picture, and fill in any gaps with this post here. Because it's GDC week, I'm already down here in SF doing some PR, talking about iTorque, and talking to some local studios about Torque and InstantAction. Needless to say, definitely keeping busy, so I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible and focus on the stuff I know you most want answered. We've got a big week ahead of us :) I'm guessing we'll get a lot more questions answered in the comments, so feel free to throw out anything I don't cover here.
When I first started blogging on our dev progress in December, I really didn't think we'd get as far as we have, as fast as we have. Torque 3D is really a huge step up from TGEA, particularly with respect to the toolset, usability, and content pipeline. I think users will react most to the effort we've put into the tools, and we'll be showing much more of that in the next few weeks. Of course, we've done some major subsystem updates as well (Web publishing, Terrain, Post processing, Particles, etc).
Licensing
I posted twice on pricing & licensing (one of which is still probably the most commented on post in GG history) and we definitely listened. These were the main takeaways from the roughly 400 comments (and numerous emails) I got since.
Quote:1. Support, especially ticketed support is in high demand. If GG can find a way to provide this, there are Torque developers willing to pay for it.
2. A low entry point to Torque is important, even if it means some restrictions in the EULA or deprecating some features.
3. Greater polish, usability, stability and overall quality are paramount attributes for a high-end Torque product.
4. A focus on tools, and particularly usability in the World Editor, is the most important area to address in Torque 3D.
So we took all that, and really put your opinions into action, both from a development standpoint, and with respect to pricing & licensing. Here is what we decided on:
1. Two versions available on the website, Basic and Professional, each with an Indie EULA.
2. Basic and Pro have a feature delta, with the Pro package being targeted at existing TGEA owners, or pro / prosumer developers and studios who might need to create custom code modifications for their game. The Basic package is targeted at new users, who want to learn the tools, and see what the engine is capable of. You will be able to us Basic to create a game, even though we expect it to ship as a binary only. When working on a larger team, artists and designers often don't need access to the source code, and in these cases, the Basic package will probably be a better fit, given that team members can share compiled binaries with one another.
3. For those looking for a custom EULA, perhaps for an entire studio or for a single project that doesn't qualify for our "Indie" license, we'll respond to inquiries to licensing@garagegames.com. I should note that we probably won't touch any requests to this address that aren't from developers serious about a more expansive license and with the means and ability to pay for it. For example, our typical Studio licenses start @ $6k for a small team, and go up from there.
Features
The Professional version of Torque 3D will include everything we've talked about thus far, and a lot of what still hasn't been revealed. For example, we're planning to include updates to Physics, new Terrain, a Decal Editor, a Datablock Editor, River / Road / Path tools, and a Material editor in the final release.
The Basic version will not include Web Publishing, Advanced Lighting, or the River & Road Tools, but everything else is in there. It will also be binary only. Again, this version is probably not a good fit for most of you who currently own TGEA. We're offering the big discount during the pre-order period only on Pro, and TGEA owners will not be able to apply any of their TGEA license fee to Torque 3D Basic. Only to Professional.
We've been talking about Genre Kits and Add-ons a bit as well. There's some really good stuff coming there, but we don't have any pricing to announce with that yet. There's the Luma Racing Kit (based on their game "Rev" published on InstantAction, and including some of those production assets). There's a much updated FPS Starter Kit with work from Max Gaming and Apparatus. There's Sickhead's Forest Kit (not sure if that name is final or not) which is *really* cool. It will let you paint down foliage, or just random objects to the terrain or into a scene. I've seen this in action. It's going to impress the hell out of people. There's also Gerhard's expansion (unnamed at present) which will probably include a lot of custom assets and functionality on top of what you've already seen.
The takeaway w/ Genre Kits and most of these Add-ons is that they will likely be Pro-only.
Pricing
So, let's break this down just a bit more clearly.
What will Torque 3D cost me?
If you own TGEA Indie (and I think this is most of you now), your cost to upgrade to Torque 3D Professional is $1000 - $200 (pre-order discount) - $295 (TGEA Indie contribution = $505If you own TGEA Commercial, you can apply your license to Torque 3D Professional the same way an Indie owner can with a final cost of $505. If you'd like something similar to a Commercial TGEA license for Torque 3D, you'll need to contact us directly.
If you own any other Torque products, you can still purchase TGEA and get the same discount described above for a limited time. The pre-order discount will expire when we release release the final Torque 3D build (expecting this to be in May at the moment). The first beta will be delivered to Torque 3D owners in April.
There is no pre-order available for Torque 3D Basic, and there is no discount on Basic for existing TGEA owners.
Why Pre-order?
Access to the Torque 3D Closed Beta -- First delivery in April An exclusive Torque 3D T-Shirt Torque 3D private forum access on GarageGames.com Up to $495 off the full version priceAs I mentioned before, I'm going to keep posting blogs all the way up to our release, and probably for a while thereafter. We've still got a lot to show.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #15.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#62
where??? am i blind or too shaky like junkie to get new gg stuff? ;)
03/21/2009 (7:20 am)
Quote:Michael Perry wrote:
People who own the Indie license now have the download activated in their account page
where??? am i blind or too shaky like junkie to get new gg stuff? ;)
#63
As I said in the World Editor post, you might want to have a look at the Collada Test, in the docs they show how the TSShapeConstructor is a lot more accessible to script - should be a small preview of more script level access to objects in game.
03/21/2009 (7:35 am)
@BenjaminAs I said in the World Editor post, you might want to have a look at the Collada Test, in the docs they show how the TSShapeConstructor is a lot more accessible to script - should be a small preview of more script level access to objects in game.
#64
(I remember my first ever Torque prototype had a Player riding on top of another, and I had to swap the player with another one using a different collision bounding box because I couldn't disable collisions via script and the rider and mount would collide with each other and never move.)
The consensus always was that you needed at least some degree of source code changes for any kind of product which wasn't a complete carbon copy of the Starter FPS, and thus a source-less license would be useless for anything other than fiddling around.
The upcoming component system refactor should address this issue, since I suppose it will split existing functionalities in building blocks that can be combined via script to re-create game elements like a Player, AiPlayer, Camera. However, Components are not part of the initial Torque3D launch and it's unclear if it will ever be or be saved for a future new product. So I at least hope a re-write of the Player and Camera class for making them more flexible is in the works, otherwise the Basic license could as well be labeled a "Tool license".
03/21/2009 (7:50 am)
@Benjamin: You bring some really valid questions. In past Torque versions you hit development barriers fairly quickly if you don't have access to (or isn't capable of modifying) the source code. The stock Player class is very rigid and you need to go down into the source for fairly simple things like camera-relative control instead of WASD, other camera behaviors or even switching between multiple walk animations.(I remember my first ever Torque prototype had a Player riding on top of another, and I had to swap the player with another one using a different collision bounding box because I couldn't disable collisions via script and the rider and mount would collide with each other and never move.)
The consensus always was that you needed at least some degree of source code changes for any kind of product which wasn't a complete carbon copy of the Starter FPS, and thus a source-less license would be useless for anything other than fiddling around.
The upcoming component system refactor should address this issue, since I suppose it will split existing functionalities in building blocks that can be combined via script to re-create game elements like a Player, AiPlayer, Camera. However, Components are not part of the initial Torque3D launch and it's unclear if it will ever be or be saved for a future new product. So I at least hope a re-write of the Player and Camera class for making them more flexible is in the works, otherwise the Basic license could as well be labeled a "Tool license".
#65
03/21/2009 (8:16 am)
I'm curious as to what state we can expect TG3D in "out of the box". I remember when TGEA(as TSE) was released, and it was not exactly ready for prime time. It took quite some time before it was really usable to a really full extent after it was made available. From everything I've seen, it looks like this won't be the case here, but I would still like to have a little more certainty.
#66
03/21/2009 (10:34 am)
May I ask why we aren't getting the advanced lighting in basic? I know it is a great price even without, yet I expected that to be in basic.
#67
That's so sad to me. Already planning these "content pack" things with features that should be standard in an AAA engine?
And $1000? The whole reason for people like me using Torque was because it was the cheapest around, you could invest $1000 in to something much better.
Oh, and one more thing. It seems like you guys are just releasing an engine to keep making money. Why do you think people licensed the UE3 engine? Because of all its NEW features. T3D? Looks to me like you're just trying to copy UE3, and that's why your engines go out of date so fast. While you guys are working to keep your engines in line with current tech, other companies are right now working on the latest and greatest.
My 2 cents.
03/21/2009 (10:35 am)
"There's Sickhead's Forest Kit (not sure if that name is final or not) which is *really* cool. It will let you paint down foliage, or just random objects to the terrain or into a scene. I've seen this in action. It's going to impress the hell out of people."That's so sad to me. Already planning these "content pack" things with features that should be standard in an AAA engine?
And $1000? The whole reason for people like me using Torque was because it was the cheapest around, you could invest $1000 in to something much better.
Oh, and one more thing. It seems like you guys are just releasing an engine to keep making money. Why do you think people licensed the UE3 engine? Because of all its NEW features. T3D? Looks to me like you're just trying to copy UE3, and that's why your engines go out of date so fast. While you guys are working to keep your engines in line with current tech, other companies are right now working on the latest and greatest.
My 2 cents.
#68
In all honesty how can that be said when they haven't even released the BETA yet?
03/21/2009 (11:13 am)
@NeillQuote:
And $1000? The whole reason for people like me using Torque was because it was the cheapest around, you could invest $1000 in to something much better.
In all honesty how can that be said when they haven't even released the BETA yet?
#69
Sickhead is their own company, why should they have to release their content for free with Torque 3D?
03/21/2009 (11:25 am)
@NeillSickhead is their own company, why should they have to release their content for free with Torque 3D?
#70
@Matt, I think Neills point is that we will have to spend extra money for functions that some of us expected to come built-in. I for one expressed hopes of these features in the feature-request thread.
[edit]
This is one of the things that rules out the basic version for me..
[/edit]
03/21/2009 (11:33 am)
Quote:It will let you paint down foliage, or just random objects to the terrain or into a scene.
Quote:Sickhead is their own company, why should they have to release their content for free with Torque 3D?
@Matt, I think Neills point is that we will have to spend extra money for functions that some of us expected to come built-in. I for one expressed hopes of these features in the feature-request thread.
[edit]
This is one of the things that rules out the basic version for me..
[/edit]
#71
Upgrade to TGEA: $145
T3D Pro Pre-ORder Price: $800
T3D Pro Upgrade DisCount: $295
Total COst to Upgrade to T3D Pro: $650???
03/21/2009 (11:42 am)
ok just want to clarify the upgrade path a bit because i do not own TGEA at the moment. If I upgrade to the TGEA Now will the upgrade Discount apply? for example:Upgrade to TGEA: $145
T3D Pro Pre-ORder Price: $800
T3D Pro Upgrade DisCount: $295
Total COst to Upgrade to T3D Pro: $650???
#73
Ah... now i understand... T3D Basic is THE new ShowToolPro. Isn't it?
Haha... sorry... just joking. ;-)
03/21/2009 (11:52 am)
It seems that T3D Basic is not a real option. Ah... now i understand... T3D Basic is THE new ShowToolPro. Isn't it?
Haha... sorry... just joking. ;-)
#74
I do have a question for the Sickhead people though regarding the Forest Kit. Is there any ETA on when this might be available?
03/21/2009 (12:06 pm)
@Neil: You say you can invest $1000 into something much better... Like what?I do have a question for the Sickhead people though regarding the Forest Kit. Is there any ETA on when this might be available?
#75
Will there be a porting guideline, similar to one that was provided for TGEA 1.8.1?
I'll take my answer off the air. Wait, I'm typing and not talking.
03/21/2009 (12:18 pm)
How much work (in a most general sense) will it be to port a game from 1.8.1 TGEA into the new product? (Both for source and for script). For example, three point oh seven times as much work as porting from 1.7.1 to 1.8.1 TGEA, or, dude, you should just start over with the new engine?Will there be a porting guideline, similar to one that was provided for TGEA 1.8.1?
I'll take my answer off the air. Wait, I'm typing and not talking.
#76
all i know is porting is to be made much easier from tgea.
seems as though allot of people are going over and over the same topics that have already been answered here in the blog.
03/21/2009 (12:28 pm)
Randy Condon i know they talked about this in one of there other blogs they are working on makeing porting easy to where a tgea project can just work right when you buy T3D. be for you release it think you will have to port it or maybe you don't maybe it will just be a auto port future that fixes everything for you. :Pall i know is porting is to be made much easier from tgea.
seems as though allot of people are going over and over the same topics that have already been answered here in the blog.
#77
(sorry if this has been asked, but i read most of it and saw nothing).
For one, why is the splash screen non removeable on pro, i mean 1000$ and you still have to show the splash screen (license says only studio can "waiver" (my guess is that means remove) the splash), that in itself is one of the only reason we are not gonna buy this engine, even though i been looking into this along time, its not professional of us to force end users to watch a splash screen, and we dont wish to come out that way, and 3000$+ is too much for us.
Second, 200$ off price until final release (prebuy), thats fine, if you are one of those who buys a car before seeing it spin and whats under the hood (blindbuying), sadly im not one of those who got 800$ to just flash away on something ive never seen run and checked if it has everything i need for my game idea (tech vise), i might end up buying something i cannot use and then i have spend (done before) 800$ on something i cant use.
If you go past a cloth shop and they have this COOL cloth on sale for alot cheaper, then you go to the bank and come back next day, and sale is over, back to normal price, will you still buy the cloth ? (most woudnt).
Just saying :)
Anyways, just me (and my team's) view on this.
03/21/2009 (12:47 pm)
I have some issues with this licensing, maybe its just me though.(sorry if this has been asked, but i read most of it and saw nothing).
For one, why is the splash screen non removeable on pro, i mean 1000$ and you still have to show the splash screen (license says only studio can "waiver" (my guess is that means remove) the splash), that in itself is one of the only reason we are not gonna buy this engine, even though i been looking into this along time, its not professional of us to force end users to watch a splash screen, and we dont wish to come out that way, and 3000$+ is too much for us.
Second, 200$ off price until final release (prebuy), thats fine, if you are one of those who buys a car before seeing it spin and whats under the hood (blindbuying), sadly im not one of those who got 800$ to just flash away on something ive never seen run and checked if it has everything i need for my game idea (tech vise), i might end up buying something i cannot use and then i have spend (done before) 800$ on something i cant use.
If you go past a cloth shop and they have this COOL cloth on sale for alot cheaper, then you go to the bank and come back next day, and sale is over, back to normal price, will you still buy the cloth ? (most woudnt).
Just saying :)
Anyways, just me (and my team's) view on this.
#78
03/21/2009 (12:53 pm)
@Bo Bjering - How many times have you played a AAA game that showed logos of various kits during a startup splash screen, such as Havok, FMOD, and Unreal? It is not uncommon for a license to state that you must display a logo or splash in some form for your game.
#79
Maybe, but once you choose a pro license, you usually have the choice.
What kind of splash screen we talking here, before game starts (popup before main window opens), logo on start of game (aka intro logo "video" thing), we can choose ? eg small logo in cornor of excample login screen ? or what.
The game studio's showing those "splash" screen and or intro video's dont do it for fun, they get something out of it, you can be sure of that, its there choice, and, theres PLENTY of AAA games that doesnt show engine/tech intro's, but only studio intro's (who made, and such).
Those showing NVIDIA intro's for excample, they get access to latest NVIDIA hardware and testing gear, those showing..... you get the idea.
@Matt (post below) -
That was hardly my point :)
03/21/2009 (1:01 pm)
@Michael Perry -Maybe, but once you choose a pro license, you usually have the choice.
What kind of splash screen we talking here, before game starts (popup before main window opens), logo on start of game (aka intro logo "video" thing), we can choose ? eg small logo in cornor of excample login screen ? or what.
The game studio's showing those "splash" screen and or intro video's dont do it for fun, they get something out of it, you can be sure of that, its there choice, and, theres PLENTY of AAA games that doesnt show engine/tech intro's, but only studio intro's (who made, and such).
Those showing NVIDIA intro's for excample, they get access to latest NVIDIA hardware and testing gear, those showing..... you get the idea.
@Matt (post below) -
That was hardly my point :)
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