Torque 3D Development - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
by Brett Seyler · 03/20/2009 (7:53 pm) · 496 comments
Hey everyone! I know some of you saw the Gamasutra story that revealed some previously unreleased details about Torque 3D. I'm going to to try to clarify the whole picture, and fill in any gaps with this post here. Because it's GDC week, I'm already down here in SF doing some PR, talking about iTorque, and talking to some local studios about Torque and InstantAction. Needless to say, definitely keeping busy, so I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible and focus on the stuff I know you most want answered. We've got a big week ahead of us :) I'm guessing we'll get a lot more questions answered in the comments, so feel free to throw out anything I don't cover here.
When I first started blogging on our dev progress in December, I really didn't think we'd get as far as we have, as fast as we have. Torque 3D is really a huge step up from TGEA, particularly with respect to the toolset, usability, and content pipeline. I think users will react most to the effort we've put into the tools, and we'll be showing much more of that in the next few weeks. Of course, we've done some major subsystem updates as well (Web publishing, Terrain, Post processing, Particles, etc).
Licensing
I posted twice on pricing & licensing (one of which is still probably the most commented on post in GG history) and we definitely listened. These were the main takeaways from the roughly 400 comments (and numerous emails) I got since.
Quote:1. Support, especially ticketed support is in high demand. If GG can find a way to provide this, there are Torque developers willing to pay for it.
2. A low entry point to Torque is important, even if it means some restrictions in the EULA or deprecating some features.
3. Greater polish, usability, stability and overall quality are paramount attributes for a high-end Torque product.
4. A focus on tools, and particularly usability in the World Editor, is the most important area to address in Torque 3D.
So we took all that, and really put your opinions into action, both from a development standpoint, and with respect to pricing & licensing. Here is what we decided on:
1. Two versions available on the website, Basic and Professional, each with an Indie EULA.
2. Basic and Pro have a feature delta, with the Pro package being targeted at existing TGEA owners, or pro / prosumer developers and studios who might need to create custom code modifications for their game. The Basic package is targeted at new users, who want to learn the tools, and see what the engine is capable of. You will be able to us Basic to create a game, even though we expect it to ship as a binary only. When working on a larger team, artists and designers often don't need access to the source code, and in these cases, the Basic package will probably be a better fit, given that team members can share compiled binaries with one another.
3. For those looking for a custom EULA, perhaps for an entire studio or for a single project that doesn't qualify for our "Indie" license, we'll respond to inquiries to licensing@garagegames.com. I should note that we probably won't touch any requests to this address that aren't from developers serious about a more expansive license and with the means and ability to pay for it. For example, our typical Studio licenses start @ $6k for a small team, and go up from there.
Features
The Professional version of Torque 3D will include everything we've talked about thus far, and a lot of what still hasn't been revealed. For example, we're planning to include updates to Physics, new Terrain, a Decal Editor, a Datablock Editor, River / Road / Path tools, and a Material editor in the final release.
The Basic version will not include Web Publishing, Advanced Lighting, or the River & Road Tools, but everything else is in there. It will also be binary only. Again, this version is probably not a good fit for most of you who currently own TGEA. We're offering the big discount during the pre-order period only on Pro, and TGEA owners will not be able to apply any of their TGEA license fee to Torque 3D Basic. Only to Professional.
We've been talking about Genre Kits and Add-ons a bit as well. There's some really good stuff coming there, but we don't have any pricing to announce with that yet. There's the Luma Racing Kit (based on their game "Rev" published on InstantAction, and including some of those production assets). There's a much updated FPS Starter Kit with work from Max Gaming and Apparatus. There's Sickhead's Forest Kit (not sure if that name is final or not) which is *really* cool. It will let you paint down foliage, or just random objects to the terrain or into a scene. I've seen this in action. It's going to impress the hell out of people. There's also Gerhard's expansion (unnamed at present) which will probably include a lot of custom assets and functionality on top of what you've already seen.
The takeaway w/ Genre Kits and most of these Add-ons is that they will likely be Pro-only.
Pricing
So, let's break this down just a bit more clearly.
What will Torque 3D cost me?
If you own TGEA Indie (and I think this is most of you now), your cost to upgrade to Torque 3D Professional is $1000 - $200 (pre-order discount) - $295 (TGEA Indie contribution = $505If you own TGEA Commercial, you can apply your license to Torque 3D Professional the same way an Indie owner can with a final cost of $505. If you'd like something similar to a Commercial TGEA license for Torque 3D, you'll need to contact us directly.
If you own any other Torque products, you can still purchase TGEA and get the same discount described above for a limited time. The pre-order discount will expire when we release release the final Torque 3D build (expecting this to be in May at the moment). The first beta will be delivered to Torque 3D owners in April.
There is no pre-order available for Torque 3D Basic, and there is no discount on Basic for existing TGEA owners.
Why Pre-order?
Access to the Torque 3D Closed Beta -- First delivery in April An exclusive Torque 3D T-Shirt Torque 3D private forum access on GarageGames.com Up to $495 off the full version priceAs I mentioned before, I'm going to keep posting blogs all the way up to our release, and probably for a while thereafter. We've still got a lot to show.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #15.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#42
easy as possible to apply to your scene. still not that much info on it but it will do i think. i don't think you was understanding what i was saying in that post but its ok the cloth new's is even better. seems as though is not going to be set up the way i was talking about but i might have to do it my self depending on how hard it will be for me. i am learning fast and allot with torque script so will see.
03/21/2009 (1:59 am)
o so physics up top the cloth is included in that physics part super good news then for me.easy as possible to apply to your scene. still not that much info on it but it will do i think. i don't think you was understanding what i was saying in that post but its ok the cloth new's is even better. seems as though is not going to be set up the way i was talking about but i might have to do it my self depending on how hard it will be for me. i am learning fast and allot with torque script so will see.
#43
Advanced Lighting sounds great to me as well as the shader additions.
But then I realized that there will be no external mesh viewer for artists. Every artist needs to get a license just to check a model. Creating a mesh viewer is not allowed with the lower licenses because it is no game.
The images do not show shadow mapping. Static objects do not have shadows. The trees look like they are just pasted into the scene, different or no lighting, flat appearance. Where is this advanced lighting? What do you mean by this term?
And up to now nobody mentioned how scene management works. What about zones and portals in Collada-indoor-levels? How to setup a zone without a tool like constructor?
In the end I feel a mixture of excitement but also a lot of doubting because of workflow issues, open questions and the weak presentation. I hope this will be cleared and solved because we are talking about a 1k product, it is no more a $99 software.
I am looking forward to more information.
03/21/2009 (2:01 am)
Thanks for this blog. The mentioning of the new editors (especially the data block and material editor) raised my heat beat because of excitement.Advanced Lighting sounds great to me as well as the shader additions.
But then I realized that there will be no external mesh viewer for artists. Every artist needs to get a license just to check a model. Creating a mesh viewer is not allowed with the lower licenses because it is no game.
The images do not show shadow mapping. Static objects do not have shadows. The trees look like they are just pasted into the scene, different or no lighting, flat appearance. Where is this advanced lighting? What do you mean by this term?
And up to now nobody mentioned how scene management works. What about zones and portals in Collada-indoor-levels? How to setup a zone without a tool like constructor?
In the end I feel a mixture of excitement but also a lot of doubting because of workflow issues, open questions and the weak presentation. I hope this will be cleared and solved because we are talking about a 1k product, it is no more a $99 software.
I am looking forward to more information.
#44
03/21/2009 (2:15 am)
Yey! March 24, 12:01.. *stands in line* 
#45
03/21/2009 (2:20 am)
hey! no pushing in line! 
#46
03/21/2009 (2:30 am)
@Frank, Brett posted a blog a couple weeks ago talking about the advanced lighting. I think they're still working on polishing up the shadows.
#47
And deferred shading is often called a dead end. It allows much lights but it has some heavily restrictions as well.
Nevertheless I am looking forward to see this in action in a real project.
I would also like to showcase our models and scenes at Dexsoft in T3D later on. But I think a 1000 $ product just to showcase some artwork is a heavy investment. Probably I have to stick to Showtool Pro without shaders and shadows.
03/21/2009 (2:48 am)
Gerald: Thanks for the link. But this is a rather small scene. I dont know whether the shadow mapping supports multi resolution mapping to cover bigger scenes. Besides that the shadows are flickering and display aliasing.And deferred shading is often called a dead end. It allows much lights but it has some heavily restrictions as well.
Nevertheless I am looking forward to see this in action in a real project.
I would also like to showcase our models and scenes at Dexsoft in T3D later on. But I think a 1000 $ product just to showcase some artwork is a heavy investment. Probably I have to stick to Showtool Pro without shaders and shadows.
#48
Thanks for the response. I understand your reasoning although I'd hope that most artists and scripters would understand that the primary value of their Basic license would be enabling them to use their work for commercial purposes.
But ok, fair enough, I'm happy to have a private discussion about it when the time is right.
03/21/2009 (2:49 am)
Matt : Thanks for the response. I understand your reasoning although I'd hope that most artists and scripters would understand that the primary value of their Basic license would be enabling them to use their work for commercial purposes.
But ok, fair enough, I'm happy to have a private discussion about it when the time is right.
#49
$505 is great but still alot of money, I for one needs to do some heavy saving to make ends meet :)
And, just to clarify, there will be no discount upgrade path after that date for us owning TGEA right?
03/21/2009 (3:02 am)
Any chance for to get a firm date when the pre-order period runs out?$505 is great but still alot of money, I for one needs to do some heavy saving to make ends meet :)
And, just to clarify, there will be no discount upgrade path after that date for us owning TGEA right?
#50
03/21/2009 (3:33 am)
Thanks Brett for fleshing out the details of the license. I am looking forward to the pre-order becoming available. I am also very excited about the hints at the 'Physics' update - maybe we will get to hear something about this at GDC ? :)
#51
@Gareth, Bethesda pays a *LOT* of money for their game engine, and still they aren't shipping the same tools with the games that come with the engine. They ship specialized tools that allow you to mod the game, but you're not getting Gamebryo minus commercial rights when you buy one of their games.
If you create specialized tools for modding your game I'm sure it would go over better with GG than shipping your game with the same tools you get for purchasing it.
03/21/2009 (3:35 am)
@Frank, some nice games are already using deferred shading well, so it's certainly not a dead end, it just takes a different approach to handling multiple materials. But as they mentioned in that blog, the lighting model in T3D is a hybrid model that is more video card friendly and less restrictive than deferred shading.@Gareth, Bethesda pays a *LOT* of money for their game engine, and still they aren't shipping the same tools with the games that come with the engine. They ship specialized tools that allow you to mod the game, but you're not getting Gamebryo minus commercial rights when you buy one of their games.
If you create specialized tools for modding your game I'm sure it would go over better with GG than shipping your game with the same tools you get for purchasing it.
#52
03/21/2009 (3:38 am)
that sounds like a good idea, maybe something for quark? they already have a torque exporter. 
#53
@Brett - Thanks for the blog, guess you've answered my question on what to spend some of my yearly bonus on, roll on pay day.
With the mention of genre kits being seperately purchased I'm wondering what genre kits/starter kits will come with the Pro version?
03/21/2009 (4:29 am)
@Jorgen - They've said they hope to ship in May so the pre-order would last til then, with one thing and another I'd imagine it's later in May than early May.@Brett - Thanks for the blog, guess you've answered my question on what to spend some of my yearly bonus on, roll on pay day.
With the mention of genre kits being seperately purchased I'm wondering what genre kits/starter kits will come with the Pro version?
#54
For moddable games the scripting system needs an extra layer on top of Torquescript, to prevent users from hijacking into the entire game and allow each game to control how moddable it is.
As for editors, I think the World Editor is the key tool required for modders, so it would be nice if we could buy a per-project redistribution license for the it. Maybe a specially-modified version, which saves missions as binary files encrypted using the license key so only a game using the same key can load such missions. While such setup can be cracked by anyone willing enough, it's enough to prevent casual usage of a specific game's World Editor for another game's production.
03/21/2009 (5:26 am)
@Gerald: You're right about the custom tools, but I think some internal changes will need to be done in Torque3D due to the advent of the Basic licensees, which are already simply modders.For moddable games the scripting system needs an extra layer on top of Torquescript, to prevent users from hijacking into the entire game and allow each game to control how moddable it is.
As for editors, I think the World Editor is the key tool required for modders, so it would be nice if we could buy a per-project redistribution license for the it. Maybe a specially-modified version, which saves missions as binary files encrypted using the license key so only a game using the same key can load such missions. While such setup can be cracked by anyone willing enough, it's enough to prevent casual usage of a specific game's World Editor for another game's production.
#55
Modders will need to be able to paint and sculpt terrain, to lay out objects and lights and paint rivers and roads and forests...it seems like a lot of work in this iteration of T3D went into those types of editor features. So my concern is, even if I strip them a bit, how stripped down can I really make the world editor before I cripple modding?
My worry is that, since GG spent that much effort and money on developing those tools, even though I trust that they are reasonable people, the reasonable price for allowing modders to use even somewhat stripped down versions might be beyond me. I'm just a guy funding this from his day job, I don't have deep pockets. It would be like the adventure kit all over again. I would have bought it in an instant except I cannot justify $5k for commercial use, despite how much I wanted it.
Like I said, I do understand GG's reasoning and I trust that they are reasonable people, but you will have to understand why this is a concern for me. And why it will play a role in deciding whether I move SoW from TGEA 1.8.1 to T3D.
I'll probably be in line with everyone else for the EA regardless, but I may not be able to port my game over. If licensing the editors costs $5K for example then the balance swings all the way back to sticking with TGEA 1.8.1. It's a simple matter of weighing cost vs gain. I like all that I'm seeing with T3D and I really like the discount, its more generous than I'd anticipated. But if the effective cost for me to release SoW on T3D is $5500 plus extra time spent stripping editors, compared to just using TGEA 1.8.1, then it just ain't ever happening. No rancor in that statement, just the way it is.
Anyway, don't want to turn this too negative, I appreciate Matt's response and that this can be further discussed in private in the future. Looking forward to GDC!
03/21/2009 (5:56 am)
@Gerald : Yeah, Manoel pretty much captures my point. I understand that Bethesda doesn't ship EVERY tool that comes with Gamebryo, but they ship a full-featured suite of world editing tools.Modders will need to be able to paint and sculpt terrain, to lay out objects and lights and paint rivers and roads and forests...it seems like a lot of work in this iteration of T3D went into those types of editor features. So my concern is, even if I strip them a bit, how stripped down can I really make the world editor before I cripple modding?
My worry is that, since GG spent that much effort and money on developing those tools, even though I trust that they are reasonable people, the reasonable price for allowing modders to use even somewhat stripped down versions might be beyond me. I'm just a guy funding this from his day job, I don't have deep pockets. It would be like the adventure kit all over again. I would have bought it in an instant except I cannot justify $5k for commercial use, despite how much I wanted it.
Like I said, I do understand GG's reasoning and I trust that they are reasonable people, but you will have to understand why this is a concern for me. And why it will play a role in deciding whether I move SoW from TGEA 1.8.1 to T3D.
I'll probably be in line with everyone else for the EA regardless, but I may not be able to port my game over. If licensing the editors costs $5K for example then the balance swings all the way back to sticking with TGEA 1.8.1. It's a simple matter of weighing cost vs gain. I like all that I'm seeing with T3D and I really like the discount, its more generous than I'd anticipated. But if the effective cost for me to release SoW on T3D is $5500 plus extra time spent stripping editors, compared to just using TGEA 1.8.1, then it just ain't ever happening. No rancor in that statement, just the way it is.
Anyway, don't want to turn this too negative, I appreciate Matt's response and that this can be further discussed in private in the future. Looking forward to GDC!
#56
More than anything else with Torque 3D and future development in general, I'm excited about genre kits. Many developers think in terms of "I want to make X type of game" rather than "I want to make a video game." These kits (plus our new toolset) really address a need to get prototyping different types of games quickly.
03/21/2009 (6:00 am)
@Andy: We are nearing completion on FPS and Racing Genre Kits, although there is no guarantee that those will be sold on launch day since we want them to work flawlessly with the core engine. There are also other kits in the works, but they are much farther out. More than anything else with Torque 3D and future development in general, I'm excited about genre kits. Many developers think in terms of "I want to make X type of game" rather than "I want to make a video game." These kits (plus our new toolset) really address a need to get prototyping different types of games quickly.
#57
I think this blog and comments/chat has pretty much answered most of my queries.
03/21/2009 (6:10 am)
So I upgrade from TGEA to a GG T-shirt for $505 ... and get a free copy of T3D. :DI think this blog and comments/chat has pretty much answered most of my queries.
#58
I like that the kits are monetized from the start, I think it will mean higher quality, more features and more likelihood of seeing some of the long desired kits like the RPG kit. But I'm curious as to how T3D will be setup out of the box?
And will there be some sort of Demo? I'd assume there would be, but how will it be different from T3D Basic? Will we be able to test-drive the tools? See the advanced lighting first-hand before buying?
03/21/2009 (6:15 am)
Hmmm, this brings up another question. Since the FPS and Racing kits are sold separately, what will the default T3D come with? The GDC demos? I like that the kits are monetized from the start, I think it will mean higher quality, more features and more likelihood of seeing some of the long desired kits like the RPG kit. But I'm curious as to how T3D will be setup out of the box?
And will there be some sort of Demo? I'd assume there would be, but how will it be different from T3D Basic? Will we be able to test-drive the tools? See the advanced lighting first-hand before buying?
#59
If you sell a license at that price, without source, then it can only mean the source is not a "must have" to finish a project of any genre (unlike TGE).
Is that so?
03/21/2009 (6:39 am)
Quote:My answer is that, like with any game engine, there are going to be things you can and can't do without source. With Torque Basic, we expect you'll be able to do a lot, and much more if you're working on a team with a member who has a Professional license to allow for source code changes.Except it is priced 250$ without source. For that price people will expect to be able to do everything in script (like I already can in TGB without using behaviors).
If you sell a license at that price, without source, then it can only mean the source is not a "must have" to finish a project of any genre (unlike TGE).
Is that so?
#60
preorder: - 200,-
TGEA Indi: - 295,-
AFX ???? - 85,-
----------
420,-
i hope .. but 505,- is ok ;) .. 372,38 € .. yep .. fair :)
03/21/2009 (6:54 am)
T3D Professional: 1000,-preorder: - 200,-
TGEA Indi: - 295,-
AFX ???? - 85,-
----------
420,-
i hope .. but 505,- is ok ;) .. 372,38 € .. yep .. fair :)
Associate Matt Fairfax
PopCap
Our thinking is that a moddable version of your game could potentially be very similar to the binary version of Torque 3D which we are selling as Basic. It is hard for us to ask scripters and artists to purchase a license to Torque 3D and then turn around and blindly allow anyone to hand out a "free" version of the same tools and features.
That said, we think modding is a great thing which can give games a much longer life than nearly anything else you can do. We are totally open to negotiating a deal with you to allow for modding of your game but it needs to be a conversation we have in private (to figure out the appropriate cost/features/style/etc your mod tools will take). We've had few enough moddable Torque games ship over the years that we think it won't be a burden on us or the developers to talk about it directly when the time is best (when you are getting close to shipping your game and know what the mod tools need to look like).