Torque 3D Development - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
by Brett Seyler · 03/20/2009 (7:53 pm) · 496 comments
Hey everyone! I know some of you saw the Gamasutra story that revealed some previously unreleased details about Torque 3D. I'm going to to try to clarify the whole picture, and fill in any gaps with this post here. Because it's GDC week, I'm already down here in SF doing some PR, talking about iTorque, and talking to some local studios about Torque and InstantAction. Needless to say, definitely keeping busy, so I'm going to try to keep this as short as possible and focus on the stuff I know you most want answered. We've got a big week ahead of us :) I'm guessing we'll get a lot more questions answered in the comments, so feel free to throw out anything I don't cover here.
When I first started blogging on our dev progress in December, I really didn't think we'd get as far as we have, as fast as we have. Torque 3D is really a huge step up from TGEA, particularly with respect to the toolset, usability, and content pipeline. I think users will react most to the effort we've put into the tools, and we'll be showing much more of that in the next few weeks. Of course, we've done some major subsystem updates as well (Web publishing, Terrain, Post processing, Particles, etc).
Licensing
I posted twice on pricing & licensing (one of which is still probably the most commented on post in GG history) and we definitely listened. These were the main takeaways from the roughly 400 comments (and numerous emails) I got since.
Quote:1. Support, especially ticketed support is in high demand. If GG can find a way to provide this, there are Torque developers willing to pay for it.
2. A low entry point to Torque is important, even if it means some restrictions in the EULA or deprecating some features.
3. Greater polish, usability, stability and overall quality are paramount attributes for a high-end Torque product.
4. A focus on tools, and particularly usability in the World Editor, is the most important area to address in Torque 3D.
So we took all that, and really put your opinions into action, both from a development standpoint, and with respect to pricing & licensing. Here is what we decided on:
1. Two versions available on the website, Basic and Professional, each with an Indie EULA.
2. Basic and Pro have a feature delta, with the Pro package being targeted at existing TGEA owners, or pro / prosumer developers and studios who might need to create custom code modifications for their game. The Basic package is targeted at new users, who want to learn the tools, and see what the engine is capable of. You will be able to us Basic to create a game, even though we expect it to ship as a binary only. When working on a larger team, artists and designers often don't need access to the source code, and in these cases, the Basic package will probably be a better fit, given that team members can share compiled binaries with one another.
3. For those looking for a custom EULA, perhaps for an entire studio or for a single project that doesn't qualify for our "Indie" license, we'll respond to inquiries to licensing@garagegames.com. I should note that we probably won't touch any requests to this address that aren't from developers serious about a more expansive license and with the means and ability to pay for it. For example, our typical Studio licenses start @ $6k for a small team, and go up from there.
Features
The Professional version of Torque 3D will include everything we've talked about thus far, and a lot of what still hasn't been revealed. For example, we're planning to include updates to Physics, new Terrain, a Decal Editor, a Datablock Editor, River / Road / Path tools, and a Material editor in the final release.






The Basic version will not include Web Publishing, Advanced Lighting, or the River & Road Tools, but everything else is in there. It will also be binary only. Again, this version is probably not a good fit for most of you who currently own TGEA. We're offering the big discount during the pre-order period only on Pro, and TGEA owners will not be able to apply any of their TGEA license fee to Torque 3D Basic. Only to Professional.
We've been talking about Genre Kits and Add-ons a bit as well. There's some really good stuff coming there, but we don't have any pricing to announce with that yet. There's the Luma Racing Kit (based on their game "Rev" published on InstantAction, and including some of those production assets). There's a much updated FPS Starter Kit with work from Max Gaming and Apparatus. There's Sickhead's Forest Kit (not sure if that name is final or not) which is *really* cool. It will let you paint down foliage, or just random objects to the terrain or into a scene. I've seen this in action. It's going to impress the hell out of people. There's also Gerhard's expansion (unnamed at present) which will probably include a lot of custom assets and functionality on top of what you've already seen.
The takeaway w/ Genre Kits and most of these Add-ons is that they will likely be Pro-only.
Pricing
So, let's break this down just a bit more clearly.
What will Torque 3D cost me?
If you own TGEA Indie (and I think this is most of you now), your cost to upgrade to Torque 3D Professional is $1000 - $200 (pre-order discount) - $295 (TGEA Indie contribution = $505If you own TGEA Commercial, you can apply your license to Torque 3D Professional the same way an Indie owner can with a final cost of $505. If you'd like something similar to a Commercial TGEA license for Torque 3D, you'll need to contact us directly.
If you own any other Torque products, you can still purchase TGEA and get the same discount described above for a limited time. The pre-order discount will expire when we release release the final Torque 3D build (expecting this to be in May at the moment). The first beta will be delivered to Torque 3D owners in April.
There is no pre-order available for Torque 3D Basic, and there is no discount on Basic for existing TGEA owners.
Why Pre-order?
Access to the Torque 3D Closed Beta -- First delivery in April
An exclusive Torque 3D T-Shirt
Torque 3D private forum access on GarageGames.com
Up to $495 off the full version priceAs I mentioned before, I'm going to keep posting blogs all the way up to our release, and probably for a while thereafter. We've still got a lot to show.
More sidebars and development blogs to come. This is post #15.
Torque 3D development blogs:
- Post #1 - Kickoff
- Post #2 - Apparatus and Warrior Camp
- Post #3 - Luma's racing kit
- Post #4 - Josh Engebretson and Web Publishing
- Post #5 - Pricing and Licensing
- Post #6 - Pricing and Licensing CONTINUED
- Post #7 - Wetness & Precipitation
- Post #8 - Screeen Space Ambient Occlusion (SSAO)
- Post #9 - Matt Langley and the Torque Launcher
- Post #10 - Chris Robertson and Collada
- Post #11 - Depth of Field
- Post #12 - Advanced Lighting
- Post #13 - Soft Particles
- Post #14 - World Editor
- Post #15 - Pricing and Licensing ANNOUNCED!
- Post #16 - GDC Live Edition
- Post #17 - River & Road Editors
- Post #18 - Beta is UP!
- Post #19 - Light Rays, Undercity, Material Editor
- Post #20 - Mass Market Hardware
- Post #21 - Beta: Part Deux
- Post #22 - Marching Towards Beta 3
- Post #23 - pureLIGHT
- Post #24 - Lighting, Terrain, and Cloth
- Post #25 - Beta 3!
- Post #26 - Coming Soon!
About the author
Since 2007, I've done my best to steer Torque's development and brand toward the best opportunities in games middleware.
#22
We are starting it next week and expect that we will ship Torque 3D sometime in May (this is a rough estimate).
We will start our Beta cycle in April and will work closely with the Preorder owners to make sure that Torque 3D is the best product possible.
03/20/2009 (11:08 pm)
The Preorder will last until Torque 3D ships.We are starting it next week and expect that we will ship Torque 3D sometime in May (this is a rough estimate).
We will start our Beta cycle in April and will work closely with the Preorder owners to make sure that Torque 3D is the best product possible.
#23
03/20/2009 (11:15 pm)
Not sure if I've missed anything about this or not, but will Torque 3D and it's pre-release betas be available for both Mac and PC, or PC/Windows only?
#24
If the decision comes down to delaying a Windows Beta significantly in order to have a Mac Beta we will push the Windows Beta sooner rather than later since most of the bugs found and fixed in a Windows Beta will also help the Mac Beta.
As I said, we will make a strong effort but I can't promise that it will be there on day one.
03/20/2009 (11:22 pm)
We are going to make a strong effort to provide Mac versions of the Betas but there are some pretty drastic changes to the engine that are lagging a little behind on the Mac side.If the decision comes down to delaying a Windows Beta significantly in order to have a Mac Beta we will push the Windows Beta sooner rather than later since most of the bugs found and fixed in a Windows Beta will also help the Mac Beta.
As I said, we will make a strong effort but I can't promise that it will be there on day one.
#25
I am actualy 14 and own a copy of TGE 1.5.2 but Torque 3D looks great and am planning on buying it (at some point)...so:
1. When you say that Basic will be in binary source...what does this mean, a whole bunch of 1's and 0's?
2. When you say that Basic deosn't have Genre Kit compatability, does that mean it won't come with any genre kits? and if not...will we be able to purchase them though after?
3. Why of all things is Advanced Lighting not included in Basic?
4. Is it in the end set up to encourage people to buy the Pro version...because it appears as if important things like Source and Genre Kits are missing
5. Will there be Indie and Commercial versions of each package? and if so, is the prive stated the indie or commercial price?
From Max
Great work though!! :D
03/21/2009 (12:12 am)
I have a question that you might say "um...why woudl we do that" to...but here it goes:I am actualy 14 and own a copy of TGE 1.5.2 but Torque 3D looks great and am planning on buying it (at some point)...so:
1. When you say that Basic will be in binary source...what does this mean, a whole bunch of 1's and 0's?
2. When you say that Basic deosn't have Genre Kit compatability, does that mean it won't come with any genre kits? and if not...will we be able to purchase them though after?
3. Why of all things is Advanced Lighting not included in Basic?
4. Is it in the end set up to encourage people to buy the Pro version...because it appears as if important things like Source and Genre Kits are missing
5. Will there be Indie and Commercial versions of each package? and if so, is the prive stated the indie or commercial price?
From Max
Great work though!! :D
#26
Now you know what I'm going to ask don't you.......yea that's right where the heck is that drop of iTge I was waiting for?
03/21/2009 (12:13 am)
Sounds great and as I'll only need to pay 505 dollars I guess I'm in for the pre-order.Now you know what I'm going to ask don't you.......yea that's right where the heck is that drop of iTge I was waiting for?
#27
03/21/2009 (12:16 am)
@Peter - People who own the Indie license now have the download activated in their account page.
#28
Well why didn't you say so man! Your sign still says pre-order!
Er I'm talking about iTGE for anyone skipping to the end of the posts without reading them :)
Summary for you lazy people
* Torque 3D will be substantially discounted for anyone who owns TGEA and pre-orders.
* Pricing and license for it is very good.
* You really shouldn't skip all the way to the end of a forum!
And...Finally, I've been jokingly pursuing Michael across the forums to get a time for the drop of iTge. The they go and stealth drop it behind my back! ;)
Better go check my CC has the necessary space on it!
Edit: And my wireless keyboard can't keep up with my typing and drops keys...
03/21/2009 (12:31 am)
@MichaelWell why didn't you say so man! Your sign still says pre-order!
Er I'm talking about iTGE for anyone skipping to the end of the posts without reading them :)
Summary for you lazy people
* Torque 3D will be substantially discounted for anyone who owns TGEA and pre-orders.
* Pricing and license for it is very good.
* You really shouldn't skip all the way to the end of a forum!
And...Finally, I've been jokingly pursuing Michael across the forums to get a time for the drop of iTge. The they go and stealth drop it behind my back! ;)
Better go check my CC has the necessary space on it!
Edit: And my wireless keyboard can't keep up with my typing and drops keys...
#29
2) i don't know 100% but i don't think the pro or basic is coming with any kits they are being release on there own. thats why basic don't have kit support as kits are source coded and the basic don't come with source so that is why kits cant be supported for it. :P
3) like they said the basic is mostly intended for artists why would a artiest need lighting that what the coder will do not the artiest he just need to place the objects maybe and thats basically all.
5)the studio price is the commercial lol but that commercial will be different based on each studio as you have to contact GG for the studio pricing.
the rest i don't know and i could be wrong on some fo these but i think i am right on each one.
03/21/2009 (12:32 am)
ok i think i can give some info to Maximillian Brewer.2) i don't know 100% but i don't think the pro or basic is coming with any kits they are being release on there own. thats why basic don't have kit support as kits are source coded and the basic don't come with source so that is why kits cant be supported for it. :P
3) like they said the basic is mostly intended for artists why would a artiest need lighting that what the coder will do not the artiest he just need to place the objects maybe and thats basically all.
5)the studio price is the commercial lol but that commercial will be different based on each studio as you have to contact GG for the studio pricing.
the rest i don't know and i could be wrong on some fo these but i think i am right on each one.
#30
@Maximillian:
Brandon gave some good answers...
1. When you say that Basic will be in binary source...what does this mean, a whole bunch of 1's and 0's?
This means you will get an already compiled application to run the engine and tools with, but not the C++ source code. You will get most of the tools (see Brett's comments for more details on that)and you will get scripts (so you can script).
2. When you say that Basic deosn't have Genre Kit compatability, does that mean it won't come with any genre kits? and if not...will we be able to purchase them though after?
That means when we sell a genre kit on our site you will need a Pro version to use it.
3. Why of all things is Advanced Lighting not included in Basic?
It seems like one of the more obvious choices for a feature delta since it isn't something that is needed, but something ideal to achieve the highest visual quality and for games that utilize higher end hardware. If you get Pro you can use the Advanced Lighting. If you work on a team with someone who has a Pro license they can share a binary with you that uses Advanced Lighting, so this seems to be the most useful setup for most users.
4. Is it in the end set up to encourage people to buy the Pro version...because it appears as if important things like Source and Genre Kits are missing
Partially yes, Pro offers the most features so we would obviously recommend it to most people. If you already own TGEA there are some great discounts offered which gives a really compelling reason for existing users to upgrade to Pro. Binary is a great option for artists or scripters that don't need source. Both version have a great value.
5. Will there be Indie and Commercial versions of each package? and if so, is the prive stated the indie or commercial price?
Brett points out the the prices mentioned $250 and $1000 are indie prices.
03/21/2009 (12:42 am)
@Peter: haha, I love your summary for the "lazy" :)@Maximillian:
Brandon gave some good answers...
1. When you say that Basic will be in binary source...what does this mean, a whole bunch of 1's and 0's?
This means you will get an already compiled application to run the engine and tools with, but not the C++ source code. You will get most of the tools (see Brett's comments for more details on that)and you will get scripts (so you can script).
2. When you say that Basic deosn't have Genre Kit compatability, does that mean it won't come with any genre kits? and if not...will we be able to purchase them though after?
That means when we sell a genre kit on our site you will need a Pro version to use it.
3. Why of all things is Advanced Lighting not included in Basic?
It seems like one of the more obvious choices for a feature delta since it isn't something that is needed, but something ideal to achieve the highest visual quality and for games that utilize higher end hardware. If you get Pro you can use the Advanced Lighting. If you work on a team with someone who has a Pro license they can share a binary with you that uses Advanced Lighting, so this seems to be the most useful setup for most users.
4. Is it in the end set up to encourage people to buy the Pro version...because it appears as if important things like Source and Genre Kits are missing
Partially yes, Pro offers the most features so we would obviously recommend it to most people. If you already own TGEA there are some great discounts offered which gives a really compelling reason for existing users to upgrade to Pro. Binary is a great option for artists or scripters that don't need source. Both version have a great value.
5. Will there be Indie and Commercial versions of each package? and if so, is the prive stated the indie or commercial price?
Brett points out the the prices mentioned $250 and $1000 are indie prices.
#31
03/21/2009 (12:47 am)
oops matt answered so no point
#33
Are you guys planning on any easy upgrade path from basic to pro?
The only reason I ask is that it would seem that Basic could get pretty claustrophobic for a developer who finds himself more deeply involved in a project than he initially anticipated. I understood the delta between TGE, and TGEA. That was only 100 extra bones however. $1000 relative to $250 is quite the difference.
If this has already been addressed, feel free to let me know so that I can face-palm accordingly.
Hope to see you guys at the conference!
-Chris
03/21/2009 (1:00 am)
This is looking great so far guys! I've only one question to ask for the financially impaired:Are you guys planning on any easy upgrade path from basic to pro?
The only reason I ask is that it would seem that Basic could get pretty claustrophobic for a developer who finds himself more deeply involved in a project than he initially anticipated. I understood the delta between TGE, and TGEA. That was only 100 extra bones however. $1000 relative to $250 is quite the difference.
If this has already been addressed, feel free to let me know so that I can face-palm accordingly.
Hope to see you guys at the conference!
-Chris
#34
03/21/2009 (1:04 am)
@Chris: We'll have a simple option to go from Basic to Pro, exactly for the circumstance you describe. It will just be based on the price difference.
#35
The overall licensing scheme seems OK for me, I thank you on that point.
One question : can you elaborate about the new physic engine in Torque3D please.
03/21/2009 (1:14 am)
The price is up a bit from TGEA, but I hope the engine is up a lot too, in features and usability : it seems…The overall licensing scheme seems OK for me, I thank you on that point.
One question : can you elaborate about the new physic engine in Torque3D please.
#36
03/21/2009 (1:22 am)
We'll probably do one of these blogs just on physics too, but physics is one of the least well-defined features for release. We have a sort of PhysX custom hybrid system (aslo based on networked ODE, which nearly got finished in and of itself) thats mostly networked. As you probably know, networking is what makes physics hard. Doing single player physics using existing libraries is easy.
#37
www.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/84039/1#comment-597965
i still still buy the preoder but i still want more info on this. :P
i got payed today and already sent money out so its read on Wednesday. i have liked nothing but T3D from the start cant wait to get my hand on it.
though its sad that the cloth is not coming out for it i really like his cloth system who knows what the price of the upgrade for cloth will be. i would think that will be one of the upgrades i just hope its not a hole lot for that upgrade as i rather have it come with the price of the engine. then it will really make it worth the engine price. like i said i got so many ideas just for the cloth system if its built right that is.
o and one thing to add in can i be the first to hit all hose cups in that picture. thats allot of cups stacked on top of each other where you guys get them all. also why you guys spending time building up cups instead of adding T3D stuff. :P looks like they still not working you guys that hard if you got spare time for doing that.
03/21/2009 (1:27 am)
theres only one question i have had kind of been waiting on it today. all i really want is a picture. :Pwww.garagegames.com/community/forums/viewthread/84039/1#comment-597965
i still still buy the preoder but i still want more info on this. :P
i got payed today and already sent money out so its read on Wednesday. i have liked nothing but T3D from the start cant wait to get my hand on it.
though its sad that the cloth is not coming out for it i really like his cloth system who knows what the price of the upgrade for cloth will be. i would think that will be one of the upgrades i just hope its not a hole lot for that upgrade as i rather have it come with the price of the engine. then it will really make it worth the engine price. like i said i got so many ideas just for the cloth system if its built right that is.
o and one thing to add in can i be the first to hit all hose cups in that picture. thats allot of cups stacked on top of each other where you guys get them all. also why you guys spending time building up cups instead of adding T3D stuff. :P looks like they still not working you guys that hard if you got spare time for doing that.
#38
if one of the GG employee's could be so kind as to have a look at the message and get back to me real soon, I would be most greatful.
thanks.
03/21/2009 (1:32 am)
I have just sent a message via the "contact us" page on this site regarding payment for the pre-order, I'll be one of the first to pre-order, an opportunity to get a true AAA engine at $505 is a deal not to be overlooked.if one of the GG employee's could be so kind as to have a look at the message and get back to me real soon, I would be most greatful.
thanks.
#39
03/21/2009 (1:35 am)
@Brandon: We're going to try to make the wetness / precipitation simulation as easy as possible to apply to your scene. We're also going to show the cloth physics pretty soon. I may even have some video captures on the way from Gerhard right this moment :)
#40
Personally, with SoW, one of my core promises to my community has been that the game will be moddable. I've made this promise quite a few times, publicly. Like the Elder Scrolls games or NWN, I would like to encourage community contributions to a shared pool of mods that people can load up and extend their experience with. I think it is EXTREMELY beneficial to an RPG community, it extends the perceived value of your game and thus results in more sales.
I do not, however, think that such modding communities pose any real threat to the game studios that enable them. The ES mod communities aren't competition for Bethesda, nor do they harm any of the tools makers that Bethesda licenses tech like their engine from. Modders rarely produce anything like a full, finished game. And, since those mods are built off your commercial product, they cannot sell them if they did.
So, with that in mind, could I ask the reasoning behind not allowing the shipping of the editors with T3D? Brett indicated that GG doesn't want editors shipped which could be used to make a game. I dunno, I think that is playing it a bit TOO defensively. The odds of someone taking the RPG I've spent 4 years of blood and sweat on and making a completely new game out of it just because they have editors to lay out some stages and characters is remote. And they would still not be able to sell it because it is built off my game and as such all mods are non-commercial only.
This just seems like an extremely unlikely method of attempting to circumvent license agreements to me. Which means I have to question removing the option of enabling modders (or making it damn expensive) for those of us who want such things, just to prevent against that very remove case.
I'd be happy to leave out the Material editor, for example. But things that let players layout stages, well, that I want.
03/21/2009 (1:37 am)
I'd like to talk about the shipping editors thing a bit more. I'm excited about T3D and the massive ea price discount is almost irresistible, but I have to say I was fairly disappointed to read that we can't ship editors with our games.Personally, with SoW, one of my core promises to my community has been that the game will be moddable. I've made this promise quite a few times, publicly. Like the Elder Scrolls games or NWN, I would like to encourage community contributions to a shared pool of mods that people can load up and extend their experience with. I think it is EXTREMELY beneficial to an RPG community, it extends the perceived value of your game and thus results in more sales.
I do not, however, think that such modding communities pose any real threat to the game studios that enable them. The ES mod communities aren't competition for Bethesda, nor do they harm any of the tools makers that Bethesda licenses tech like their engine from. Modders rarely produce anything like a full, finished game. And, since those mods are built off your commercial product, they cannot sell them if they did.
So, with that in mind, could I ask the reasoning behind not allowing the shipping of the editors with T3D? Brett indicated that GG doesn't want editors shipped which could be used to make a game. I dunno, I think that is playing it a bit TOO defensively. The odds of someone taking the RPG I've spent 4 years of blood and sweat on and making a completely new game out of it just because they have editors to lay out some stages and characters is remote. And they would still not be able to sell it because it is built off my game and as such all mods are non-commercial only.
This just seems like an extremely unlikely method of attempting to circumvent license agreements to me. Which means I have to question removing the option of enabling modders (or making it damn expensive) for those of us who want such things, just to prevent against that very remove case.
I'd be happy to leave out the Material editor, for example. But things that let players layout stages, well, that I want.

Torque 3D Owner Bruce Wallace